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Posted: 5/5/2003 4:39:24 AM EDT
[url]http://www.nbc5.com/news/2178638/detail.html[/url] Police, Federal Authorities Seize 400 Guns From Suburban Home Homeowner In Custody POSTED: 3:48 p.m. CDT May 4, 2003 NORTH RIVERSIDE, Ill. -- Federal authorities and officers from several local police agencies raided a west suburban home and seized more than 400 guns, officials said Sunday. Agents from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, along with police officers from Chicago, Illinois State Police and Maywood, executed a state search warrant at a home at 8636 6th Ave. in North Riverside at about 7:45 p.m. Saturday, ATF spokesman Tom Ahern said. Once inside, officers found about 420 handguns, shotguns, rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition, Ahern said Sunday morning. Authorities arrested the homeowner. They believe he is involved in gunrunning and firearm trafficking, including the sale of weapons to criminals, according to Ahern. Anyone selling firearms is required to run background checks on their buyers and wait several days before the transaction is completed as specified in the 1994 Brady Bill -- a requirement authorities said the homeowner ignored. The man, who is in his 60s, was being questioned by authorities Sunday at the Broadview police station as officials from the Cook County State's Attorney and U.S. Attorney offices worked on possible charges, Ahern said. Ahern added that the seized weapons and bullets would be entered into the National Integrated Ballistics Identification Network, a national database that can determine whether any of the guns were used in previous crimes, or whether the bullets used were similar to others used in crimes.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:11:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 5:12:55 AM EDT by FiveO]
Yes, if you are [b]involved in gunrunning and firearm trafficking, including the sale of weapons to criminals[/b] we will take your guns. You make an excellent point...??? [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:15:52 AM EDT
Just like good little "Worker Bees"! "Vee Ver Onlee Duuink Vat Vee Verr Tolt Mein Furher!"
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:20:57 AM EDT
The question here is he really a gunrunner or a collector? Does he sell to felons? Does he own stolen firearms? Has any of the weapons he owns ever been used in the commission of a crime? If he is not a collector, and yes is the answer to any of the questions, then they have a case against him. If he is a collector, and the only arms he bought and sold were as private sales with people he knows, then the only thing that makes him a criminal is the Brady Law. The article does not say if he has a FFL. Of course this is in Illinois. Just having that many fiearms could make him a suspect for a lot of things. If he has not done anything wrong, and the investigation confirms this, then they should return his firearms. If they don't, then it is a confiscation for no other purpose. If he hasn't dotted his I's, and crossed his T's, then it is the failure to obey a law that has made him a criminal. A big legal battle will be underway to prove criminal intent. If there is no criminal intent, then the law itself should be questioned. Now, if this guy really does sell guns to criminals and knows it, then throw the book at him. This looks like a case that should be followed. Bilster
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:24:45 AM EDT
Depends if he was IN FACT running, trafficking, or otherwise engaged in illegal selling, or if the "authorities" even had evidence. Note that the report said "believe." That would be an interesting new standard for a raid instead of "probable cause." A commie media report certainly would have used a stronger word than "believe" if they thought they could get away with it. Sounds to me like all they had was some information he had a lot of guns. Then, it was commie Illinois (rhymes with annoys).
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:29:52 AM EDT
Give this time to play out, thats all I have to say! Jason
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:43:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 5:44:12 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:53:26 AM EDT
david koresh was also a gun runner...er...so i was told. if the guy is guilty of the stated charges...good bust. if he is just a collector...i hope he ends up a millionaire.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:55:19 AM EDT
I think FiveO is right on this one. So is CamyBob on his either/or scenario... Time will tell...
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:55:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: For the record, I have one gun and one box of shells, just in case. [:D]
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"Beware the man with only one gun, for he likely knows how to use it."
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:56:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: david koresh was also a gun runner...er...so i was told. ...if he is just a collector...i hope he ends up a millionaire.
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The downside to that is the $$ that he gets comes from you and me....NOT the "Bad Guys"!
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:36:18 AM EDT
He only had 400 guns........hummmmmmm in Texas we call that a good start![beer]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:42:49 AM EDT
what that article did not mention was that last week, in maywood, a goofball took an ak47 and shot up a group of people, if i remeber right 7 or 8 people shot. reading between the lines here i think that this guy must have been the source. maywood illinois is a hot spot for gangs, drugs and guns. i would bet 100 cyber bucks the local cops found a snitch and this is the guy that sold the ak illeaglly.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:43:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:. if the guy is guilty of the stated charges...good bust. if he is just a collector...i hope he ends up a millionaire.
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My thoughts exactly Campy! EricE
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:48:11 AM EDT
illegal firearms is an oxymoron.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:51:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 6:52:52 AM EDT by Paul]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:52:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tequilabob: what that article did not mention was that last week, in maywood, a goofball took an ak47 and shot up a group of people, if i remeber right 7 or 8 people shot. reading between the lines here i think that this guy must have been the source. maywood illinois is a hot spot for gangs, drugs and guns. i would bet 100 cyber bucks the local cops found a snitch and this is the guy that sold the ak illeaglly.
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Aha!!
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:02:21 AM EDT
I just hope the guy gets cleared if he's innocent to keep the gun snatchers from using this against rightful and responsible gun owners. I see the crap going down in Illinois and it's actually quite scary.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:27:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red_Beard: [url]http://www.nbc5.com/news/2178638/detail.html[/url] Anyone selling firearms is required to run background checks on their buyers and wait several days before the transaction is completed as specified in the 1994 Brady Bill -- a requirement authorities said the homeowner ignored.
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[bs] Did anyone else catch that? If thats why they raided his house, then he must have been a dealer or else they would all be private transactions, which would mean he wouldn't have needed to do a background check....
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:22:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FiveO: Yes, if you are [b]involved in gunrunning and firearm trafficking, including the sale of weapons to criminals[/b] we will take your guns. You make an excellent point...???
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Just like a cop!! Assume he is guilty and take all the guns. Then say, Yup we will take your guns.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 10:12:05 AM EDT
I saw this on the news last night. The agent who talked to the cameras said they have an "air tight case" against him.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:12:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
Originally Posted By FiveO: Yes, if you are [b]involved in gunrunning and firearm trafficking, including the sale of weapons to criminals[/b] we will take your guns. You make an excellent point...???
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Just like a cop!! Assume he is guilty and take all the guns. Then say, Yup we will take your guns.[rolleyes]
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Yes, just like a cop... Investigate a matter then act on it... Can you believe that shit?! You do realize that [b]PROBABLE CAUSE[/b] is required for the issuance of a search warrant right? Jesus some of ya'll wear some serious blinders. Ya know I'm gonna let ya in on a little secret. [b]Some[/b] gun owners [b]are[/b] bad, bad people and do not need nor should have guns.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:32:31 PM EDT
Well, if he is quilty of what he is accused, especially knowingly selling to criminals, then he SHOULD be taken down. I'll have to wait a while and see how this developes, but if he's innocent he should sue the crap out of them. Bottom line, it's too early to tell. Good point though on the probable cause FiveO - that's a clue they might have a rightious case. If they do then they have removed another piece of scum from the street.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:38:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FiveO: Yes, just like a cop... Investigate a matter then act on it... Can you believe that shit?! You do realize that [b]PROBABLE CAUSE[/b] is required for the issuance of a search warrant right? Jesus some of ya'll wear some serious blinders. Ya know I'm gonna let ya in on a little secret. [b]Some[/b] gun owners [b]are[/b] bad, bad people and do not need nor should have guns.
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Yes just like a cop to assume probable means guilty. Let me let ya in on a little secret. probable adj 1: [red]likely but not certain to be or become true or real;[/red] "a likely result"; "he foresaw a probable loss" [syn: likely, plausible] [ant: improbable] 2: [red]apparently destined;[/red] "the probable consequences of going ahead with the scheme" n : an applicant likely to be chosen. Jeez what was I thinking. A cop has [b]NEVER[/b] arrested anyone without probable cause. [b]Some[/b] of you cops have no business being trusted interacting with citizens.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:39:36 PM EDT
As said before FiveO, there is nothing obvious yet in this case, only time will tell. Unfortunately in this day and age, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. (That said, even after found innocent you may still be looked at as guilty by many.[:(])
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:49:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_408: As said before FiveO, there is nothing obvious yet in this case, only time will tell. Unfortunately in this day and age, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. (That said, even after found innocent you may still be looked at as guilty by many.[:(])
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Only if your name is OJ. Then you would deserve it anyway, regardless of what those 12 idiots thought. Stay away from Minute Maid. Haven't you heard? OJ kills. Anyway, I'd like to hear the outcome of this investigation and arrest. The BATF have proven themselves incompetant in the past, so much so that the public has lost much of their trust in them. They can't afford any more screw-ups.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:52:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:53:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 7:55:19 PM EDT by FiveO]
Originally Posted By Sniper_408: As said before FiveO, there is nothing obvious yet in this case, only time will tell. Unfortunately in this day and age, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. (That said, even after found innocent you may still be looked at as guilty by many.[:(])
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I fully agree, it just chafes my ass that so many here are so damned quick to cast doubt on a group of LEOs rather than on someone identified as a suspect in a crime like this. With this group, whom I consider to be peers, I (we) am too frequently presumed guilty of violating rights and running roughshod on the Constitution which I swore to protect. That gets me. Let me tell you, if I have worked my case to the point where it is time to get a SW, you are already a had-ass. The SW is just polishing the apple and siezing evidence and/or property. Rip, that is a great definition of probable. Try looking up Probable Cause. Websters [b]probable cause[/b] Function: noun Date: circa 1676: a reasonable ground for supposing that a charge is well-founded [red]Legal Dictionary [b]probable cause[/b] n. sufficient reason based upon known facts to believe a crime has been committed or that certain property is connected with a crime. Probable cause must exist for a law enforcement officer to make an arrest without a warrant, search without a warrant, or seize property in the belief the items were evidence of a crime. Technically, probable cause has to exist prior to arrest, search or seizure.[/red] And Sir, let me tell you THIS officer has NEVER arrested without it nor have I EVER had an arrest tossed out.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:15:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I have known many people who dealt guns on the side, and none ever had many in hand at any one time. Those who traffic in firearms want to move them fats, and nobody is going to do the huge volume required to have 400 on hand. There is only one way to accumulate 400 firearms, and that is be a serious collector. Of course, many times in the past being a serious collector has been enought to make the BATF and or local authorities want to bust you. I bet when it is all said and done, this guy turns out to be a collector who was targeted by the BATF or locals (or the very anti-gun IL state LEO's) simply because he was known to have a lot of guns. And I would bet all they have him on is doing a private sale to an undercover officer. I could be wrong, but from all the cases I have seen the BATF involved in that involved a single person owning this quanity it has been a collector, and always a technical violation. Time will tell if I am correct.
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Possible, but there is one other way. He's a fence for stolen guns. Not unusual to do a search warrant on one of these guys and turn up a truckload. Ever hear of a stolen collection? How about 6 of them at one fence? It's happened to us on more than one occasion.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:41:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: illegal firearms is an oxymoron.
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word
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 11:23:41 PM EDT
I haven't seen bad people, criminals or felons in my copy of the Constitution. Maybe mine is missing that part. TS
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 11:29:58 PM EDT
I never thought they wouldn't do it to begin with, they just follow orders like good little boys and girls.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:06:35 AM EDT
Wow, another 'upstanding know-it-all citizens against the ignorant, jackbooted thugs' post. What fun!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:11:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 2:12:00 AM EDT by Johnphin]
Originally Posted By Sparky315: Wow, another 'upstanding know-it-all citizens against the ignorant, jackbooted thugs' post. What fun!
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If the laws [i]are not[/i] so simple as to allow the citizens to "know-it-all," then perhaps they should change the laws.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:34:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TigerStripe: I haven't seen bad people, criminals or felons in my copy of the Constitution. Maybe mine is missing that part. TS
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TS I guess we were both cheated neither does my copy, give any rights to bad people, criminals, shitbirds, felons, thugs, etc. etc. This issue with the 400+ guns for this guy in the area he is in does sound awful screwy. If he is guilty he needs to die in prison, if he is an avid gun collector fine give his shit back to him and he deserves compensation for his trouble, but I bet they have more on him than just word of mouth from a pissed off neighbor.[;)]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:58:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By nwatson99: If he is an avid gun collector fine give his shit back to him and he deserves compensation for his trouble
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Dont hold your breath!! Gun Grabbers dont give guns back! Leagal or not.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:04:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 4:05:57 AM EDT by AR-10]
Ahern added that the seized weapons and bullets would be entered into the National Integrated Ballistics Identification Network, a national database that can determine whether any of the guns were used in previous crimes, or whether the bullets used were similar to others used in crimes.
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Whether he is guilty of what they suspect or not, this will probably be enough to assure he never gets any property back from the state.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:10:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
Originally Posted By nwatson99: If he is an avid gun collector fine give his shit back to him and he deserves compensation for his trouble
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Don't hold your breath!! Gun Grabbers don't give guns back! Legal or not.
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I have never seen a Firearm or Firearms that were confiscated and not returned if they were legal. Meaning not stolen, used in crimes. Do you actually think they would just bust into his house with ATF, Explosive Techs., City Kitties, and all the bells and whistles just for having a large amount of guns? That cat was up to something and he just got busted.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:40:23 AM EDT
damn cops, the guy arrested is an ex cop, and i raise my bet to 200 cyber bucks this guy is dirty as a chicago politician Federal charges are expected to be filed against a man who was detained Saturday after law enforcement officials found hundreds of guns in his North Riverside home in one of the largest weapons seizures in recent years, authorities said. The man, who is a former police officer, was being held Monday in Broadview, where he had been detained after authorities raided his 6th Avenue house, said Special Agent Tom Ahern, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Tom Stanton, a Cook County state's attorney spokesman, said Monday that the federal government would press charges. Maywood police, who received information that led to the raid, continued to investigate whether there was a link between the man and recent shootings in that suburb, including one last week in which seven people were injured, said Brian Black, a police spokesman. Shell casings from the shooting Thursday indicate a semi-automatic weapon was used, Black said. On the surface there doesn't appear to be a connection to that incident, Ahern said. Authorities intend to enter shell casings from that shooting into a national database to try to determine if the same weapon was used in another crime, he said. In addition, authorities intend to use the ATF's national tracing center to learn the history of all 420 guns discovered at the North Riverside home. The cache included handguns, shotguns and rifles and "thousands of rounds of ammunition," Ahern said. "It's a very significant seizure," he said. "What makes it even more ominous is the fact that it was in a residential area." Ahern said the man had been arrested on a gun-related charge in recent years, but was not convicted. Authorities believe the man was selling firearms to people who are not legally allowed to possess them, such as convicted felons, Ahern said. He also allegedly sold firearms without keeping proper documentation and without the required three-day criminal background check, Ahern added. In addition, the man is not a licensed federal firearms dealer, a requirement for someone to be in the business, he said. Saturday's raid stemmed from information Maywood police received that led them "to believe that this individual was supplying the Maywood area with some weapons," Black said. The Police Department contacted ATF and the agencies worked with state police and Chicago police, Ahern said. Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 11:13:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tequilabob: The cache included handguns, shotguns and rifles and "thousands of rounds of ammunition," Ahern said. "It's a very significant seizure," he said. "What makes it even more ominous is the fact that it was in a residential area."
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I hope everyone here lives in an industrial or commercial district. TS
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 11:52:31 AM EDT
Still think most cops will refuse to take your guns? No, Not for an instant.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:00:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 12:02:21 PM EDT by nwatson99]
Originally Posted By tequilabob: damn cops, [red]the guy arrested is an ex cop,[/red] and i raise my bet to 200 cyber bucks this guy is dirty as a chicago politician Federal charges are expected to be filed against a man who was detained Saturday after law enforcement officials found hundreds of guns in his North Riverside home in one of the largest weapons seizures in recent years, authorities said.
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[shock] He deserves the death penalty if he was selling Weapons to those gang bangers. That guy swore an oath to uphold the Law and Protect The Public and Community. What is the word coming to? The mighty green $$$$$ has turned another honest or used to be honest person into a life of crime.[V]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:14:19 PM EDT
How many days are we still supposed to wait for a purchase under the Brady Bill? Stupid-ass press.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:30:13 PM EDT
"Newspapers are required under the Brawny Bill to have a 3 day waiting period before reporting news in order to under-go a background check for factual accuracy". Not true, but what the hell? If I owned 400 guns or 4 guns, I would be allowed under Illinois law to sell each and every one of them to private citizens. All I am required to do is note the Firearms Owner ID numbers of all the buyers. That's it! No ID, no sale! ID, then sale, no 3-day wainting period, or background check required. This is the State Law, not municipal law, so there are further restrictions in some urban areas.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:42:55 PM EDT
Torf: IL [b]DOES[/b] Require you to follow the 1 or 3 day wait for sales, even private sales. They also require you to keep the FOID info for 10 years. Kind of sucks, but that brought out in a "sting" at the Lake Co. Gunshow--they went and watched private transactions in the parking lot and busted the guys doing them. AFARR "Welcome to the Hell of Gunowners in Illinois...Illinois has lots of Hells."
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:59:26 PM EDT
I had no idea that this pertained to private sales as well. How are we even supposed to know about this, and how are we supposed to initiate a 'background check'? Forget it. I sold all my guns 11 years ago. [;)]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:00:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AFARR: Torf: IL [b]DOES[/b] Require you to follow the 1 or 3 day wait for sales, even private sales. They also require you to keep the FOID info for 10 years. Kind of sucks, but that brought out in a "sting" at the Lake Co. Gunshow--they went and watched private transactions in the parking lot and busted the guys doing them. AFARR "Welcome to the Hell of Gunowners in Illinois...Illinois has lots of Hells."
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Jeez, you guys have it even worse than we do in MA. Sorry to hear it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:44:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 3:47:33 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
Originally Posted By nwatson99: Do you actually think they would just bust into his house with ATF, Explosive Techs., City Kitties, and all the bells and whistles just for having a large amount of guns?
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Uh....yes I do!! Ask the people in a little town in Texas called Waco. Or randy weaver. For your information they not only busted in but SLAUGHTERED and BURNED those people.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:28:24 PM EDT
If he knowingly sold guns to gangbangers and criminals, then good bust. If not, then it will be interesting to see how this goes. In that case, I hope he gets everything back plus a nice settlement with the state for his trouble. As for the title question of whether cops will refuse to take your guns, I would submit that they will refuse only when such assignments become suicide missions.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:58:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 4:59:09 PM EDT by fizassist]
Originally Posted By nwatson99: I have never seen a Firearm or Firearms that were confiscated and not returned if they were legal. Meaning not stolen, used in crimes.
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Well, you might ask the local sheriff's dept here. When I was 21, they confiscated a revolver they found in my trunk during a traffic stop. (I was "weaving", they said.) They initially said the gun was stolen, but I was later able to demonstrate that it was not with the original bill of sale. No number of appeals would get them to return my property. They claimed it was "destroyed" before the "mistake" was noticed. Now ask me if I'm afraid of cops. Why the fvck wouldn't I be afraid of people who steal impunity? I can tell you that [b]no one[/b] is every going to confiscate a weapon of mine again.
Do you actually think they would just bust into his house with ATF, Explosive Techs., City Kitties, and all the bells and whistles just for having a large amount of guns? That cat was up to something and he just got busted.
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Look up John Lawmaster. That "cat" wasn't "up to" anything but owning [b]legal[/b] guns, and the ATF pulled out all the stops when they raided him. Not a religious fanatic, not a gun runner, just a guy.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:50:02 PM EDT
So it's really news to you that BATF, Chicago PD, and the Illinois State Police are three of the most anti-gun law enforcement agencies on the planet? What friggin' rock have you been living under? And how does their conduct indicate what the rest of us LEO's may or may not do?
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