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Posted: 12/14/2020 12:40:08 PM EDT
[#1]
guns, sewing pin heads are too big for rivets at this scale?
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:18:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Daniel76: Let clock girl know she's doing a great job, but she's going to have to duplicate those same second/minute/hour hands for REAL accuracy.  https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/68216/nE7clcW_jpg-1730572.JPG We've talked about it.  Not sure how we will do it, but yes, it needs done.
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Posted: 12/14/2020 1:38:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: guns, sewing pin heads are too big for rivets at this scale? They could probably use brads. Hammer those in with a jewelers hammer. (According to a quick google, they replaced over 15000 rivets rebuilding the SS “John W. Brown”. Think of the fun!) 
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Posted: 12/14/2020 3:06:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mak_380: They could probably use brads. Hammer those in with a jewelers hammer. (According to a quick google, they replaced over 15000 rivets rebuilding the SS “John W. Brown”. Think of the fun!) Now we are going to have a student bring in his dad's battery powered brad nailer and have those 15,000 rivets installed in no time. |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 4:30:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raffi383: Now we are going to have a student bring in his dad's battery powered brad nailer and have those 15,000 rivets installed in no time. No, no, it has to be AUTHENTIC riveting. Done manually. With authentic rivet strike patterns. This Is The Way™! So It Shall Be Written! So It Shall Be Done! (googling jewelers hammers now.) |
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Posted: 12/14/2020 9:18:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mak_380: No, no, it has to be AUTHENTIC riveting. Done manually. With authentic rivet strike patterns. This Is The Way™! So It Shall Be Written! So It Shall Be Done! (googling jewelers hammers now.) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mak_380: Originally Posted By raffi383: Now we are going to have a student bring in his dad's battery powered brad nailer and have those 15,000 rivets installed in no time. No, no, it has to be AUTHENTIC riveting. Done manually. With authentic rivet strike patterns. This Is The Way™! So It Shall Be Written! So It Shall Be Done! (googling jewelers hammers now.) You people are sick!!!!!  On the 14ft boat, we might get into rivets again. I'm not risking getting disappeared over them on the 7ft er
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Posted: 12/15/2020 12:21:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Update 12/15
Huge Thank You to @gwitness for the John Brown model!!!  This came in the mail yesterday and will be an immense help with scale and position of deck details.  A very happy young man, who wants to build this for us.  A first bracket for hanging our 7 foot model.  Installed.  |
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Posted: 12/16/2020 8:18:51 AM EDT
[#8]
You’re quite welcome, as I said, it’s a bit of pay back for teacher that sparked my interest in history many years ago.
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Posted: 12/17/2020 10:22:29 AM EDT
[#9]
Update 12/17
Students have been working to smooth out the lines in the hull.....still.  We think we are there, then feel or look at it from another perspective, and we rework.  We did start detailing the bow a bit yesterday.    We are getting there. We discussed how the larger model should go much quicker, given the knowledge and way we are experiencing now. That is a plus.  |
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Posted: 12/17/2020 10:33:00 AM EDT
[#10]
After the model of the one that is going to be torpedoed is built, will there be an actual simulation of the torpedoing that will happen in the field behind the school? You can then take the pieces and use those in the display.
Wear safety glasses as rivets will be flying everywhere. A live webcast of the "science" project will be expected. Thanks Guns. |
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Posted: 12/17/2020 10:06:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: brass]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Update 12/17 Students have been working to smooth out the lines in the hull.....still. We think we are there, then feel or look at it from another perspective, and we rework. https://i.imgur.com/W0VzX57.jpg We did start detailing the bow a bit yesterday. https://i.imgur.com/n0BWJYp.jpg https://i.imgur.com/8vCyC7T.jpg https://i.imgur.com/IzukwxL.jpg We are getting there. We discussed how the larger model should go much quicker, given the knowledge and way we are experiencing now. That is a plus. https://i.imgur.com/7zsGHaa.jpg Too Small of sanding block. But looking good! You want a LONG and Wide DuraBlock to bend the surface in a uniform way across a curve. They're like $25, but let you only need to sand once or twice once even pressure is used at maximum sandpaper coverage. Use Stick on 120 grit then 320 for final lines to not remove more than sanding marks, 120 and cheese graters for the extra filler that always ends up sticking up. Only go to the 330 to remove sanding marks of the 120, not for shaping. Fast is actually better, see video, long swipes. Go the long way with even pressure, don't go up and down unless it's a wide double curve like a windshield. https://smile.amazon.com/Dura-Block-AF4410-Black-Marine-Sanding/dp/B007VTSX84 Or the Whole Set of others but not specially curved like the top one to prevent waviness. Even pressure on the block and moving the correct direction with lots of overlap prevents wavy bumps.  Block Sanding Tips & Tricks with Kevin Tetz - How To Make Panels Look Great - Eastwood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwb72qRT8hQ These things make anybody good at hand sanding the way they re-focus pressure evenly across the "stick on" sandpaper base (Roll of sandpaper $20 for 5 years worth). --ETA: 22:27 The video that includes trim details, first half of the one above can be skipped.  Block Sanding Tips & Tricks with Kevin Tetz - How To Make Panels Look Great - Part 2 - Eastwood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njhiSrwsu-k |
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Posted: 12/17/2020 10:41:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Daniel76: Let clock girl know she's doing a great job, but she's going to have to duplicate those same second/minute/hour hands for REAL accuracy. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/68216/nE7clcW_jpg-1730572.JPG I collect ships' clocks. Would love to get my hands on a Kriegsmarine clock. Most people call them U-Boat clocks, but the vast majority of those still in existence were on surface ships. I found one for sale on eBay. A guy in Norway had it. His ad said "forbidden symbols removed". The eagle/swastika had been scraped off. It still sold for about $1200.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 12/18/2020 10:43:44 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By conductor: I collect ships' clocks. Would love to get my hands on a Kriegsmarine clock. Most people call them U-Boat clocks, but the vast majority of those still in existence were on surface ships. I found one for sale on eBay. A guy in Norway had it. His ad said "forbidden symbols removed". The eagle/swastika had been scraped off. It still sold for about $1200. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/31420/DSCN2427_JPG-1736234.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/31420/DSCN2430_JPG-1736237.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/31420/DSCN2426_JPG-1736239.JPG Those are awesome!
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Posted: 12/18/2020 10:45:35 AM EDT
[#14]
Update 12/18
Students are working on figuring out where each contour bulkhead goes on our 14 ft beam.   |
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Posted: 12/23/2020 10:21:30 AM EDT
[#15]
Update 12/23
Last update of the year 2020. Students broke out in song almost everyday this last week. They were all a bit hyped for their coming Christmas break.   We are still fixing little imperfections in the hull lines.  Yesterday, we finally got most of our bulkhead frames onto the 14' beam.  
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Posted: 12/23/2020 11:09:31 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: We've talked about it. Not sure how we will do it, but yes, it needs done.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Originally Posted By Daniel76: Let clock girl know she's doing a great job, but she's going to have to duplicate those same second/minute/hour hands for REAL accuracy. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/68216/nE7clcW_jpg-1730572.JPG We've talked about it. Not sure how we will do it, but yes, it needs done.It might be taking the "easy way out" but you might be able to find some hands that are close online.  https://www.clockworks.com/ |
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Posted: 12/23/2020 12:07:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jblomenberg16: It might be taking the "easy way out" but you might be able to find some hands that are close online. https://www.clockworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/quartz-clock-hands-2B-3.jpg https://www.clockworks.com/ Those can't be accurate. They have no rivets!
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Posted: 12/23/2020 5:57:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jblomenberg16: It might be taking the "easy way out" but you might be able to find some hands that are close online. https://www.clockworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/quartz-clock-hands-2B-3.jpg https://www.clockworks.com/ Thank you for the link! I'll let them take the easy button on those. Not sure we want to actually pull the hands off the clock. We messed the last one up pretty good when we did it.  Maybe we can be more careful this time. 
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Posted: 12/23/2020 6:08:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Thank you for the link! I'll let them take the easy button on those. Not sure we want to actually pull the hands off the clock. We messed the last one up pretty good when we did it. Maybe we can be more careful this time. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Originally Posted By jblomenberg16: It might be taking the "easy way out" but you might be able to find some hands that are close online. https://www.clockworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/quartz-clock-hands-2B-3.jpg https://www.clockworks.com/ Thank you for the link! I'll let them take the easy button on those. Not sure we want to actually pull the hands off the clock. We messed the last one up pretty good when we did it. Maybe we can be more careful this time. If you find the ones you need, you might just find a member (hint hint) that might be willing to donate (hint hint). |
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Posted: 12/23/2020 6:36:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: brass]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Thank you for the link! I'll let them take the easy button on those. Not sure we want to actually pull the hands off the clock. We messed the last one up pretty good when we did it. Maybe we can be more careful this time. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Originally Posted By jblomenberg16: It might be taking the "easy way out" but you might be able to find some hands that are close online. https://www.clockworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/quartz-clock-hands-2B-3.jpg https://www.clockworks.com/ Thank you for the link! I'll let them take the easy button on those. Not sure we want to actually pull the hands off the clock. We messed the last one up pretty good when we did it. Maybe we can be more careful this time. cut off the base and Super glue the bigger hands on the smaller ones? That 3 shaft drive is a total PITA, and it isn't a clock you can just replace the movement in for $5 (I'm assuming it has central control). If you really want to, mark where each one is, pry off, then put them back exactly to there's splines they were at, there's mini crowbar for doing that but I don't have advice for smaller mechanical bits like this. |
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Posted: 1/7/2021 10:49:56 AM EDT
[#21]
Update 1/7 We are back at it again! Classes resumed yesterday. My voice is out of shape.
The clock is slowly progressing right now, trying to get the lines all the same thickness. She works very fast, and I'm having her try to slow down a bit so she doesn't have to fix so many little differences. It is tedious work. She will get it. She's working to thin the lines right now.  Working on contours for the top deck.  We cut out the last few frames for our bulkheads yesterday and started securing them in place.  This is much harder than it looks, because the 2x4 is twisted a bit. Each frame has to be adjusted and aligned, then secured. Good news is, this is a "sinking ship" and may have tweaked the whole keel when torpedoed.  First few frames on the bow are aligned with each other. You can see how much twist there is that needs to be taken out. It's a time consuming job, and not much fun.  |
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Posted: 1/7/2021 12:37:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Good to see you and the crew back at it!
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Posted: 1/8/2021 6:23:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Update 1/8
There was good progress on getting the base deck on our 7 foot ship. The paper mache on the hull is all done for now, and they started working on the deck. They started by leveling the deck in the bow area.  Rest of it went pretty quick. They will work on sealing up all the seams, then begin the outer railing.   The 14 foot ship is slowing getting all of it's frames level and centered.   I'm worried we have the bow messed up somehow. I'll have them double check the scaling again next week. The numbers look right, but it looks too abrupt.   |
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Posted: 1/8/2021 6:29:30 PM EDT
[#24]
But will the hull rivets pop when it hits an iceberg?
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Posted: 1/8/2021 6:42:48 PM EDT
[#25]
There are two Liberty Ships that have been restored: Jeremiah O'Brien in San Francisco and I think the John Brown on the East Coast. The O'Brien was restored in time to participate in the 50th anniversary of D-Day in Normandy.
The smaller one could have Stephens Hopkins which was noted for sinking a German hilfskreuzer (auxilary cruiser or merchant raider). While the ships were merchant marine, they had a contingent of USN Reserve personnel (US Navy Armed Guards) that crewed the guns. In a mutually fatal combat, the Stephen Hopkins sank the KMS Hilfskreuzer Stier. BTW, I had an optical boresighter for the 20 mm Oerlikon that I donated to the O'Brien. |
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Posted: 1/8/2021 6:49:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mak_380]
[#26]
Nope, wrong ship. Liberty ships cracked in half because of
My poor memory.
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Posted: 1/8/2021 7:23:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mak_380: Nope, wrong ship. Liberty ships cracked in half because of poor welds, iirc.
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OK, USA
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Posted: 1/8/2021 7:50:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Not having followed this at all, I am very much day late/dollar short here. The bow does look off; in fact, it looks more like the profile of a Victory than a Liberty. Frame spacing looks ok but the vertical doesn't appear quite right to me. The best overall drawings I've yet found are the HAER drawings, which you may already have:
Victory ship Winthrop Victory Liberty ship Arthur Huddell The latter being a pipe laying vessel but the hull profile should be about the same. |
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Posted: 1/8/2021 10:06:38 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4v50: There are two Liberty Ships that have been restored: Jeremiah O'Brien in San Francisco and I think the John Brown on the East Coast. The O'Brien was restored in time to participate in the 50th anniversary of D-Day in Normandy. The smaller one could have Stephens Hopkins which was noted for sinking a German hilfskreuzer (auxilary cruiser or merchant raider). While the ships were merchant marine, they had a contingent of USN Reserve personnel (US Navy Armed Guards) that crewed the guns. In a mutually fatal combat, the Stephen Hopkins sank the KMS Hilfskreuzer Stier. BTW, I had an optical boresighter for the 20 mm Oerlikon that I donated to the O'Brien. There is this one. |
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Posted: 1/8/2021 10:44:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Seiran: I know. I'm just looking for a way to involve rivets Oh. Well, further research said one rivet per square inch was not overkill. 16 or 256 might be getting close.
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Posted: 1/8/2021 10:53:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: guns762]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By samusi01: Not having followed this at all, I am very much day late/dollar short here. The bow does look off; in fact, it looks more like the profile of a Victory than a Liberty. Frame spacing looks ok but the vertical doesn't appear quite right to me. The best overall drawings I've yet found are the HAER drawings, which you may already have: Victory ship Winthrop Victory Liberty ship Arthur Huddell The latter being a pipe laying vessel but the hull profile should be about the same. I agree with you. Hopefully Monday I can get a few kids to look closer at the bow and determine what we are doing wrong. Like i said, I did a quick check on the "Bow #1" frame and it was right. Seems really high.
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Posted: 1/9/2021 11:20:49 AM EDT
[#32]
This thread - and the young men and women involved in the project - continues to deliver.
<- age appropriate beverage for the youngsters, of course.
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Posted: 1/9/2021 11:40:20 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mak_380: Oh. Well, further research said one rivet per square inch was not overkill. 16 or 256 might be getting close. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mak_380: Originally Posted By Seiran: I know. I'm just looking for a way to involve rivets Oh. Well, further research said one rivet per square inch was not overkill. 16 or 256 might be getting close. 
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Posted: 1/12/2021 10:53:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: guns762]
[#34]
Update 1/12
Framing and now ribbing continue: We did go back and adjust a couple frames in the nose. Most needed to be raised a bit, and a couple needed the bottoms trimmed a bit. Not a whole lot of movement, just enough to line things up a bit more.       ETA: We also moved the 7 ft'r out to the break out area to work on details. 
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Posted: 1/12/2021 12:04:38 PM EDT
[#35]
A: Your fellow teachers must *love* it when projects get moved out to the hall.
B: How many students get the "we need a board stretcher" or "left handed saw" treatment? Freshman only? {They need this, for when they enter the Real World™!)
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Posted: 1/12/2021 12:34:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: guns762]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mak_380: A: Your fellow teachers must *love* it when projects get moved out to the hall. B: How many students get the "we need a board stretcher" or "left handed saw" treatment? Freshman only? {They need this, for when they enter the Real World™!) Yeah, not very popular when we do this. Not real bad till we go out there with a dremel and a wall board bit...... That is not looked at favorably . My students have learned to go down the hall and close all the doors when we start that up.We have a pretty good time most days in class, so it tends to be loud anyway. Music, banter, laughter...... people don't like that when they are lecturing. My fellow teachers are pretty great at putting up with our antics.  Haven't done the "board stretcher" thing in a while. Usually we are just too busy for that kind of goofing off.
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Posted: 1/12/2021 3:58:01 PM EDT
[#37]
20,000 decorative rivets is probably enough punishment for being a fish w/o having to get a Boatswain punch.
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Posted: 1/14/2021 10:41:13 AM EDT
[#38]
Update 1/14
We are getting closer to being able to 3D print some of the deck features on our 7 foot model. This was drawn up in CAD, using the plastic model that @gwitness donated to us! Thank you again!!  Our framing on the 14ft version is going well, but the bow profile is a little off at the top, so we had to scrap the top rib and rework it.    We are adding this to make sure we end up with the right contour.......  |
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Posted: 1/14/2021 11:12:25 AM EDT
[#39]
It will help to close in the bow if you cut a profile of the stem (perpendicular to the frames) and attach it so that your ribbands aren't ending in space. It also gives definition to the forefoot (area where the stem makes the turn into the keel), so it will be easier when you add the plating.
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Posted: 1/14/2021 7:28:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Yeah, not very popular when we do this. Not real bad till we go out there with a dremel and a wall board bit...... That is not looked at favorably . My students have learned to go down the hall and close all the doors when we start that up.We have a pretty good time most days in class, so it tends to be loud anyway. Music, banter, laughter...... people don't like that when they are lecturing. My fellow teachers are pretty great at putting up with our antics. I think most people keep their board stretcher next to their metric adjustable wrench if and when it comes to that. Haven't done the "board stretcher" thing in a while. Usually we are just too busy for that kind of goofing off. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Originally Posted By Mak_380: A: Your fellow teachers must *love* it when projects get moved out to the hall. B: How many students get the "we need a board stretcher" or "left handed saw" treatment? Freshman only? {They need this, for when they enter the Real World™!) Yeah, not very popular when we do this. Not real bad till we go out there with a dremel and a wall board bit...... That is not looked at favorably . My students have learned to go down the hall and close all the doors when we start that up.We have a pretty good time most days in class, so it tends to be loud anyway. Music, banter, laughter...... people don't like that when they are lecturing. My fellow teachers are pretty great at putting up with our antics. I think most people keep their board stretcher next to their metric adjustable wrench if and when it comes to that. Haven't done the "board stretcher" thing in a while. Usually we are just too busy for that kind of goofing off. |
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Posted: 1/14/2021 7:50:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ranxerox911: It will help to close in the bow if you cut a profile of the stem (perpendicular to the frames) and attach it so that your ribbands aren't ending in space. It also gives definition to the forefoot (area where the stem makes the turn into the keel), so it will be easier when you add the plating. We decided to take your advice......sort of. I'll update later when I can get on a PC. |
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Posted: 1/15/2021 10:45:10 AM EDT
[#42]
Update 1/15
We decided to cut off the front and the rear sections and just go with foam.     
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Posted: 1/15/2021 11:06:44 AM EDT
[#43]
That's not gonna deal w/ icebergs very well.
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Posted: 1/15/2021 11:22:23 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: We decided to take your advice......sort of. I'll update later when I can get on a PC. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Originally Posted By Ranxerox911: It will help to close in the bow if you cut a profile of the stem (perpendicular to the frames) and attach it so that your ribbands aren't ending in space. It also gives definition to the forefoot (area where the stem makes the turn into the keel), so it will be easier when you add the plating. We decided to take your advice......sort of. I'll update later when I can get on a PC. BTDT  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/15/2021 3:37:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryAwesome work there...... we were too lazy for that.
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Posted: 1/18/2021 11:47:11 AM EDT
[#46]
Update 1/18
Our small model of the S.S. John W Brown is not all assembled. We are using it exclusively for detail scaling on both ship hulls right now.  We decided to go with full foam on the bow and stern.       
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Posted: 1/18/2021 1:15:46 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: Update 1/18 Our small model of the S.S. John W Brown is not all assembled. We are using it exclusively for detail scaling on both ship hulls right now. https://i.imgur.com/W7ItA0M.jpg We decided to go with full foam on the bow and stern. https://i.imgur.com/v0PSgrq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/SRFPiEb.jpg https://i.imgur.com/XexdEU5.jpg https://i.imgur.com/igbDHlS.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2pgJqXO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/V1BNG2U.jpg https://i.imgur.com/HHYQe0j.jpg Looks good! I see you've already got the First Ding out of the way so you don't worry so much about somebody bumping into it. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 11:24:29 AM EDT
[#48]
Update 1/19
Hull contours continue.......there is foam everywhere......  As brass pointed out, on the bow, we had a void that showed up in the foam. We filled it with some chunks and even some spray in foam. The 2x4 is more of the problem than anything, but we plan to fill with bondo to smooth out.  Lots of trimming and sculpting.....    We also marked out where we want our hull hangers at, and got them set in place. I need to grab some bolts for permanent attachment.  We have some of the 3D printed parts ready for the 7 foot version. There will be a combination of both 3D printed and sculpted out of pen and ink board for the upper deck details.  Clock Girl continues to work on our submarine clock.  |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 11:39:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Won't the voids in the foam be covered by the painted cardboard hull plates? Or are you worried that the rivets might fall out?
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Posted: 1/19/2021 12:38:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: guns762]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Won't the voids in the foam be covered by the painted cardboard hull plates? Or are you worried that the rivets might fall out? Paper mache over the foam. No rivets. Weren't we told there were no rivets on the Liberty Ship hulls....all welded? |
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