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Posted: 4/22/2003 1:10:41 PM EDT
Michigan man ticketed for American Flag flapping in the wind. Ray Saelens poses in front of his 50-foot flagpole with the citation he received after a neighbor complained about the flag's loud flapping. Associated Press CHESTERFIELD TOWNSHIP, Mich. - It's a flap over a flapping flag. A man who installed a 50-foot flag pole after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks was ticketed after a neighbor said the flag's flapping made too much noise. Ray Saelens says the sight and sound of an American flag whipping in the wind has special meaning. "To me, the noise of the flag is the voices of everyone who's died for this country," the 51-year-old mason told The Macomb Daily of Mount Clemens for a story Thursday. But next-door neighbor Mark Grucz complained, saying the flapping of the flag bothered him, and police issued Saelens a warning. In response, Saelens switched to a polyester flag designed to be quieter. "Never in a million years did I think I would bother someone by flying a flag," he said. On Monday, a police officer cited him for violating the local noise ordinance. "He could hardly look me in the eye," Saelens said. Township police spokesman Jim Gates said the dispute was unprecedented, and the department had no choice but to issue a ticket when someone complains about noise. It is up to the court to decide between the neighbors, he said. Meanwhile, Saelens says he will fight to keep the flag flying. "You're going to have to pry it out of my hands," he said. David N. Posavetz/The Macomb Daily
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 1:21:11 PM EDT
Township police spokesman Jim Gates said the dispute was unprecedented, and the department had no choice but to issue a ticket when someone complains about noise.
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Now that's a lame-assed excuse. How about when someone complains about an ass-hole neighbor and a policeman with no balls...
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 1:30:49 PM EDT
Welcome to Amerikkka..
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 1:52:21 PM EDT
Is it unpatriotic or UnAmerican to want a quiet neighborhood?
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 1:54:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2003 1:56:10 PM EDT by Trog777]
But you can force me to listen to stupidass rap music at every friggin stoplight! [Bueford T. Justice voice] What the hell is the world coming too? .[/Bueford T. Justice voice]
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 2:00:12 PM EDT
I can't imagine a flag violating a noise ordinance. Noise ordinances have to be defined far more objectively than "some guy thinks it is too loud". Decible readings taken a certain distance from the flag should clear the owner. He should fight the fine. I doubt the officer was equipped to measure the sound objectively. Next he should call the cops of his neighbor for any activity that rises above 85dB.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 2:03:18 PM EDT
Fisrt people cant burn crosses,(not that I would even think of it) Now we cant fly the flag. Look out the gestopo is coming, run fast run far. If anyone needs me I will be in my room lading mags.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 2:05:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reactionary: Is it unpatriotic or UnAmerican to want a quiet neighborhood?
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No, but is IS unAmerican to force others to bow to your will because your hearing aid is turned up too high. It is also patriotic to move to a quieter location. Why someone would live in a neighborhood, and expect it to be quiet is beyond me. I live in the country and some dickless A-hole tried to tell be that I couldn't shoot guns, because he expected it to be quiet. Now he calls the cops on me just about every time he hears it, but I hang out with the LEO's and talk guns and stuff, if they even show up.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 2:28:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf:
Originally Posted By Reactionary: Is it unpatriotic or UnAmerican to want a quiet neighborhood?
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No, but is IS unAmerican to force others to bow to your will because your hearing aid is turned up too high. It is also patriotic to move to a quieter location. Why someone would live in a neighborhood, and expect it to be quiet is beyond me. I live in the country and some dickless A-hole tried to tell be that I couldn't shoot guns, because he expected it to be quiet. Now he calls the cops on me just about every time he hears it, but I hang out with the LEO's and talk guns and stuff, if they even show up.
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Your point is valid However the complaintant is a dickweed, not necessarily unpatriotic. That was my point.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 2:40:53 PM EDT
Does anyone know if this is the same dude that's been fighting to keep the big flag and pole setup in his front lawn?? Ditto on the fighting of the fine. In my state you can be as loud as you want until 10pm roles around, then you can be fined.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 3:11:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 3:12:47 PM EDT
Come on guys, a freakin 50 foot pole? On some other message board somebody is posting this: "Well, my bonehead neighbor just installed a 5 story high flagpole with a big ass flag on it in his front yard. It's loud as hell! What a wierdo man"
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 3:17:59 PM EDT
I say burn down his neighbors house piss on the ashes and apalogize for the sound of the splatter.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:22:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFNG: I say burn down his neighbors house piss on the ashes and apalogize for the sound of the splatter.
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Fuck the apology!!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:49:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Motor_City_Tactical:
Township police spokesman Jim Gates said the dispute was unprecedented, and the department had no choice but to issue a ticket when someone complains about noise.
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Now that's a lame-assed excuse.
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Actually it's not. In my state if someone signs an order of arrest it's a crime for me to refuse that arrest, I suspect Michigan has simular law.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:40:57 AM EDT
Fifty foot poll is high, he's probably flying a pretty big flag. One possible solution would be for him to fly a smaller flag or move to the country where such complaints are unheard of. After that it's beat the neighbors ass, kill his dog and screw his oldlady [:D]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:31:50 AM EDT
We've argued this one before. I'm with the neighbors here. If one of mine pulled this crap, I'd be all over him. Put up with flapping and grommets banging all day and night, you've got to be kidding. Instead of picturing the US flag, picture a big University of Michigan flag, and ask yourself if your opinion changes...
"To me, the noise of the flag is the voices of everyone who's died for this country," the 51-year-old mason told The Macomb Daily of Mount Clemens for a story Thursday.
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This is a cop out, it's a way to divert from the issue at hand, and attack the motives of the one complaining. You guys are falling for it. Maybe I should take my Garand out into my front yard at 6:00am, fire dozens of rounds into the ground, and use the same excuse when the police show up...(how unpatriotic of them)
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:40:50 AM EDT
There`s nothing quite like living next to dick head neighbors! Like the kind that cut there lawn 4 times a week!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:46:44 AM EDT
Anything can be over done.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:29:34 AM EDT
[b]In my state if someone signs an order of arrest it's a crime for me to refuse that arrest, I suspect Michigan has simular law.[/b] dunno about michigan, but germany used to have a similar law. i vas yust followink der orderz! zey voult half mine job if i did not obey ze orderz!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:00:26 AM EDT
my closest "neighbors" are 3/4 to 1 mile away and one of them, the last 3 of 3 times i've been shooting on my property has taken it upon himself to call the cops on me. about 40 rounds were shot the first night, pretty late, but we're out in the country and were shooting a 1911 and an AR, not exactly cannons at a one mile distance, so the cops called, we stopped. sheriff was made aware that it was bullshit. 2nd time was at an ar15.com shoot i held on my property, full autos going from 10:30 to 3:00, then from 3:00 to 7:00 steady semi-auto shooting going on. well at 7:30 the cops roll up and tell us we're too loud again. i explain to the cops that i could give a flying shit because the sheriff had already been told about this event 3 days prior and he told us to stop shooting about about 10:00 or 11:00. we shot more, and louder after that. sheriff was called and bitched at further. 3rd time i was teaching a friend to bumpfire, fired about 100 rounds, then went inside. here comes the phone call from the cops. sheriff was called, at home, and told that if we were breaking the law to ticket us, if not then QUIT FN CALLING!!!!!!!!!!!! after that we went and shot another 120 rounds for good measure, at a more annoying pace. end result: sheriffs office dispatcher bulletin board now has a note to not call us for reports of gunfire ever again i hate neighbors, and 3/4 mile is just not far enough away apparently. p.s. these cocks also told the cops we were shooting at a parked tractor near the property (which belongs to the DPS seargeant, so obviously he knows they're full of shit now)
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:40:10 AM EDT
3/4 of a mile is far enough provided you are shooting in a proper direction with a backstop. A neighbor w/ class would come over and check on these before calling the sheriff's office. And then, should only call if you are shooting in his general direction without a safe backstop.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:07:21 AM EDT
There was a case here in VA a while back about something like this... a guy put up a flagpole and his neighbors successfully had it removed through court proceedings. It's just not the same country it used to be. Alex
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:48:14 AM EDT
two loads of dirt, hauled in especially for the shoot
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:20:18 AM EDT
depends how loud it was flapping, but I doubt it'd bother me and if I was in the country and heard my neighbors shooting I'd go over there armed, and ask if I could join them
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:49:50 AM EDT
Damn, how much wind blows at that place? Maybe some windmill farms are in order.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:09:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 10:10:59 AM EDT by Sniper_408]
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: We've argued this one before. I'm with the neighbors here. If one of mine pulled this crap, I'd be all over him. Put up with flapping and grommets banging all day and night, you've got to be kidding. Instead of picturing the US flag, picture a big University of Michigan flag, and ask yourself if your opinion changes...
"To me, the noise of the flag is the voices of everyone who's died for this country," the 51-year-old mason told The Macomb Daily of Mount Clemens for a story Thursday.
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This is a cop out, it's a way to divert from the issue at hand, and attack the motives of the one complaining. You guys are falling for it. Maybe I should take my Garand out into my front yard at 6:00am, fire dozens of rounds into the ground, and use the same excuse when the police show up...(how unpatriotic of them)
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I agree, most are falling for the voices in the wind BS. A flag of that size is VERY loud when the grommets are banging away and it's flaping, especialy if it's a windy area such as Michigan,(which by the by, Michigan IS)which means that the wind is almost constant.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:30:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 9:36:12 AM EDT by ckapsl]
In some circumstances, his flying such a huge flag [b]could[/b] cause annoyance to other people's enjoyment of [b]their property[/b]. If someone spraypainted my house with the colors of the American flag, and claimed patriotism as an excuse, I would call bullshit and kick his ass. Patriotism is not necessarily sufficient reason to infringe on the rights of other people. Generating a loud volume of noise does infringe on the rights of the neighboring property owners. I don't think that most of us would put up with our neighbors playing the Star Spangled Banner through a loudspeaker at 3 a.m. Why is the flag different? An objective way of resolving the dispute might be for the flag noise - in high wind - to be measured with a decibel meter to see if it meets the objective standards of noise laid down for [b]that neighborhood[/b]. Maybe a reasonable compromise is that he stops flying the flag at 2200 hrs? That way, the neighbors can get some sleep and he shouldn't be flying the flag at night anyway.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 10:11:31 AM EDT
you can damn well bet the local cops were having a pissing match about who was gonna get stuck making the run. there's not a cop in US that would wanna make that run. bottom line is that we HAVE to follow up on all calls. i'm sure the cop felt like shit.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 10:44:37 AM EDT
I will not opine one way or the other about this issue; I don't know just how loud this man's flag is. I will, however, note that if this is the same gentleman that I have read about previously, I believe that he is flying a garrison flag. These flags measure 20 feet by 38 feet and when there is a good breeze going, they are VERY loud. In fact, the Marine Corps will only fly a garrison flag on a pole that is 65-feet or taller.
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