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Posted: 12/2/2002 1:10:36 AM EDT
I was baptized by the pouring method, I have read some religions/faiths feel that full immersion is the only way to be properly baptized. Here is some scripture that I think proves that pouring is just as acceptable in the Lords eyes as dunking. I would like to add no where does it say in the Bible one has to be dunked. First the Bible chapter and verse that many dunkers use to prove Jesus was fully immersed. Mathew Chapter 3 verse 16. "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him." No where does it say in the above chapter and verse that Jesus didn't have water poured on his head, it just says that he went up immediately from the water. Now proof that pouring is an acceptable method, to be baptized. This is what the Lord said, Ezekiel 36 verse 25. "Than I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you of all your filthiness and from all your idols." The above verse uses the word sprinkle which to me proves that to be sprinkled or to have water poured on ones head is an acceptable way to be baptized. It leaves no room for interpretation or speculation of what the Lord actually said. I feel so baptized now.[:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 1:19:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 1:28:14 AM EDT
I prefer the "skip it" method myself. [:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 2:30:10 AM EDT
To understand baptism, one must first understand why baptism was necessary and the meaning... Greek translation: Baptizo - from a der of bapto (a prim verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with fluid) to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet) used only in the N.T. of ceremonial absolution. Further in the Matthew passage you quote, it says in verse 16 "and after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water and behold, the heavens were opened and He saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him" The words "went up" translate to: anabaino - from and the base of; to go up; arise, ascend (up) climb, (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up) So, what I gather from this is Jesus came up from the water after being wholly covered with fluid... Looks like full immersion was the call of the day according to the greek translation... The O.T. reference you make in Ezekiel says just what you said it does.."Sprinkle"..Even in hebrew it's called Zaraq..To sprinkle..No mention of full immersion... Hope this answers your question.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 2:56:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Az_Redneck: Greek translation: Baptizo - from a der of bapto (a prim verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with fluid) to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet) used only in the N.T. of ceremonial absolution. Looks like full immersion was the call of the day according to the greek translation...
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In Mark 7:4, Jesus is dealing with some pharisees. He's talking about the ceremonial washing they did for their meals. He said they do this washing to their cups, kettles, pitchers, [b]and couches[/b]. Guess what the Greek word is there? It's baptisontai, the same root verb. Was Jesus saying they carried their couches down to the river to completely submerge them? The episode in Acts of Phillip and the Ethiopian took place on a nortoriously arid road also. As for "coming up" from the water, that doesn't mean that He was [i]in[/i] the water. It means He came up from the river...It doesn't prove anything. Sprinkle, pour or dunk, the important thing is that you have water, and the Word. To get all wrapped up in quantities and methods is to become as bad as the pharisees whom Jesus rebuked so often. fwiw Scott
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 3:27:07 AM EDT
Being a Baptist, we believe in dunking. We are dedicated as babies in front of the congregation. This doesn't involve water at all but a promise from the congregation to help raise the baby properly if the parents are killed. We are dunked when we are of age to make the decision. Usually about 10 years old. There are 16 or 17 different types of Baptists, I'm an American Baptist, we're pretty conservative. Remember, Jesus was dunked by John the Baptist.......
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 3:32:24 AM EDT
According to my Bible (NAS) Mark 7:4 says nothing about couches. But it does say in the verse before in 7:3 " (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; Wash in this verse IS NOT the same.. Wash: nipto - to cleanse (especially the hands and feet or the face) It does say in verse 7:4 that they cleansed themselves (baptizo) and they washed (baptismos)cups, pitchers and copper pots...Nothing wrong with "wholly whelming" objects such as these as hebrew law regarding cleanliness was/is very strict. Another thing to look at if you want to discuss washing... Jesus says in Matthew 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence" Clean: katharizo - to cleanse, make clean, purge, purify.. I have no argument whether a person gets dunked or not. That is not up to me. I only entered the thread in an attempt to answer the original posters question. I was just pointing out Biblical references..Just like I did in this post. Now, what about Phillip and the etheopian in Acts?
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:11:40 AM EDT
You know what is amazing about the human race? Not only do they come up with some completely subjective belief structure to placate their fears of the unknown, and then further use that belief structure to divide and separate each other on the basis of whether or not their imaginary deity character is better than another person's imaginary deity character; they further come up with subjective rituals and use those as a means of divisiveness between each other. Who cares if a person sprinkles or dunks. Maybe the only truthful, proper method for baptism is to let the green monkeys pee on you.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:45:44 AM EDT
Thank you [b]BenDover[/b] for your productive and helpful comments on a subject on which you clearly have no carefully thought out position. Save your thoughts for the 'Green Monkey Piss' Thread, OK? It's something to which you [u]may[/u] have some insight. Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:01:06 AM EDT
I was hoping the Hun would show up, welcome to the thread Eric, it's always a pleasure and learning experience when you show up dude.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:01:09 AM EDT
Now that I have the 'heretic' faction of the Board addressed, let me say this about water baptism by full immersion. The very root word of baptism or baptize is the Greek word, baptizmo, which, according to the generally accepted definition of that word, meant 'to dye.' In order to 'dye' something, every piece and bit of the fabric must be submerged underneath the dying agent. If sprinkling sufficed, there was no need for John to Baptist to be found on the Jordan River near Aenon, 'where there was much water.' If sprinkling sufficed, there was no reason for Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch to have commanded the chariot to stop and, as the Bible so clearly states, both Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water. Surely, this wealthy Ethiopian had a water bag on his chariot that could have been used to sprinkle water upon his head? Paul says that water baptism is our initiation into the Body of Christ, that just as Christ went into the tomb and was covered up, we also go into the water and are covered up. [b]Romans 6[/b] 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 [b]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death[/b]: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 [b]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.[/b] 'Planted' together in the likeness of His death? Hmmm, sounds like baptism by immersion to me. And to the Church for almost 2,000 years! BTW, archeologists excavating in the Holy Land consider that they have found an ancient church when they discover indoor cisterns in buildings that are sufficiently large enough for two adults to get inside for a baptism ceremony. This phenomenon is [u]unknown[/u] before the Christian Era in the Holy Land! The Roman historians of the earliest Christian period, tell of the ritual 'bath' that all initiates into the Christian religion underwent upon their 'conversion.' Now, it may be that the Lord is quite forgiving in this area, but I wouldn't count on it! I mean, I wouldn't stake my immortal soul on a belief that the plain meaning of the Scriptures could be so easily ignored or set aside! Eric The(Regenerated)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:02:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:04:17 AM EDT
ETH... you know that I have plenty of knowledge of Christian doctrine. This particular topic is a pet peeve with me because I have seen it completely divide people and allow them to behave in a completely non-Christian fashion. It is completely asinine when a fundamentalist comes up to a Lutheran and tells them that their relationship with God is inferior because they were sprinkled with water instead of being dunked. It's one of those obvious friction areas that is often abused.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:05:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Az_Redneck: According to my Bible (NAS) Mark 7:4 says nothing about couches. But it does say in the verse before in 7:3 " (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; Wash in this verse IS NOT the same.. Wash: nipto - to cleanse (especially the hands and feet or the face)
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And here we see the trouble with your argument. You're not arguing from the Greek. If you look up Mark 7:4 in the [i]Greek,[/i] it does NOT have nipto as the verb, but, as I said earlier, Baptizontai. Also, in the Greek NT the aparatus tells you that some ancient manuscripts do indeed include couches (kjv 'tables').
I have no argument whether a person gets dunked or not. That is not up to me. I only entered the thread in an attempt to answer the original posters question. I was just pointing out Biblical references..Just like I did in this post.
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And I was just pointing out Biblical references to demonstrate that the Greek word does not always mean, nor does it mandate immersion.
Now, what about Phillip and the etheopian in Acts?
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That's the other "came up from the water" verse that usually gets lumped into this conversation where I have seen it before. Experts say that the road they were on is in an extremely arid region, so when they found water, it wasn't a river or lake, but at best a puddle that would soon be evaporated... Sorry, but I don't have a reference for that... fwiw Scott
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:10:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmymud: I am southern Baptist and I don't care what type of baptism you have as long as you have Christ in your heart and have accepted him as your lord and savior. Period.
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AMEN!
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:16:39 AM EDT
My fingers are frozen over the keyboard while I try to figure out how to express my thoughts without making anyone in particular upset...such is the case with a Topic like this. My thoughts: I am a Christian. I believe that Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH. I believe that baptism is a WORK and an outward proclamation of said faith. I think it is a great gesture and a source of peace for those that wish to partake in the ritual, whatever form it takes. Baby sprinkling is kind of like an insurance policy for the parents' sake. The kid has to grow up and make a decision about their faith on their own. I believe if they choose to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, HE will accept them into HIS Kingdom, regardless of what type of baptism or even IF they are baptized in a ritual. What leads me to believe that baptism is not 'required' for Salvation is the fact that Jesus told the thief, as they were both being crucified on the cross: "Today, you shall be with Me in Paradise"... NOT: "...get thy self off the cross; go get fully immersed in water; come back; and THEN you'll see Paradise today; OR ELSE!!!" It seems to me that the man's FAITH was his Salvation. Much like the leper that simply believed in Jesus and was healed. Or any other number of people that expressed their simple FAITH. The ultimate healing is HEAVEN. Your FAITH is all that is required to get you there. The ultimate price was paid on the Cross. Jesus already did the hardwork on your behalf. That's what I think. "YMMV", as the saying goes.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:22:05 AM EDT
Ceremony supercedes substance? Give me a break. Baptism is about what happens to the spirit, not the body. I'm usually 'right on' with the Hun when he posts, but I refuse to believe the fate of my immortal soul is contigent upon which ceremony I participate and believe in. All smiles here.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:23:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: ETH... you know that I have plenty of knowledge of Christian doctrine. This particular topic is a pet peeve with me because I have seen it completely divide people and allow them to behave in a completely non-Christian fashion. It is completely asinine when a fundamentalist comes up to a Lutheran and tells them that their relationship with God is inferior because they were sprinkled with water instead of being dunked. It's one of those obvious friction areas that is often abused.
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Leaping Lizards! [b]BenDover[/b], what do you say to these verses: [b]Matthew 10:[/b] 34 [red][b]Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.[/b][/red] 35 [red][b]For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.[/b][/red] There is no time during Jesus' earthly ministry that He placed a greater emphasis on the need for Christian fellowship over and above the purity of the Scripture and the simple Commandments of God. He doesn't want 'numbers', He wants obedience! So, while this new ecumenical spirit is great for the mainline Protestant religions (who, BTW, are losing tens of thousands of adherents every year, while the fundamentalists continue to grow), as they cozy up to Moslems, Bahai, and others, it does [u]nothing[/u] to advance the cause of [b]Jesus Christ[/b]. You know, our Lord and Savior! They seek to round off the harsher edges of Christ's simple commands, so as to make His 'religion' more palatable to the Pharisees and Scribes of our present day! As for me, Give me that Old Time Religion! [:D] Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:25:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: It's one of those obvious friction areas that is often abused.
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FRICTION AREA. "...what's the rub, Bub?" ...and, I changed it to the 'fill in the blank':
Originally Posted By cmymud: I am a [red]_______________[/red] and I don't care what type of baptism you have as long as you have Christ in your heart and have accepted him as your lord and savior. Period.
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Brevity is beautiful! [:D]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:26:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The very root word of baptism or baptize is the Greek word, baptizmo,
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Actually, it's just "Baptizo," and I addressed that word in my previous post.
If sprinkling sufficed, there was no need for John to Baptist to be found on the Jordan River near Aenon, 'where there was much water.'
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First off, John's was not Christian baptism. Second, if you're baptizing crowds of people every day, then you need "much water" period.
Hmmm, sounds like baptism by immersion to me. And to the Church for almost 2,000 years!
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This one really gets me Eric. I'm sure house churches under the persecution did not have a baptistry, nor did they spend a lot of time down at the river preaching and baptizing. No, the Church (capital C) has not made such a law about the Gospel gift that is baptism.
Now, it may be that the Lord is quite forgiving in this area, but I wouldn't count on it!
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You wouldn't count on the forgiveness of the Lord Jesus? What else can we depend on? Nothing. If it's up to me to be baptized correctly in order to be saved, I'm doomed because my flesh always fails and my mind is never pure. Woe is me. I think I will depend on the gracious mercy of God in that I [b]do[/b] have Faith in Christ Jesus, so my baptism must have been ok... [:)] I realize that I am not likely to change your mind, nor you mine, but hey, I like to discuss it.
Eric The(Regenerated)Hun[>]:)]
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Hey, Me too! [:)] Scott
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:31:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 5:42:40 AM EDT by Scottman]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: So, while this new ecumenical spirit is great for the mainline Protestant religions (who, BTW, are losing tens of thousands of adherents every year, while the fundamentalists continue to grow), as they cozy up to Moslems, Bahai, and others, it does [u]nothing[/u] to advance the cause of [b]Jesus Christ[/b].
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Not all "Mainline Protestant Religions" do that tho...and not all people are what the sign says. Edited To clarify: For Example, you may see a sign that says "This is a Lutheran Church" and inside you find the official doctrine of the larger body is that abortion is up to a woman to decide, and their health plan even pays for abortions. Ol' Doctor Martin spins in his grave because Lutherans are Christians and abortion is not Christian. Thing is, some "Lutherans" have taken the name and really aren't Lutherans. Some still are. I'm sure the same is true in many bodies today. fwiw... Scott (Missouri Synod [the conservative, traditional] Lutheran Christian)
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:36:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 5:37:19 AM EDT by Scottman]
Originally Posted By BusMaster007: What leads me to believe that baptism is not 'required' for Salvation is the fact that Jesus told the thief, as they were both being crucified on the cross: "Today, you shall be with Me in Paradise"... NOT: "...get thy self off the cross; go get fully immersed in water; come back; and THEN you'll see Paradise today; OR ELSE!!!"
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It's important to note that the thief on the cross was a part of the old covenant. His Faith in the Messiah was prior to Jesus' completion of being forsaken by God and raised from the dead. As far as baptism being a work, it is, it's a work of God! It's where He adopts you and gives you the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is what Peter says in Acts 2.
It seems to me that the man's FAITH was his Salvation.
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Indeed it was, just like it is today, and Faith comes chiefly by hearing the Word of God. I read somewhere that "it is not a lack of baptism [or the incorrect "method"] but the despising of baptism that damns." Again, fwiw Scott
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:42:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 5:43:14 AM EDT by ar15bubba]
What leads me to believe that baptism is not 'required' for Salvation is the fact that Jesus told the thief, as they were both being crucified on the cross: "Today, you shall be with Me in Paradise"... NOT: "...get thy self off the cross; go get fully immersed in water; come back; and THEN you'll see Paradise today; OR ELSE!!!"
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The church was not established until Jesus was raised from the dead, and the day of pentacost came to pass. The scriptures where not fulfilled until Jesus was raised from the dead. They were under the old law when Jesus talked with the thief. We are baptized to be buried and raised with Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. Jesus was neither dead, buried or raised yet. Relevant verses to this issue: How many baptisms are there? [b]Ephesians 4:3-6[/b] (NIV) Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Do we have to be baptized to be saved: [b]Mark 16:15-16[/b] (NIV) He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. To the unbelievers out there: [b]I Corinthians 2:18-25[/b] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[3] 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:48:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 5:55:01 AM EDT by BenDover]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Leaping Lizards! [b]BenDover[/b], what do you say to these verses: [b]Matthew 10:[/b] 34 [red][b]Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.[/b][/red] 35 [red][b]For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.[/b][/red] There is no time during Jesus' earthly ministry that He placed a greater emphasis on the need for Christian fellowship over and above the purity of the Scripture and the simple Commandments of God. He doesn't want 'numbers', He wants obedience! So, while this new ecumenical spirit is great for the mainline Protestant religions (who, BTW, are losing tens of thousands of adherents every year, while the fundamentalists continue to grow), as they cozy up to Moslems, Bahai, and others, it does [u]nothing[/u] to advance the cause of [b]Jesus Christ[/b]. You know, our Lord and Savior! They seek to round off the harsher edges of Christ's simple commands, so as to make His 'religion' more palatable to the Pharisees and Scribes of our present day!
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I say this in response to your verses as they pertain to those who would use a doctrinal difference to rebuke those who have accepted Christ as their Saviour, but are not of one's own denomination or those who follow differing rituals. Rom.8 [1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [ 8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Matt. 7 [15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Col. 3 [12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; [13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. [14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. [16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [17] And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Heretic? Hardly. Lunatic? Maybe. Agnostic? Probably.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 6:13:28 AM EDT
Post from TWIRE -
Ceremony supercedes substance? Give me a break.
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Here's His answer: [b]Matthew 3:[/b] 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, [red][b]Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.[/b][/red] Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hmmm, in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled.... Doesn't sound like a simple ceremony to me, even more so that the Heavenly Father put His own stamp of approval on the act of Jesus' baptism by John.
Baptism is about what happens to the spirit, not the body.
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It is only our devout obedience to his simple command: [b]Mark 16:[/b] 15 And he said unto them, [red][b]Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.[/b][/red] 16 [red][b]He that believeth [u]and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red] Pretty simple, eh? The Church thought so for nearly 2,000 years. Now we have wolves who preach another doctrine to His sheep, and some there are who believe the wolves' new doctrine. Eric The(Old,ReallyOld,TimeReligion)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 6:25:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 6:36:49 AM EDT by BenDover]
And which of the three baptisms is he referring to in Mark 16:16? Or am I a wolf for questioning the fact that in the entire chapter of Mark 16, water baptism is not mentioned a single time in context - yet there are references to spiritual baptism (17-20)? I stand by my original statement. An attempt to divide God's children for any reason is in direct contradiction to the admonishments in Colossians 3. There are other scriptural references to further reprove Christians from such actions when it's clear that we have been given a rather simple set of rules which to abide by. 'Spiritual baptism' is clearly a requirement while water baptism can be construed as a physical representation as Jesus was using it to show a physical example of what was supposed to be happening inside one's heart by accepting His word. Aside from accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour, putting God before all thiungs and loving your brother as yourself, all other rituals could be construed as carnal flesh with enough scriptural evidence to support the theory. Let me go an howl now.... I think I hear Little Red Riding Hood coming down the path..... Oh yeah.... one other thing.... what happened to not having enough acumen in the matter to establish a position? I went from heratic to false prophet in about 20 minutes. Not bad for a morning's effort.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 6:44:20 AM EDT
Originally posted by EricTheHun:
Now, it may be that the Lord is quite forgiving in this area, but I wouldn't count on it!
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To which, Scottman replies:
You wouldn't count on the forgiveness of the Lord Jesus?
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Not on such a matter of significance that was so plainly taught by the Master Himself. But to receive forgiveness, my Brother, you must first relaize you are wrong, repent, and change your course of action. And you certainly must stop preaching error to His sheep.
What else can we depend on? Nothing. If it's up to me to be baptized correctly in order to be saved, I'm doomed because my flesh always fails and my mind is never pure. Woe is me.
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Nonsense, just follow the clear and unequivocal example of the Lord. Get baptized in the same manner as He. For the very same reason - In order that all righteousness might be fulfilled. Pretty simple. It was and is, after all, a Gospel written for the unread, the unlearned, the unwashed, the masses, the carpenters, the fishermen, the day laborers, the down and out, the prolitariat, the hoi polloi, however, you wish to call them. And for me and you.
I think I will depend on the gracious mercy of God in that I do have Faith in Christ Jesus, so my baptism must have been ok...
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Hold onto that lovely Hallmark thought! I hope and pray that it does some good in the next world, for what I have seen there will be many using it. Eric The()Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 6:50:37 AM EDT
Post from BenDover -
Oh yeah.... one other thing.... what happened to not having enough acumen in the matter to establish a position? I went from heratic to false prophet in about 20 minutes. Not bad for a morning's effort.
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All wolves are heretics. Period. No, you went from 'heretic' to 'sorta professing heretic' in twenty minutes. The Lord Himself would be proud. Eric The(Uh,Yeah)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 6:55:21 AM EDT
Post from BenDover -
And which of the three baptisms is he referring to in Mark 16:16?
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[b]Ephesians 4:[/b] 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 [b]One Lord, one faith, one baptism,[/b] 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Hmmm, I would hazard that Jesus was referring to the one and only baptism, from which we receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The [u]same[/u] baptism of which the Church understood for several centuries before some in it, fell away, and listened to Third and Fourth Century [b]BenDovers[/b]! [:D] Eric The(Waterlogged)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:11:55 AM EDT
Heathen Troll Alert :) Moderators shouldnt "troll" on threads they disagree with..imo You dont believe in God or Christ that is between you and Him as far as Im concerned.. Let the Christians iron out escatological differnences without having a troll sneak in and try to disrupt the flow of commo... :)
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:15:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: ETH... you know that I have plenty of knowledge of Christian doctrine. This particular topic is a pet peeve with me because I have seen it completely divide people and allow them to behave in a completely non-Christian fashion. It is completely asinine when a fundamentalist comes up to a Lutheran and tells them that their relationship with God is inferior because they were sprinkled with water instead of being dunked. It's one of those obvious friction areas that is often abused.
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If You "have plenty of knowledge of Christian doctrine", then you know the "fundamentalist" is correct. What's the problem? It is the "false prophets", and "teachers" that divide the church, just as in Apostolic times.....
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:15:52 AM EDT
Hun, I recognize your points, but I respectfully disagree. The argument of substance over ceremony was one of the big issues that Jesus had with the Pharisees. They complied with the letter of the law and clearly their performance (alone) of the law was not judged as adequate without the proper spiritual insight. Interesting topic.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:23:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 7:24:43 AM EDT by BenDover]
Actually, death could also be considered a form of baptism in context of [b]Col. 2:12[/b][i] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.[/i] So if in Mark 16:16 he is referring to spiritual baptism, and in Eph 4:5 is refers to ONE baptism, how logically can one receive baptism of the spirit only when they receive baptism by water? Particularly when in Acts, baptism of the spirit is discussed in a manner which supercedes the baptism of water? Acts 18 [24] And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. [25] This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. [26] And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. [27] And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: [28] For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. Acts 19 [1] And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, [2] He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. [3] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. [4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Seems pretty clear to me Brother Hun. Even during Jesus' time on earth, baptism by water repentance was the dispensation. Following Christ's ascension, water baptism fell away with the new dispensation being that of baptism of the Holy Spirit. Heracy! Howooooooooooo!!!! This wolf costume sure is getting hot.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:26:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 7:28:18 AM EDT by Scottman]
Here's a question... How did the 12 immerse 3000 people in one day on Pentecost? In another topic re:plain Scripture, I wonder what you think about the Lord's Supper? Scott
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:29:22 AM EDT
Not sure this is the proper place to be asking this question. You need to check with the leader of your faith and see what they say and why...then if you dont buy it, go elswhere.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:33:02 AM EDT
quoted from a couple of intelligent and articulate gentlemen: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." It does NOT say: "...but he that believeth not [red][b]and is baptized not[/red][/b] shall be damned." Simple word and phrase twisting has caused more damage and grief than simply believing in Jesus and spreading the Word. That's where my idea that FAITH and God's GRACE play a more important role in a Christian's Salvation than arguing/debating the finer points of "I'm gonna go to Heaven and you're not, so, neener-neener-neener!" or, "I'm a better Christian than you are..." It sort of falls along the line of 'Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.' God is the Judge, not Man. The trouble starts when Christians argue to the point of being arrogant or pitying 'other Christians' for their doctrinal differences. CHRIST is the operative part of the word and way of Christianity. Believe in Me, He said. That's all He ever asked us to do. Everything else is gravy. [:D] Seeya There.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:35:38 AM EDT
Post from TWIRE -
They complied with the letter of the law and clearly their performance (alone) of the law was not judged as adequate without the proper spiritual insight.
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Who says the 'proper spiritual insight' is ever lacking at any believer's baptism? That is between the believer and the Lord. In our particular congregation, whenever a believer gets baptized, the whole congregation breaks out in spontaneous hymns, sung [i][b]a capella[/i][/b], which, as you know, means simply 'in the manner of the Church.' Yes, it is an interesting subject. Almost, one would say, a matter of life and death. [:D] Eric The(EternalLifeAndEternalDeath)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:44:05 AM EDT
Post from BusMaster007 -
quoted from a couple of intelligent and articulate gentlemen: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." It does NOT say: "...but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned."
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Jesus disn't have to say that! [:D] [b]If he 'believeth not' what in the Dickens good would baptism do for him?[/b] Baptism does not stand in for belief, it is an outward sign of the inward conviction! [b]It is the answer of a good conscience toward God![/b] [b]The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.[/b] 1 Peter 3:21 [b]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[/b] Romans 6:4 [b]One Lord, one faith, one baptism[/b] Ephesians 4:5 [b]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.[/b] Colossians 2:12 How can you say you've been united with Christ in His death, if you've never been baptized? Show me [u]that[/u] scripture! Eric The(Simple)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:15:56 AM EDT
I always enjoy watching people, especially professed Christians, using scripture as a debate weapon to prove their own sect's beliefs. [/sarcasm] Gentlemen, I cannot see how this is pleasing to Him.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:19:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 8:23:21 AM EDT by BenDover]
legrue... that was my original point to begin with.... only I'm agnostic (for these very reasons), not a devout believer. But then again, from the getgo I was considered a heretic and a wolf (coming from a Christian, mind you). Yes, ETH... it IS simple. If you've accepted Christ as your Saviour, when you die a natural death, you can no longer sin via your flesh. Therefore, you have been baptised unto death as stated in Romans. I had to give ETH a good ol' roundabout this morning. It's been a while since a classic Garandman/ETH thread.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:30:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 8:32:00 AM EDT by MIerinMD]
I too find it distressing that my Christian brothers of the other denominations seem to be pointing the "I'm going to Heaven and you're not" stick around. Even IF one type of baptism was 'more correct' than the other, wouldn't it be the objective of a true Christian to actually try to help the other seek the Truth rather than simply ridicule him for being 'wrong?' Additionally: Isn't PRIDE (in one's own presumtive righteousness) also one of the seven deadly sins? Just a thought.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:24:03 AM EDT
Post from legrue -
Gentlemen, I cannot see how this is pleasing to Him.
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What is pleasing to Him, is to keep His word. He gave us His example and said '[red][b]Follow Me.'[/b][/red] That shouldn't be [u]too[/u] difficult to do. The problem comes when we deviate from that Highway of Holiness onto some gravel road. The very earliest Christians had no problems following His example, to the letter. It took great men of learning who could quibble about the meaning of such ordinary words. You can holler and squawk all you wish, but I would suggest that you follow the example of the Old Testament character Naaman the Syrian, who when the great prophet told him to go and dip himself in the River Jordan seven times to be healed by the Lord of his leprosy, used his human wisdom to question the prophet, 'Are there not cleaner rivers in Syria?' Only when he did precisely as the Lord had said, was he cleansed of his disease. [b]2 Kings 5:[/b] 9 So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, [b]My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?[/b] 14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. My brothers, if [b]Jesus[/b] had asked you to do a great thing to be saved, you would do it with a flourish, but when He meekly asks such a simple thing be done, you balk! Just put yourself in His shoes. OK? Eric The(Faithful)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:33:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Baptism does not stand in for belief, it is an outward sign of the inward conviction!
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Is the Lord not omnipresent and kickass enough to know and accept our inward convictions, without us needing to provide Him written proof or sworn affidavits or elaborate ceremonies? If this question is far too newbie, please reply by IM.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:40:13 AM EDT
Post from MIerinMD -
I too find it distressing that my Christian brothers of the other denominations seem to be pointing the "I'm going to Heaven and you're not" stick around.
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I have no earthly idea whether I'm going to Heaven or not when I leave this world. How can I comment on whether someone else is or not? What I'm saying that we cannot rightly call [b]Jesus[/b] our Master or our Lord, if we keep not His commandments! [b]Do you deny [u]that[/u]?[/b] If you do, I can show you chapter and verse....
Even IF one type of baptism was 'more correct' than the other, wouldn't it be the objective of a true Christian to actually try to help the other seek the Truth rather than simply ridicule him for being 'wrong?'
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Who's ridiculing anyone in this thread for what they believe about full immersion baptism? I'm citing Scripture, if someone chokes on it, oh, well...
Additionally: Isn't PRIDE (in one's own presumtive righteousness) also one of the seven deadly sins?
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[u]All[/u] sins are deadly. Trying to show someone the Truth is not a matter of pride, at all. It's not [u]my[/u] Truth. I don't have a monopoly on the Truth, do you?
Just a thought.
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Yes, thanks a lot for your input into the discussion. Eric The(Crusader)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:40:19 AM EDT
Baptism? One word: Supersoaker.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:53:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Nonsense, just follow the clear and unequivocal example of the Lord. Get baptized in the same manner as He. For the very same reason - In order that all righteousness might be fulfilled.
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Clear and unequivocal... Must it be a river? If so: How deep? How wide? What rate of flow? If not: How much water do I need? How big a container? Salt/fresh/Dirty/Clean? Moving Water or stationary? What should I wear? Should I squat or lay back? Hold my nose or not? And lastly, according to the clear example of Jesus, I should [b]not[/b] be baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, since He, in His clear example, was not. Have I got this all right? I do want to be sure, after all! See what we have done when we get all hung up on method and quantity etc? We make a LAW out of the Gospel gift of Baptism. Scott
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:55:10 AM EDT
Post from the Scottman -
Here's a question... How did the 12 immerse 3000 people in one day on Pentecost?
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Are you saying it couldn't be done? That it is a [u]physical[/u] impossibility? Why would [u]only[/u] 12 be baptizing anyway? Do you have some revelation into this simple Gospel story that the others of us do not? The story is quite clear: [b]Acts 2:[/b] 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, [b]Men and brethren, what shall we do?[/b] 38 Then Peter said unto them, [b]Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[/b] 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 [b]Then they that gladly received his word were [u]baptized[/u]: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.[/b] I don't see much room in there for any dispute, do you?
In another topic re:plain Scripture, I wonder what you think about the Lord's Supper?
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What, transubstantiation? Do you stumble on that one as well? [:D] Forgetting whether or not the wine and bread become the actual blood and body of Christ, it, too, along with baptism, are the only sacraments of His Church that were instituted by Him. Others have added sacraments, but not Him. I believe, personally, that the wine and bread do become the blood and body TO US. The most important part, however, is that it be done! Your mileage may vary.... Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:01:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: I have no earthly idea whether I'm going to Heaven or not when I leave this world. How can I comment on whether someone else is or not?
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Now [b]that[/b] is frightening! I know that my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life, and I will be in Heaven in the end. How do I know? Because when it comes to my Faith, it is God's work, for which I am eternally thankful! (Eph 2:8-10) It blows my mind that a Christain, such an outspoken one as you even, would have a doubt as to his salvation. Scary stuff. Scott(Heaven bound.)
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:07:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Are you saying it couldn't be done? That it is a [u]physical[/u] impossibility? By immersion, it would surely take a looooooong time. [quote I don't see much room in there for any dispute, do you?
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I don't dispute that 3000 were baptized. Just seems that there's a time constraint. I dunno.
What, transubstantiation? Do you stumble on that one as well? [:D]
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Not at all, tho I do believe that they are still bread and wine (sort of a "simul-substantiation). I brought it up because most of the folks I talk to that use the same argument for Baptism tell me there is no way the bread could be His body... I'm glad you agree that you eat and drink the actual body and blood of the Lord.
[The Lord's Supper], along with baptism, are the only sacraments of His Church that were instituted by Him.
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Agreed. Scott
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:08:55 AM EDT
Post from the Scottman -
And lastly, according to the clear example of Jesus, I should not be baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, since He, in His clear example, was not.
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Really? In which of the four Gospel stories of the baptism of [b]Jesus[/b] are we given the actual language that John the Baptist used when he baptized [u]Jesus[/b]? Are we adding to the Biblical story? Perish the thought! Eric The(Scrupulous)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:16:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
In another topic re:plain Scripture, I wonder what you think about the Lord's Supper?
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What, transubstantiation? Do you stumble on that one as well? [:D] Forgetting whether or not the wine and bread become the actual blood and body of Christ, it, too, along with baptism, are the only sacraments of His Church that were instituted by Him. Others have added sacraments, but not Him. I believe, personally, that the wine and bread do become the blood and body TO US. The most important part, however, is that it be done! Your mileage may vary.... Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]
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Where did this come from? You were doing real well and I stayed out of the baptism argument, but then you throw in transubstantiation.. That's a whole nother topic :) Now I'm real confused....I'm going back to bed. Hold the fort down...This is gonna get VERY interesting....
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