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Posted: 4/30/2003 7:56:53 PM EDT
[url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=183585&w=myTopicPop]thread[/url] quoted and edited.
Muzzleloaders have, prior to Tony Knight, been short range iron sighted rifles whose killing power was their ability to move a large chunk of lead at a mediocre velocity. Then you have the people who try to manipulate the rules with their inlines. Then they have to have a freakin scope on it. Then someone starts monkeying with ways to drive a pistol bullet in a sabot at 2000+ feet/second. In Oklahoma, the black powder season is officially called "Primitive Firearms Season." WTF IS PRIMITIVE ABOUT A freakin SCOPED INLINE THAT SHOOTS 2000+ FEET/SECOND?!!!!! Hell's bells, a paper cartridge Civil War Sharps is more primitive than that and isn't even legal to use in the Oklahoma PRIMITIVE season. If you want an extra week in the woods to hunt deer, PETITION THE FRIGGIN' WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT TO EXTEND THE GUN SEASON. Next thing you know, some idiot is going to try and figure a way to legally use a spear gun during archery season, because "The archery snobs shouldn't have it all to themselves." If inlines and all kinds of other extraneous BS is allowed during the PRIMITIVE season, then why bother? Discontinue it and add another week to the gun season.
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so what do ya think?
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 7:59:27 PM EDT
I dont think so. I do not consider them primative weapons as they are now. Too much like a real rifle. I think percussion should be the limit with optics ok as long as its no magnification.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 8:01:35 PM EDT
poll added.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 8:08:18 PM EDT
In my experience, inlines don't offer that much advantage over traditional. If hunters fight hunters, only the anti's win. SRM
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 8:38:01 PM EDT
I live in Oklahoma and hunt with a scoped in-line. Hell if were going to have this discussion then lets just all go back to hunting with spears and rocks. That's truly primitive. I'm up for anything that makes my life and my hunting experience easier. Why in the hell do you have to be miserable and traditional to hunt primitive? I'm sure no one goes out in buck skin and moccasins to hunt dear do they? If were going to outlaw in-lines lets outlaw camo, pyrodex, binos, cover scents, buck grunts, raincoats, electrical power, the internet, and the truck you use to get to the field. If your so stuck on tradition than walk to the field in your moccasins and buck skins sit on the ground and not in your stand and after you shoot the deer take it back to your tepee and skin it with your hand made bowie knife then hang it out side up in a tree. As it rots go over to it and cut you a maggot infested hunk off once in awhile. Then when you get sick your really in trouble because you have no meds or hospital. Unless your willing to give up all the nice NEW things in life. don't give me any shit about hunting with my nice new scoped inline. Times change.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 8:42:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 8:42:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 8:44:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: I can understand the old timey primitive guys getting pissed at regular guys intruding on "their season" but we have less hunters in this area every year.Even with inlines you are VERY unlikely to run into anyone else in the woods during inline season around here. Overall I think it gets more guys hunting and is better for the sport even if some think it's "cheating"
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That's great, but why not just get rid of muzzle season all together if you're going to allow "cheating"? Rifle season is sure to draw more hunters if you give them that extra week.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:01:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ark-and-spark: I live in Oklahoma and hunt with a scoped in-line. Hell if were going to have this discussion then lets just all go back to hunting with spears and rocks. That's truly primitive. I'm up for anything that makes my life and my hunting experience easier. Why in the hell do you have to be miserable and traditional to hunt primitive? I'm sure no one goes out in buck skin and moccasins to hunt dear do they? If were going to outlaw in-lines lets outlaw camo, pyrodex, binos, cover scents, buck grunts, raincoats, electrical power, the internet, and the truck you use to get to the field. If your so stuck on tradition than walk to the field in your moccasins and buck skins sit on the ground and not in your stand and after you shoot the deer take it back to your tepee and skin it with your hand made bowie knife then hang it out side up in a tree. As it rots go over to it and cut you a maggot infested hunk off once in awhile. Then when you get sick your really in trouble because you have no meds or hospital. Unless your willing to give up all the nice NEW things in life. don't give me any shit about hunting with my nice new scoped inline. Times change.
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Well said. If my single shot TC Encore with 150 grains of pelleted powder and a 3x9 scope is such an awesome killing machine, why don't I use it during the regular firearms season? I get one shot and have to re-load just like an old Kentucky rifle. I don't shoot round patched balls either, do you? Do you use real black powder or Pyrodex, or Goex? Do you use a flint lock? If you want to dig up some ore and forge your own barrel and grow the tree to make your stock and melt the lead to make your bullets and wear buckskin clothes and a silly hat, go right ahead. I will respect your choices and I won't bash a fellow sportsman's method of hunting, or the choice of his weapon. If you traditional guys want to try something really "primitive" take up bow hunting, but don't forget to use a wooden bow and flint tipped arrows you knapped yourself. I will shoot my compound bow with carbon arrows and surgical stainless blades and ask that you respect my choice. In Oklahoma we also have a limited draw in only bowhunt at the McCalester ammunition plant that will NOT allow any compound bows. I don't agree with their logic that compound bows are bad, but a select few have kept them off of the base for years. It is one of the only places in the country that is traditional archery only.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:02:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:07:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:08:46 PM EDT
Who cares...here in Georgia we have a 17 week deer season, with a 12 deer limit, so whats it matter if you take one with a bow, sidelock or inline muzzleloader, or a rifle? I hunt with whatever is legal at the time, just long as I get to hunt.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:10:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2003 9:13:52 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:11:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:17:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:22:52 PM EDT
I'm kinda torn on this one. My gut reaction is that a synthetic stocked, stainless steel inline using shotgun primers and a sabot round and mounting a scope defeats the purpose of primitive firearms season. It's like hunting during bow season with a crossbow. Or what if I built some kinda of 3 shot pneumatic semi automatic bow? Could I "bow" hunt with it? On the other hand, those advantages probably lead to fewer wounded deer. My father hunts with a setup like the one I've described for that reason. But to me, primitive firearms season is about using the tools that were available 150 years ago to hunt in a primitive way. It keeps those skills and part of our heritage alive. Inlines cheapen that.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:22:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:29:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:36:30 PM EDT
I use my Traditions in-line during the CT muzzleloader season. Nice gun for the price. The warehouse is a few towns over. I don't think that they have a requirement for muzzleloaders except caliber. I love using my gun. My ARs are cool, but sometimes I just take my inline out for a little fun.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:45:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Originally Posted By Big_B:
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So, you would have no problem allowing rifle hunters during that season if they could only load one round at a time, right? How about this spin: I don't care if you "muzzle hunters" want to go around with just shooting one round at a time. I, however, appreciate not having to go through with that unmodern technique and stick with my bolt action or mag fed weapon. I won't knock a fellow hunter for his choices in hunting, its just that I prefer the advantage of bolt action rifles. Now, why not just extend rifle season another week?
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I assume you are referring to my list of similarities between all of the muzzle loading rifles. It is hardly the same as using a modern action rifle and smokeless powder.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:52:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:54:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 9:55:58 PM EDT
WTH is an inline, and what makes it different from any other single-shot BP weapon (coming from a guy who owns no non-modern weapons)???
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 10:01:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A: WTH is an inline, and what makes it different from any other single-shot BP weapon (coming from a guy who owns no non-modern weapons)???
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a inline is essently a bolt action muzzleloader most use shotgun primers instead of a cap. the thing is they pretty much have the same ballistics.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 10:02:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Originally Posted By Big_B: It is hardly the same as using a modern action rifle and smokeless powder.
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If you say so.
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So my .30-.378 Weatherby shoots a 180 grain bullet at 3400 fps and that is the same as my TC Encore shooting a 250 grain bullet at 2100 fps? Now I see what you are talking about, what a dumbass I was to think that they were different.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 10:02:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 10:04:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A: WTH is an inline, and what makes it different from any other single-shot BP weapon (coming from a guy who owns no non-modern weapons)???
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An inline has the ignition source directly behind the powder charge as opposed to the side as on a flintlock, or percussion rifle. This system of ignition is not new, but it has been revived and is now used on probably 9 out of 10 muzzleloaders produced.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 11:02:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 11:07:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 3:03:26 AM EDT
Muzzleloader season, bow season, when do we get rock & pointy stick season?
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 3:38:22 AM EDT
Buncha whiners. Here in the beautiful state of NC, it is called Muzzleloader season. [url]http://www.wildlife.state.nc.us/pg02_Regs/pg2a1.pdf[/url] An interesting twist is that during the week of ML season, you cannot hunt with a bow. I've hunted with traditional and inlines, I prefer the inlines. I prefer to minimize risk in wounding and not retrieving an animal. I hunt with bow, muzzies, rifles, pistols. I'd hunt them with spears if there were a season. My take is that if you think inlines are "cheating", you are just an elitist.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 3:47:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 4:15:07 AM EDT
If you're going to allow that, why not just do away with muzzle season and extend rifle season another week?
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That's what I've always said. Every so ofetn the Wildlife Commission here writes another regulation to allow something else to be used as a legal means of taking. Just skip to the chase and extend the gun season.
In Oklahoma we also have a limited draw in only bowhunt at the McCalester ammunition plant that will NOT allow any compound bows. I don't agree with their logic that compound bows are bad, but a select few have kept them off of the base for years. It is one of the only places in the country that is traditional archery only.
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And it warms my heart to hear a select fewer bitch every year. Tell me, how is anyone being kept from participating there? Did the MC AAP specifically tell YOU or anyone else that you were forbidden to hunt there? Or was it more like you refused to comply with the rules of their hunt? That's what I thought.
This system of ignition is not new, but it has been revived
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Please tell me where I can see one of these "old" inlines in a museum. Stop copying Knight's ads.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 4:45:54 AM EDT
Well, here's my take in WI... Up here, there's one area of the state where deer are basically being treated as varmints, due to CWD (i.e. kill-them-all-NOW!). The state's problem is not too few deer, but too few hunters... They have legalized hunting from vehicles in this area, and have stopped just short of paying a bounty due to budget issues. Also, we have rifle, shotgun, bow, and muzzleloader seasons. ML season allows muzzleloaders of all kinds and zero-power scopes, and we don't have a per-se 'primative' season. WI also allows hunting deer (in all areas) with anything larger than .177 centerfire or .22 rimfire (except machineguns and short-barreled (under 5.5in) pistols), and mag capacity is unlimited. So up here, what matters is that deer get shot, not with what (so long as it kills them). There are plenty of deer to go around (too many), and the guys who shoot either kind of ML aren't affecting each other...
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 6:13:33 AM EDT
[b]"If you traditional guys want to try something really "primitive" take up bow hunting, but don't forget to use a wooden bow and flint tipped arrows you knapped yourself."[/b] As a matter of fact I do!!!! Just made myself a nice Hickory killing stick and am working on tipping my River Cane arrows with Cahokia points at the moment! [b]Sticks and stones will break bones![b/] Inlines are to Flint and precussion locks as Compounds are to Longbows! There is nothing traditional about either one!
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 6:36:32 AM EDT
I don't know ifthis was mentioned or not, but there is an example of an inline muzzel stuffer sitting in the tower of london(don't know if it is still there). the in-line is not a new idea. It was perhaps to expencive to make in mass quantities, to become an everyday item at the time it was designed originaly i don't know, but the in-line idea is older than this country so why not include them in a "primitive" hunting season.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 7:33:23 AM EDT
In Indiana during Deer Season, it is not legal to use my 30:30, only shotguns. Supposedly this is a safety issue due to the longer range of the centerfire. Yet, for varment season anything goes. Wierd logic! I feel that the inlines compare favorably with, if not superior to, the 30:30 in accuracy and range and therefore should not be used for the special Primitive/Muzzle loader Season. Indeed it is superior to the 12ga that is used during the regular season. The only handicap is the second shot capability. A good trade-off. I'd favor their use only during the regular deer season and leave the muzzle loading season to the percussion boys.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 1:34:48 PM EDT
Well, If I had my way, a "muzzleloader season" would include inlines. But a "primitive weapons season" wouldn't allow inlines. Maybe I'm a little involved with the semantics, but this makes a kind of sense to me. Don in Ohio
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 6:07:40 PM EDT
I believe that its called [u]primitive firearms[/u] season for a reason. For those that say you should use sticks and rocks, see above underlined. if its muzzleloading season then inlines should be fine. but a "primitive firearms" season is called that for a reason. just my .02
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 7:22:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 7:45:00 PM EDT
I rarely reply to these "no win threads" but I have to this time. I throw in with the traditionalists - for sure and for certain! I think inlines (especially scoped ones) are a travesty to the heart-and-feel of the primitive hunt. I use only a flintlock or cap lock to stay within the unspoken bounds of primitive. IMO people using modern scoped inlines cross the boundries of the intention of the primitive hunt. I belive the cause of this is more a "rules" thing than the people using them. I think the "rules" should expicitly ban inlines!! I'll stand proudly in the flame line with all the traditionalists!!!
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 4:32:42 AM EDT
Aimless! I would gladly show you pictures of my bow! How do you post pictures?
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 4:39:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2003 4:40:23 AM EDT by m193]
Originally Posted By John Parker: [b]"If you traditional guys want to try something really "primitive" take up bow hunting, but don't forget to use a wooden bow and flint tipped arrows you knapped yourself."[/b] As a matter of fact I do!!!! Just made myself a nice Hickory killing stick and am working on tipping my River Cane arrows with Cahokia points at the moment! [b]Sticks and stones will break bones![b/] Inlines are to Flint and precussion locks as Compounds are to Longbows! There is nothing traditional about either one!
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That's great. I would like to do that sometime. You forgot about the primitive cross-bow. They are allowed during archery hunts now.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 6:35:03 AM EDT
All you need to start are some bow wood trees in the backyard and a few woodworking tools! Go to www.primitivearcher.com there is a great message board with great people who will answer all your questions! Kind of like here!
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 11:21:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 1:04:19 AM EDT
We need to encourage more hunters--not push guys/gals out.
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How is anyone "pushed out?" I don't recall anyone being told that they were excluded from a season by being required to use a sidelock muzzleloader. If they didn't participate, then that was a personal choice.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 3:47:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 4:40:13 AM EDT
But I don’t think enforcing your opinions on others accomplishes anything other than possibly excluding other hunters, even if by their own choice.
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If someone makes the choice NOT to participate, how are they being excluded? Their choice.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 4:43:30 AM EDT
This may have already been posted. If so, sorry. The inline muzzleloader is not a new design. It was first designed, built and used in the 1800's.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 4:50:37 AM EDT
The inline muzzleloader is not a new design. It was first designed, built and used in the 1800's.
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Where are all of these historical inlines? Someone pointed to an individual example in the Tower of London. Surely if this is such an established design, there must be great numbers of them out there. The DESIGN of an inline was not created as WE know it until about thirty years ago. The CONCEPT of inlines has been around for quite some time. Much as Da Vinci's CONCEPT of flight was around long before aircraft.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:34:44 AM EDT
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