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Posted: 4/24/2001 8:16:03 AM EDT
Can anyone explain to me why the American Armed Forces use a rifle that reportedly jams in combat conditions quite frequently? Although I understand the AR15/M16 series to be very accurate, it seems rather delicate compared to the rifles used by other nations. I've read that in the Gulf War and Somolia the soldiers had to keep their rifles wrapped in plastic to keep out dust and sand. While many other combat rifles may be technically less accurate, the ranges that I've been reading about where soldiers were fighting seems less than 100 yards. What gives?! OUCH
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:32:34 AM EDT
ok, i'll bite and speak. first ar's when properly built with the correct parts are NOT jamm prone. being deployed in an area with fine gritty sand with equipment that requires oil to lube it..... most of the equipment used in desert conditions require adaptive modifications. the sand can penetrate things you thought were sealed! even cars and trucks need special care. steve
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:38:03 AM EDT
Jam Prone? that's an OLD MYTH. I own multiple AR's and have never had a misfeed of any type. Unless you buy a Olympic Arms Turd Rifle, misfeeds, or Jams as you call them should be a very rare occurance.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:39:05 AM EDT
I believe most of the "jamming" problems were back in the 1960's when the rifle was first introduced into Vietnam. There is a good article on this at CSP Forum I believe. I never had a malfuntion, of any sort, with any M-16 I was issued while in the Infantry.{except when firing blanks with the blank attachment installed) And with the AR-15's I've had over the years, the only malfunctions were due to my reloads. No jams or malfunctions when using USGI surplus, or factory ammo.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:44:17 AM EDT
Compared to an AK it is not as reliable, but mine doesnt jam and any I had to work with never let me down. The AR has tighter tolerances than most other AW or MBR so it will deliver the goods farther than the AK family. But many of the bugs have been worked out so far. Sand creates problems for everything, Fals have sandcuts for those that play in the desert, AK`s dont need it because there`s more room for crud in their actions.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:45:06 AM EDT
the problem was like Andrew said was in the early 60's but to further explian They wearnt Issued with Cleaning kits early on and the switched the type of powder used in the ammo.becouse of the lack of cleaning kits and the poweder switch the gun jammed up like crazy when they finnaly issued cleaning kits the problem was solved
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:47:47 AM EDT
Hmmmph. I've fired around 3,000 to 4,000 rounds each year in practice and competition, since 1983, through a total of 9 different AR's, and had exactly four jams, plus one broken extractor. Guess I'm not qualified to say why they're so unreliable.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:52:40 AM EDT
HHUU? i guess it's pileing on but i have a bunch of AR's and they don't jam-period. As has already been pointed out, there was a problem 30 or so years ago. The problem, back then, was(to a large degree) that the rifles were issued without cleaning kit or cleaning/maintenance instructions in what i would characterize as a very gun unfriendly environment. I suppose if i don't clean my rifle for a long time, immerse it in the crud and then go rock and roll for a few mags i could feasably induce a jam. crappy ammo can also induce a jam possibly.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:03:46 AM EDT
I highly recommend picking up this months "Shooting Times" ".45 ACP & .223 AUTOLOADERS" magazine...then turn to page #26 and read the article by Wiley Clapp...titled "Colt's .223 HBAR Bucks 10,000 rounds" The ammo PMC 55gr FMJ WITHOUT A MALFUNCTION
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:06:24 AM EDT
well I have an OLY and it doesn't....well it does jam IN PUBLIC< IN FRONT OF PEOPLE < IN GLEN ROSE, DURING A COMPETITION SHOOT....but not when I am alone. And it was a bad mag not the rifle....ok?
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:13:34 AM EDT
ALL of those bad things you have heard about the AR-15 rifles are based from when the AR-15 FIRST CAME OUT.It was NOT the gun,but crappy ammo,which caused the barrel to crap up and whatnot.Once after the good quality ammo and kits were distributed to the troops,you will notice,in the last stretch of the Vietnam war,the AR-15 rifle performed great.Nowadays,just about EVERY free country in the world uses the AR-15 series rifle.Now...why would they use it just because we told them to? no,they know it's one of the best,most accurate,most flexible weapons ever created. "I'm the Sofa King!! my prices are Sofa-King low!!
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:30:27 AM EDT
[b]Can anyone explain to me why the American Armed Forces use a rifle that reportedly jams in combat conditions quite frequently? Although I understand the AR15/M16 series to be very accurate, it seems rather delicate compared to the rifles used by other nations. I've read that in the Gulf War and Somolia the soldiers had to keep their rifles wrapped in plastic to keep out dust and sand. While many other combat rifles may be technically less accurate, the ranges that I've been reading about where soldiers were fighting seems less than 100 yards. What gives?! OUCH [/b] I think the question was missed! he was saying the in the gulf war they had jams with there rifle's. i really thought it came from the magazines themself's they had to load 28 rounds or less; while our enemy CAN LOAD 30 AND FORGET ABOUT IT. M9 service pistol was the same way they had to load less than 15 shot's for it to be reliable. and they had to use tricks like condoms on the barrel's to keep the sand out. while our enemy could bury his weapon in the sand and it did not matter! you [b]you cannot abuse the mag whatsoever![/b]like you can a ak mag.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:31:23 AM EDT
Ouch you have oviesly never served in the ARMY, I can not rember ever having a jam with a M16, while i was in the army. The pos i owne know will jam often.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:46:58 AM EDT
Dont get wrong, I trust my AR's but you got to remember this is america, lowest bidder wins. just look at america's newest jet the "Raptor F-22", the F-23 was a far better aircraft but the raptor won because it was cheaper. Maybe the govt. should arm our forces with Bushmasters? which I think is a far better weapon than the colt. My 2.5 cents.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:48:30 AM EDT
i served in the army 11 bravo 2/17 INF Alaska. i was issued a M16A1. i just went with the topic. has for my ar15 mine's reliable.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:49:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ouch: Can anyone explain to me why the American Armed Forces use a rifle that reportedly jams in combat conditions quite frequently?
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Obviously they have not been able to locate and tap into the well of knowledge from which you obtained your information. As a result, the military is forced to rely on first hand information obtained only after spending infinite sums of money on evaluations.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:55:43 AM EDT
WTF you talkin' 'bout, Willis? How many times has YOUR M16/AR15 jammed, hmmmm? Try shooting one instead of parroting some BS you read somewhere. Or are you just trolling? [}:D]
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:57:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ouch: Can anyone explain to me why the American Armed Forces use a rifle that reportedly jams in combat conditions quite frequently? Although I understand the AR15/M16 series to be very accurate, it seems rather delicate compared to the rifles used by other nations. I've read that in the Gulf War and Somolia the soldiers had to keep their rifles wrapped in plastic to keep out dust and sand. While many other combat rifles may be technically less accurate, the ranges that I've been reading about where soldiers were fighting seems less than 100 yards. What gives?! OUCH
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The only rifle I know of that gave problems in the Gulf was the crappy British bullpup. In areas of sand dunes, I'd expect any type of rifles to have problems, and using plastic bags to keep the sand out is a good idea. Even with AKs, which can also jam. The fact is, countries that can afford new assault rifles tend to go with M-16s or similar. The British bullpup uses the "superior" AR-18 gas system, but it has not worked as well as our '16. AKs are used by those who can't afford new weapons.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 10:04:43 AM EDT
Why are AR's so jam prone?
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Answer: They aren't. Next question?
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 10:56:47 AM EDT
I've read that in the Gulf War and Somolia the soldiers had to keep their rifles wrapped in plastic to keep out dust and sand.
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I was on 3 desert deployments with my Cavalry Unit. We always had plastic trash bags on our weapons. This was only done so we could bypass the daily cleaning. We were never even issued ammo for the small arms anyway. I had a friend, Sgt. Zigler, who captured 100+ Iraqi soldiers with an unloaded, plastic wrapped M16. It didn't matter what climate/terrain we were in, the plastic trashbags were always used in the field. It had nothing to do with malfuntions. It was to avoid the 3 hours of daily cleaning on the weapon. We kept them compltely un-oiled in the field also. This kept foreign particles from sticking to the parts.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 11:06:28 AM EDT
I have carred the M-16, M-16A1, and M-16A2. I have had 2 jams in over 20 years(aside from with blanks). It sounds like someone has given Vietnam era info, and updated it to Saudi and Somalia. Modern mags are perfectly fine to be loaded to capacity. The M-16/AR-15 series is a fine weapon, it is very accurate, but requires some maintenance. The AK will take more abuse, but (most) is a "spray and pray" weapon.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 9:59:50 AM EDT
Unless you buy a Olympic Arms Turd Rifle, misfeeds, or Jams as you call them should be a very rare occurance.
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Two people on the same board with Olys and no jams? Now how can that be? Pass me an Orlite...
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 12:15:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 12:44:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 12:50:35 PM EDT
my ar has never jammed
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 1:16:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 5:10:10 PM EDT
The Stoner gas system employed in the AR10, and then later adapted to the AR-15 is one of the most positive acting gas systems in use today. No other sytem relieves the stress on the bolt before unlocking like this system does. IT WILL WORK DIRTY. IT WILL WORK LONGER. and a side benifit is that the basic design makes it inherently more accurate (no heavey metal parts clanging around on the barrel, bad thing for accuracy) than most, if not all, other locking bolt semiautos. Of course I own no firearms so this is all hear-say.
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