Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 11/28/2002 12:04:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 12:13:00 AM EDT by DScottHewitt]
I think prisons should be underground. Each prisoner should have a ten foot by five foot cell with a six foot ceiling, cement sleeping platform, a toilet, and a sink to wash in. Feed them in their cell. No windows. No books. No TV. They get ten years? They spend ten years in that little room. Life in prison? [b]LIFE IN THAT ROOM!!!!![/b] Death penalty? 1) Strip them nekkid 2) Strap them to a steel table 3) Pour on one litre of gasoline 4) Strike a match 5) Light criminal 6) Come back in a week to dispose of body [b]SHOW IT ON EVERY TELEVISION CHANNEL FROM STRAP-DOWN TO LIGHTING THE FIRE. DISPLAY THE REST ON SPECIAL "EXECUTION" CHANNELS TO DETER CRIME[/b] Scott
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 12:08:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 12:41:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 12:44:42 AM EDT by Redmanfms]
Why coddle prisoners?????
View Quote
Because harsh treatment of prisoners has never shown to be effective in reducing recidivism in America. Increasing prison sentences proves only to be a temporary fix when dealing with crime rates (because eventually the next generation steps up to bat). While I support the use of the death penalty, it has never shown to prevent violent crime, and is actually more expensive than life imprisonment in terms of costs incurred by the state. Places where prison is really harsh (like California and Mexico) have phenomenal crime rates. Making prison torturous just doesn't do the law-abiding public any good. "Truth in sentencing" laws (which we have in VA by the by) only cause a substantial increase in prison populations. Luckily VA actually has excess space because of massive prison building programs over the last twenty years, something that "makes" the state money. Other states, like California, already have serious overpopulation problems, turning their prisons into absolute nightmares. That isn't a good thing. And what if you get sent to prison? Plenty of people have been falsely convicted. Plenty of people get busted for stuff they didn't even know was illegal.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 1:27:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 3:40:58 AM EDT
Just wait until your butt is thrown into prison for some arcane and incomprehensible gun law. Then we'll see how much of a hard ass you are.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 3:54:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Why coddle prisoners?????
View Quote
Because harsh treatment of prisoners has never shown to be effective in reducing recidivism in America.
View Quote
Who cares? Prison is for punishment. You do something wrong and you get punished, if you do something wrong again then you get punished again. You keep doing stuff wrong and I keep punishing. It's that easy. However, I disagree that prisoners should simply be locked in a room for the entire time of their sentence. I think that all time should be served at hard labor. Each prisoner should generate as much money as it's costing to have them incarcerated. What, you've got health problems? Tough shit, you should keep your nose clean. If you die in prison then we let you out early, but that's the only reason you might get out early. Also, for violent felonies, it's an automatic 50 year sentence. Let's see how much trouble you cause when you get out and you're 75 there bud.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 4:36:16 AM EDT
you people would be crying a different story if a loved one was murdered or your wife was raped right in front of you. i for one would try to see they person dosnt make it to jail ;)
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 5:11:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By evhwg: you people would be crying a different story if a loved one was murdered or your wife was raped right in front of you. i for one would try to see they person dosnt make it to jail ;)
View Quote
I completely agree. I believe in an eye for an eye. I also hold grudges for a very, very long time.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 5:34:54 AM EDT
Some of the reasons why they have Tv and other stuff that seems "too nice" is that it is cost effective; prisoners who get access to TV are less violent and require fewer COs to watch them constantly. I agree that prison should not be a country club, but as a civilized society, we have an obligation to at least treat our prisoners in a civilized manner. Right now, there is big scandal about inadequate medical care for prisoners in my state. Prisoners ae dying of simple conditions that could be easily treated, or have totally incompetent doctors. I have little sympathy for our career criminals (and I've put a few away myself), but when the state takes responsibility for someone, they also take responsibility for their relative well-being. Most prisons in my state aren't air-conditioned, prisons ban tobacco, and require the prisoners to work, and I don't have any problem with that. Allowing your prisons to become "gladiator schools," the way they are in California is not acceptable for a civilized society, and is counterproductive, because when they get out, a previously non-violent offender has become a person who is no longer fit for society.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 8:49:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 8:51:12 AM EDT by legalese77]
it's clear to me that the folks here who think prisoners are coddled have never spent a day in prison. I'm guessing that they also haven't spent a couple of nights+ in say, cook co. IL, shelby co. TN or LA co CA jails. Jail and prison are not a picnic (most places) The worst thing is that many people are there for the violation of stupid/incomprehensible/unfair laws or are innocent to begin with. While death is certainly the appropriate punishment/remedy for some offenders...the difficulty is that we convict ridiculous numbers of innocent people. IL recently found a number of people on death row that were innocent (something like 9)...imagine how many people were/are going to be executed that weren't guilty of what they were convicted of... Furthermore, I think it is pretty well established that the majority of offenders in prison are not there for the comission of violent crimes. Of course you also are aware that certain crimes, although the act itself may not be all that serious, are treated the same as more heinous acts. selling lookalike drugs for instance. Try this one on, a guy, pissed at his wife is being blocked from leaving the house by her...he shoves past her (doesn't punch, stab, kick, knock down)...he just wants out...convicted of domestic battery...goodbye guns, hello record....this guy gets essentially the same result as the puke who beats the crap out of his wife mercilessly... the bottom line is that when you ask for tougher prisons, more convictions, more laws, etc. you ignore the oppressive realities of the criminal "justice system" edited for typos
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 8:59:35 AM EDT
Becuzzzzzzz! There are too many lawyers (and criminals who have nothing better to do than spend hours looking through the prison law libraries!) to come up with lawsuits to take in front of Liberal Judges so they can win more "privledges"(I think inmates give up all but basic human rights when they decide to attack society instead of being part of it!). As far as I'm concerned, They have a right to religeon,food, water, shelter, medical care and to not be tortured! That's all. as Far as 24 hour cell time, before the 20th century that is what you got, and it didn't seem to be cruel and unusual then, so why is it Now?
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 9:15:32 AM EDT
Because we have too many p*ssies running this coutry. P*ssies feel sorry for the mental anguish prisoners fell when locked up so they try to make p*ssy feel better by making life in prison easier to ease the suffering. Prisons should be a 6x8 concrete block cell that the you are locked in until your release. A sleeping mat, sheet, pillow, and normal toiletries will be provided. A Barber comes once a month to shave your head. Your toilet is a hole in the floor (Orient style). No books, magaizines, tvs, radios, not anything. No clubs or mingling of the imate population should be permitted. No fresh air breaks, no exercise periods, and meals are delievered through the bars of the cell. Family members can visit upon appointment but can not drop off anything. Prison should be a painful experience from the isolation and seperation from society. No torture or bad attitudes from the guards. No beatings, caning, beheadings, behanding, or other cruel punishment.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 9:17:04 AM EDT
The biggest problem with the prison system is the huge cost of operating them. Large number of guards @ $50K per year to handle prisoners who are allowed to run around to mess halls, libraries, showers, exercise areas, laundry, visiting areas, medical area, etc. Keep them locked in a cage for 24/7/365 and the cost can be dramatically reduced. Force the prisoner's families to pay for their food and clothing like the Japanese do too.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 9:21:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By legalese77: it's clear to me that the folks here who think prisoners are coddled have never spent a day in prison.
View Quote
You're right, I've never spent a day in prison, as a prisoner anyway.
I'm guessing that they also haven't spent a couple of nights+ in say, cook co. IL, shelby co. TN or LA co CA jails. Jail and prison are not a picnic (most places) The worst thing is that many people are there for the violation of stupid/incomprehensible/unfair laws or are innocent to begin with.
View Quote
Well then, why aren't you out crusading about getting innocent people released from prison instead of arguing about making prison life easier to protect the innocents that are incarcerated? That's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't it?
While death is certainly the appropriate punishment/remedy for some offenders...the difficulty is that we convict ridiculous numbers of innocent people. IL recently found a number of people on death row that were innocent (something like 9)...imagine how many people were/are going to be executed that weren't guilty of what they were convicted of...
View Quote
That sounds like a court problem to me. I've never heard of anyone being brought to trial to be judged and convicted by a jail/prison.
Furthermore, I think it is pretty well established that the majority of offenders in prison are not there for the comission of violent crimes. Of course you also are aware that certain crimes, although the act itself may not be all that serious, are treated the same as more heinous acts. selling lookalike drugs for instance. Try this one on, a guy, pissed at his wife is being blocked from leaving the house by her...he shoves past her (doesn't punch, stab, kick, knock down)...he just wants out...convicted of domestic battery...goodbye guns, hello record....this guy gets essentially the same result as the puke who beats the crap out of his wife mercilessly...
View Quote
Again, jails/prisons have no influence on the laws. They are only there to punish the guilty. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
the bottom line is that when you ask for tougher prisons, more convictions, more laws, etc. you ignore the oppressive realities of the criminal "justice system"
View Quote
Isn't the whole point to have an oppressive criminal justice system? So that the criminals can be oppressed. Is it even possible to have a criminal justice system without being oppressive? It sounds to me like you've misplaced your arguement from the court system to the prison system.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 9:23:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 9:29:55 AM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:01:59 AM EDT
As someone who deals with inmates who violate parole and inmates who are CONSTANTLY suing under 1983 violations, I know that we treat inmates TOO well. If they want to sue to get a special dinner, they get it. If they want to sue for a guard "harrassing" them, then they get money. Prison is no longer prison, its a place where liberals put them for a couple years so the public doesn't turn against them and their party. If a lib had their choice, they'd have three course meals in prison and the prisoners could come and go as they please. We've given way too many rights to prisoners and have allowed way too many lawsuits against the CO's who protect us from these felons. Fuck their rights, they gave them up when the judge read the sentence.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:15:28 AM EDT
I have the unpopular view on all this. I think they should offer High School and College education in prison for _free_ to any person who has less than 20 years of time left to serve and is under 40 years of age. The recidivism rate for educated ex-cons is something like a 1/4 of non-educated ex-cons, plus they can find a bunch of stupid liberals who will teach these monkeys for free or very cheap. Ya, your going to hate it since they did something really bad and now they get a free education, but we have to look at the long term. We're not going to keep all of them forever, but atleast make it so they can get a job when they get out and not knock me over the head for my money. I don't think we should execute people since it costs so much money, it's cheaper to put them into prison until they die. California is a good example of this.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:17:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Originally Posted By Redmanfms: And what if you get sent to prison? Plenty of people have been falsely convicted. Plenty of people get busted for stuff they didn't even know was illegal.
View Quote
Was it Andrew Jackson who said that it was better to let a 1,000 guilty men go free than to convict one innocent? Something like that?
View Quote
Chief Wiggum said "I'd rather let a 1,000 guilty men go free, than chase one." Scott [:D]
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:20:51 AM EDT
Why coddle prisoners?........cause if you don`t.....you`ll be in deep shit with the PLS.....that means you might become ONE OF THEM...........[peep]
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:26:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 10:28:54 AM EDT by DScottHewitt]
Originally Posted By Striker: As some one who has seen and had to deal with (cell extractions) inmates who are locked up 23 hours a day I can tell you unless they request to be locked in seg..most can't handle it and it does nothing but make them more violent. You can't leave them in there forever. Eventually you will have to unlock that cell door. That is when people get hurt. You have to remember..when an inmate turns violent or tries to commit suicide..someone has to deal with it. The 2 biggest things that an inmate needs to make it when he gets out are..break his addiction to drugs or alcohol and education or a skill. The first is almost impossible because being stoned or drunk helps them cope. The other..he will only get if he wants it. If you release him in the same condition he was locked up in..he will be back. Except this time the robber you let out..could come back a killer. Inmates can only be rehabilitated if they want to be. The punks who think doing time is a badge of honor. They are doing life on the installment plan. Nothing you can do will change them. You have to remember that there are more people in prisons then just prisoners. These people have to work and survive in there. It is a difficult balance to maintain between making inmates pay their debt to society and giving them so many privileges that the deterrent for committing crimes is lost. To far one way and things will get violent, to far the other and things will get violent too. 1 thing I think should happen is anyone convicted of a second crime..gets no parole. They do the entire sentence. As for the comment about locking them up 24/7/365 saving money. The exact opposite is true. I've seen the millions of dollars in destruction that inmates can do when they riot. Just because they are locked in their cells,doesn't mean they will stay there. When inmates riot..innocent people can and have died. It is stressful enough working there as it is. Lock downs triple that stress. I wouldn't want to imagine working where they are locked in 24/7.
View Quote
Okay. But a few things. All the damage they do will be to [b]THE PLACE THEY LIVE[/b]. Repair it for the next guy. [b]NOT THEM[/b]. Open the door twice. Once to put them in. Once to let them out or remove their body. One meal a day. With the prisoner's family paying for it. No healthcare. Only the toiletries their family provides. If mom and dad doesn't care if little Jimmy Jackoff brushes his teeth, doesn't make a damn to me. If they are violent when they get released, they will wither be coming back to a cement box, or some law-abiding citizen or LEO will put them in a wood one..... Scott
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:39:19 AM EDT
Amazing how so many here are seemingly so interested in the 2nd amendment, but care nothing for the 8th:
Article VIII. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
View Quote
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:44:25 AM EDT
Anybody from the Htown area remember that Channel 13 new feature from a few years ago where the guards did a suprise raid on a holding cell? They came in with dogs and sticks. Anybody that resisted got hit or bit. They showed this one guy rolling around on the floor wrestling with the dog. Dog had groin (or close to it in mouth) and was having a blast. They should show that film to every high school student. That is what I call "incentive" to stay out of trouble. BTW, the feature was an expose on how prisoners were being brutalized.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 10:44:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Amazing how so many here are seemingly so interested in the 2nd amendment, but care nothing for the 8th:
Article VIII. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
View Quote
View Quote
As said before, solitary confinement for all prisoners was not considered cruel and unusual one hundred years ago. Maybe I am too extreme. But what would you do to improve the punishment/deterrent factor of prisons? Bouncebacks are signs of failure. How do we make criminals [b]NOT[/b] bounceback? Scott
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 11:08:45 AM EDT
Well, if in regards to the institutionalization of prisoners you don't want to look like the Taliban, I'd say there are alot of people like Striker here who have a lot of knowledge about these things. We should listen to them. If your basic question is, "why do criminals act like criminals" the answer is they just do. Punishments of almost any sort are unlikely to change that. It's a terrible way to change behavior. And if what you want is revenge, then see my comment above re: "Taliban". As someone above said, drug treatment, education, and true rehabilitation does go a long way to help people break the cycle of recidivism. For the career criminals, all yo can do is lock 'em up, then let them out when their sentence is done, and have a strong LE presence on the outside.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 3:09:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 3:11:17 PM EDT by legalese77]
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: You're right, I've never spent a day in prison, as a prisoner anyway.
View Quote
Not having spent (apparently) even one 24 hour day behind bars, you are speaking, then, from a rather limited point of view to say the least.
Well then, why aren't you out crusading about getting innocent people released from prison instead of arguing about making prison life easier to protect the innocents that are incarcerated? That's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't it?
View Quote
1) how do you know I don't take time out of... oh... say.... making a living, to get innocent people released from prison? I have and do. I think that raising awareness is part of that although certainly not the end all be all. 2) I don't recall arguing at any point that prison life should be easier- But now that you have raised the issue, I do believe that if the state is going to incarcerate you, it has a duty to protect you from certain things such as malnutrition, rape, attacks from other prisoners and guards.
That sounds like a court problem to me. I've never heard of anyone being brought to trial to be judged and convicted by a jail/prison.
View Quote
While it is certainly a court problem, you can't simply separate the two concepts as if one has nothing to do with the other. Such an approach ignores the realities of the system. The assumption that everyone locked up deserves to be there and therefore should be treated worse than most people treat animals is a misguided, wrongheaded stance which turns a blind eye to the problems of the criminal justice system of which both the courts and prisons are integral.
Again, jails/prisons have no influence on the laws. They are only there to punish the guilty. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
View Quote
This is too vague for me to give a response that I can be certain will be responsive- however I will try. While jails/prisons do not make the laws, legislators and judges (via case law) do, it is untrue that there is no connection. If someone commits a felony or serious misdemeanor (which doesn't take much) they can be senteced to jail/prison. Fundamental concepts of fairness requires that punishments are commensurate with the acts. Perhaps a strict muslim might believe that chopping off a hand is fair punishment for stealing...maybe he would be right... I would disagree...I would suggest that it is a whole lot easier than some people think to find yourself on the wrong side of a prison/jail door and that if most people knew how easy it was they might feel a little bit different about treating prisoners like expendable pack animals.
Isn't the whole point to have an oppressive criminal justice system? So that the criminals can be oppressed. Is it even possible to have a criminal justice system without being oppressive?
View Quote
Oppressive justice system? Yes, I think it's possible but sometimes I wonder. The top two definitions in merriam-webster for this word are as follows: 1 : unreasonably burdensome or severe 2 : TYRANNICAL While jail/prison might, of necessity, be an oppressive environment the criminal justice system, IMHO should be EQUITABLE above all else....that system includes LE, the court system and modes of punishment/rehabilitation. The third definition given is: 3 : overwhelming or depressing to the spirit or senses While arguably jail/prison should fit definition 3, the system as a whole should not be oppressive...that would be characteristic of a slew of despicable totalitarian regimes. In any case, while jail should not be fun (or else why worry about it?), it also should not be designed in such a manner as to mentally torture prisoners.
It sounds to me like you've misplaced your arguement from the court system to the prison system.
View Quote
One can not even begin to separate these two sytems. The two are inextricably linked. The thrust of my post is that before you decide to burn prisoners alive and physically abuse and neglect them or torture them, you ought to think twice about how those people get there. The argument that people in prison should be treated poorly, etc. presupposes that those people all belong there and furthermore that they did something horrendous enough to warrant mistreatment in addition to punishment. Simply making prison conditions worse serves what purpose? It doesn't solve the systemic problems...obviously... so what purpose does it serve? sadistic entertainment for some people? I dunno. edited to fix quote problems
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 3:18:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Originally Posted By Redmanfms: And what if you get sent to prison? Plenty of people have been falsely convicted. Plenty of people get busted for stuff they didn't even know was illegal.
View Quote
Was it Andrew Jackson who said that it was better to let a 1,000 guilty men go free than to convict one innocent? Something like that?
View Quote
While Jackson may have said this (I have no idea) I believe the person originally credited with this phrase dates back much farther (Voltaire). This oft forgotten phrase is the foundation of "due process" or as many people who think all "criminals" are dirtbags like to call it, "a loophole."
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 4:08:50 PM EDT
[b]Idle hands are the devils tool.[/b] I see a potential endless stream of cheap labor. chain em up and send them the fields. If illegals can pick produce for next to nothing then inmates can do the same for even less. [size=4] BRING BACK THE CHAIN GANGS [/SIZE=4]
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 5:08:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By legalese77:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: You're right, I've never spent a day in prison, as a prisoner anyway.
View Quote
Not having spent (apparently) even one 24 hour day behind bars, you are speaking, then, from a rather limited point of view to say the least.
View Quote
I said as a prisoner. During my college studies I've spent quite a few hours studying prisons and prisoners. If you'd like to call my point of view limited, then so be it, but the only way to unlimit you're point of view by your standards would to be get thrown in prison.
Well then, why aren't you out crusading about getting innocent people released from prison instead of arguing about making prison life easier to protect the innocents that are incarcerated? That's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't it?
View Quote
1) how do you know I don't take time out of... oh... say.... making a living, to get innocent people released from prison? I have and do. I think that raising awareness is part of that although certainly not the end all be all.
View Quote
I understand that "innocent" people are in jail. Though many times "innocent" means merely of the crime which they were convicted, not their state of being.
2) I don't recall arguing at any point that prison life should be easier- But now that you have raised the issue, I do believe that if the state is going to incarcerate you, it has a duty to protect you from certain things such as malnutrition, rape, attacks from other prisoners and guards.
View Quote
I agree that you deserve, let me restate that, have the right to be safe and well nourished while in prison, but that is about the extent of it. You don't have the right to a higher education. You don't have the right to every TV channel. You don't have the right to sit around and do nothing to raise money for the system that supports you. You don't even have the right to like the food that you're fed, only that it's edible and nutritional.
That sounds like a court problem to me. I've never heard of anyone being brought to trial to be judged and convicted by a jail/prison.
View Quote
While it is certainly a court problem, you can't simply separate the two concepts as if one has nothing to do with the other. Such an approach ignores the realities of the system. The assumption that everyone locked up deserves to be there and therefore should be treated worse than most people treat animals is a misguided, wrongheaded stance which turns a blind eye to the problems of the criminal justice system of which both the courts and prisons are integral.
View Quote
You certainly can seperate the two concepts. You've already done it above. Obviously prison could care less if you're guilty or innocent since everyone there is the same. It's the duty of the courts to sort that out. You can't reasonably expect the prison system to decide how each individual prisoner gets to be treated. The court and prison systems are mutually exclusive.
Again, jails/prisons have no influence on the laws. They are only there to punish the guilty. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
View Quote
This is too vague for me to give a response that I can be certain will be responsive- however I will try. While jails/prisons do not make the laws, legislators and judges (via case law) do, it is untrue that there is no connection. If someone commits a felony or serious misdemeanor (which doesn't take much) they can be senteced to jail/prison. Fundamental concepts of fairness requires that punishments are commensurate with the acts.
View Quote
Which are spelled out in the laws which have nothing to do with prisons. Prison is merely the punishment phase of your crime. 1. You commit a crime 2. You are found guilty by the courts and a punishment is decided. 3. You are sent to prison to complete your punishment.
Perhaps a strict muslim might believe that chopping off a hand is fair punishment for stealing...maybe he would be right... I would disagree...
View Quote
So do our courts, as cruel and unusual punishment which you know. When I say we shouldn't coddle prisoners I don't mean that we should start chopping their hands off.
I would suggest that it is a whole lot easier than some people think to find yourself on the wrong side of a prison/jail door and that if most people knew how easy it was they might feel a little bit different about treating prisoners like expendable pack animals.
View Quote
I understand, and no I don't feel any different. They are sent to prison to be punished and that is what should happen to them and it should be harsh and no part of it should be fun. If you're sentenced to 5 years then you should be miserable for the next 5 years of your life.
Isn't the whole point to have an oppressive criminal justice system? So that the criminals can be oppressed. Is it even possible to have a criminal justice system without being oppressive?
View Quote
Oppressive justice system? Yes, I think it's possible but sometimes I wonder. The top two definitions in merriam-webster for this word are as follows: 1 : unreasonably burdensome or severe 2 : TYRANNICAL While jail/prison might, of necessity, be an oppressive environment the criminal justice system, IMHO should be EQUITABLE above all else....that system includes LE, the court system and modes of punishment/[red]rehabilitation[/red].
View Quote
I gottcha right here. You're one of the rehabilitation types. I disagree that prison is for rehabilitation completely. Prison is for punishement for committing a crime. AA is for rehabilitation, prison is for punishement.
The third definition given is: 3 : overwhelming or depressing to the spirit or senses While arguably jail/prison should fit definition 3, the system as a whole should not be oppressive...that would be characteristic of a slew of despicable totalitarian regimes. In any case, while jail should not be fun (or else why worry about it?), it also should not be designed in such a manner as to mentally torture prisoners.
View Quote
As long as the sentences are laid out and the rules of prison are up front and agreed by the populace to not be unreasonable, then mental torture is out of the picture. What might seem like torture to me might be nothing to you. Working hard everyday might be torture for a Dr that's had soft hands his whole life. Torture is a relative term. Prison should be prison, if some call it torture then so be it.
It sounds to me like you've misplaced your arguement from the court system to the prison system.
View Quote
One can not even begin to separate these two sytems. The two are inextricably linked. The thrust of my post is that before you decide to [red]burn prisoners alive and physically abuse and neglect them or torture them[/red], you ought to think twice about how those people get there. The argument that people in prison should be treated poorly, etc. presupposes that those people all belong there and furthermore that they did something horrendous enough to warrant [red]mistreatment[/red] in addition to punishment. Simply making prison conditions worse serves what purpose? It doesn't solve the systemic problems...obviously... so what purpose does it serve? sadistic entertainment for some people? I dunno.
View Quote
Where did I say anything about abusing or mistreating prisoners? I only that that prison should be made a miserable experience. If you associate miserable with mistreatment then that is where we're disagreeing. If you mean by abusing as in being worked until you can't physically work anymore, then that's what I mean. Prisoners shouldn't be beaten, but they should hate life. They should hate every single second that they are in jail. That's the whole point.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 5:54:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 7:11:09 PM EDT
Even the best prison on earth is still prison, in America they may be nicer than the Sudan but that is all relative. They are shitty compared with living free in America. Let them have cable if they want too,,just keep them inside until they don"t run off with my damned TV every chance they get.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 7:42:12 PM EDT
i have a problem with prisoners going to college for free. because im paying back a 40,000 loan for when i went, and you telling me a prisoner shouldn't have to pay? i should be punished for being a nice guy? give me a break already!
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 9:58:31 PM EDT
striker: I suppose that was an unfortunate choice of words... but the fact of the matter is that some prison guards get a kick out of abusing inmates when they can. It happens at the local Max prison and I bet it happense elsewhere. It is only proper that the design of the system build in safeguards against that behavior to the most feasible extent. now on to other issues:
I said as a prisoner. During my college studies I've spent quite a few hours studying prisons and prisoners. If you'd like to call my point of view limited, then so be it, but the only way to unlimit you're point of view by your standards would to be get thrown in prison.
View Quote
well, I did say 24hrs behind bars.. and maybe you did that, though not as a prisoner... and yea, you're right, I'm suggesting that until you are a prisoner you can't possibly know what it is like. Of course, I'm not suggesting that it would be good for you to get tossed in prison...just enlightening.
I understand that "innocent" people are in jail. Though many times "innocent" means merely of the crime which they were convicted, not their state of being.
View Quote
Not quite sure what you're getting at here...sounds like you mean in some moral or philosophical sense, which of course is irrelevant for the purposes of the American justice system. If instead you mean they are probably guilty of some other crime they didn't get convicted of for whatever reason...that too is technically irrelevant although it may in some sense be just.
I agree that you deserve, let me restate that, have the right to be safe and well nourished while in prison, but that is about the extent of it. You don't have the right to a higher education. You don't have the right to every TV channel. You don't have the right to sit around and do nothing to raise money for the system that supports you. You don't even have the right to like the food that you're fed, only that it's edible and nutritional.
View Quote
While I agree with this for the most part, I'm certainly not against providing the means for prisoners to obtain an education...not particularly fond of the idea that they wouldn't have to pay for it one way or another. If you imprison people and don't give them an opportunity to better themselves during their time (as long as they make the effort and foot the bill one way or another) then you will end up with a guy who is certainly no better than when he went to prison and in all likelihood much worse off (stigma of a prison record, doesn't have decent education, job training, etc.).
You certainly can seperate the two concepts. You've already done it above. Obviously prison could care less if you're guilty or innocent since everyone there is the same. It's the duty of the courts to sort that out. You can't reasonably expect the prison system to decide how each individual prisoner gets to be treated.
View Quote
Well we obviously won't agree on this. No it's probably not feasible for prisons to tailor the actual conditions of prison to fit the crime. That's why one shouldn't be so quick to suggest that the harsher the treatment/conditons, etc. are, the better. This has been my main point consistently.
I gottcha right here. You're one of the rehabilitation types. I disagree that prison is for rehabilitation completely. Prison is for punishement for committing a crime. AA is for rehabilitation, prison is for punishement.
View Quote
Not sure what you mean by "rehabilitation types" I would also agree that prison is not for rehabilitation entirely... recidivism rates show that if it was, it would be doing a lousy job. I would also point out that that I never alleged that was the case. Some folks can clearly never be rehabilitated. Prison conditions are not exactly the most conducive to rehabilitation either. The main role of prisons in the current system is overwhelmingly punishment. There is no question, however, that prisons have historically been, and are currently supposed to effect rehabilitation as well. For example, current sex offender statutes allowing people to be "civilly" committed for an indefinite period of time (in a prison, not mental health ward) are premised on the idea that they will be released when they are "well" enough. Furthermore, the State is required to actively provide services (shrinks, essentially) to facilitate rehabilitation. Under any other circumstances, the SCOTUS would strike the scheme down as unconstitutional... I would be glad to cite you a slew of cases as I am currently prepping a brief for the Supreme Court of IL on related issues.
Where did I say anything about abusing or mistreating prisoners? I only that that prison should be made a miserable experience. If you associate miserable with mistreatment then that is where we're disagreeing. If you mean by abusing as in being worked until you can't physically work anymore, then that's what I mean. Prisoners shouldn't be beaten, but they should hate life. They should hate every single second that they are in jail. That's the whole point.
View Quote
Discussing this would be a waste of time because there are so many ways and thin lines that can be crossed in discussing the differences between abuse/mistreatment and punishment. On the other hand, if you are going to err, I think it's better to err on the side of caution... although you maintain that the court system has nothing to do with the prison system (although you can't ordinarily be sent to prison without due process which involves the courts and courts are called on to review the constitutioanlity of prison conditions and are also bound by crime classifications and sentencing guidelines), the court system makes mistakes and so erring on the side of caution seems the best way not to exacerbate an injustice. While we could argue this all day, here are a few suggestion that I think go too far...
Death penalty? 1) Strip them nekkid 2) Strap them to a steel table 3) Pour on one litre of gasoline 4) Strike a match 5) Light criminal 6) Come back in a week to dispose of body
View Quote
you've got health problems? Tough shit, you should keep your nose clean.
View Quote
Also, for violent felonies, it's an automatic 50 year sentence. Let's see how much trouble you cause when you get out and you're 75 there bud
View Quote
This last one troubles me quite a bit b/c, assuming arguendo, that you CAN treat the court and prison system as two unrelated entities, this suggestion has nothing to do with the prison. It is the courts that must abide by sentencing...last I checked, I had not heard that any warden nor guard was responsible for sentencing. These three things are those that disturbed me most as suggestions. I think that ignoring the health needs of prisoners is abuse. I think that burning people alive, even ones that probably deserve it, is HIGHLY Unconstitutional...and I'm no psychiatrist and don't really care much for pyschobabble but if someone told me that 24/7 lockdown w/o windows would be not only cruel but drive most individuals to insanity, I would probably believe it. I don't think that rudimentary health care and some windows constitutes coddling, particularly when some folks got into prison because they got a raw deal, not because they deserved it(maybe less than 1% but still unacceptable numbers IMO).
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 11:30:31 PM EDT
Who lives in a state that does not have parole? In Virginia, you serve your time. All of your time..... Scott
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 1:46:52 AM EDT
I only skimmed this thread, but some of you guys are sick f***s. I don't believe in coddling prisoners, hell, you did the crime, time to pay. But 24 hour lock downs in underground cells? How many innocent people or guys who's crime is having a couple ounces of pot on them are you willing to do this to? The former is one of the major reasons I'm against the death penalty. I'm also curious as to how many of our resident Bible thumpers are of this opinion.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 3:07:34 AM EDT
Over 70% of all prisoners in the US are there for non-violent offenses because of the "War On Drugs"............ Wait 'til the "War On Terror" really gets rolling. Perhaps some of the posters here will find out what prison is like......
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 8:37:10 AM EDT
indeed
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 3:19:37 PM EDT
Guards don't protect prisoners from getting beaten, raped, and abused. Their job is to keep them inside the walls. Prison is not a nice place. It isn't supposed to be nice, but it isn't supposed to be so bad that it warps the prisoners mind either. Try spending 24 hours in a room with nothing to do, and nobody to talk to, and see how you feel when you come out. The idea behind prison seems to be to take a away someones freedom, not their sanity.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 6:47:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 7:24:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By joker581: Guards don't protect prisoners from getting beaten, raped, and abused. Their job is to keep them inside the walls. Prison is not a nice place. It isn't supposed to be nice, but it isn't supposed to be so bad that it warps the prisoners mind either. Try spending 24 hours in a room with nothing to do, and nobody to talk to, and see how you feel when you come out. The idea behind prison seems to be to take a away someones freedom, not their sanity.
View Quote
Once a prisoner is in your custody it is your responsibility to ensure his safety. This is true for street officers as well as Correctional officers. What do you think Correctional Officers do all day, sit back and watch the prioners fight and then get a few kicks in too? You have been watching that Stalone prison movie too much.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 7:28:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Over 70% of all prisoners in the US are there for non-violent offenses because of the "War On Drugs"............ .....
View Quote
Where do you get this from? Interesting, 70% are non-violent? Hell they should just be turning themselves in then. That's not the way I see it on the street or inside prison. If drug dealers are killing each other is that non-violent?
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 8:41:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt:
Originally Posted By DScott: Amazing how so many here are seemingly so interested in the 2nd amendment, but care nothing for the 8th:
Article VIII. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
View Quote
View Quote
As said before, solitary confinement for all prisoners was not considered cruel and unusual one hundred years ago. Maybe I am too extreme. But what would you do to improve the punishment/deterrent factor of prisons? Bouncebacks are signs of failure. How do we make criminals [b]NOT[/b] bounceback? Scott
View Quote
The term is recidivism. Excessive, cruel, and unusual punishment NEVER worked anywhere in America it has been tried. The Pennsylvania system of forced solitude and silence actually created a problem in that criminals would kill people they were robbing to keep from going back to prison. I don't support the mollycoddling of prisoners, but it is blatantly obvious most of the men (?) posting on this forum don't know a damned thing about prison operation. I've interned in prisons and jails as a part of my law enforcement certifications, and I've been certified in prison/jail administration. I've seen first hand the difference between a well-run (meaning the prisoners are treated as human beings, but not given undue influence) and a poorly-run facility (where even the guards live in fear). Anybody who has spent more than two hours in a prison quickly learns that pissing of the prisoners results in some very bad things. If they are treated reasonably well (meaning they aren't tortured, like some of you morons seem to think is appropriate) they won't create problems on the inside, and are far less likely to recidivate. It takes a whole helluva lot to make prisoners riot, so when they do you know something is very wrong. The TVs, work crews, schools, yard time, etc. are usually used as rewards, ergo, you be good boy, we give you cookie. That isn't coddling prisoners, that's basic behavior modification. Positive reinforcement is a lot more effective at getting people to do what you want them to do than is positive punishment (you beat people for not following rules). This has nothing to do with liberal/conservative, this has to do with using your brains. Liberals base their values on pure emotion, and it becoming apparent that quite a few of you do as well. Turning otherwise non-violent criminals into animals isn't a very good thing. The vast majority of criminals in prison right now aren't inside because of violent crime, they are in for drug and property offenses. Why would you want those people to be so terrified of prison that they will murder witnesses to keep from going back? We already know that harsh punishment doesn't prevent recidivism, and we do know it causes increases in violent criminal behavior. You people just don't know of what you speak, and instead of learning something you use your emotions to make decisions for you. For Balzac: Prisoners have the right to access legal libraries, and pass their otherwise unoccupied time suing for utterly ridiculous things. It sucks, but they still have rights.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 8:54:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: Who lives in a state that does not have parole? In Virginia, you serve your time. All of your time..... Scott
View Quote
Actually, that's not entirely true. They serve between 85% and 100% of their sentences.
Originally Posted by luger355: Idle hands are the devils tool. I see a potential endless stream of cheap labor. chain em up and send them the fields. If illegals can pick produce for next to nothing then inmates can do the same for even less. BRING BACK THE CHAIN GANGS
View Quote
Virginia has them. They don't still chain the prisoners together, but they do take them out to do road clean-up and ditch clearing. It is actually used as a reward and is normally only given to prsioners at the end of their sentence or to low-end felons (only serving a couple years). The chain gangs you are probably thinking of had a number of problems: 1. Used to compete with free labor in a number of industries. 2. Was incredibly harsh. Most prisoners wouldn't survive a 10-year sentence. While that may be acceptable to some of the knuckleheads on this thread, think about the BATF and their willingness to selectively reinterpret gun laws on a near daily basis. 3. Recidivism rates during the peak usage (first 50 or so years of the 20th century) of prison gang labor skyrocketed.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 4:45:41 PM EDT
LE6920, Not sure which prison movie you are talking about. My knowledge of it is limited to one facility, for a period of 32 days in June-July of 1998. I did some stupid things and spent that time as a guest of the Georgia Department of Juvinile Justice. I don't recall seeing any fights actually being broken up, and I didn't see guards do anything but watch T.V. and unlock the cells for meals, showers, and laundry details. Im sorry if I offended you, but obviously things aren't the same all over.
Top Top