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Posted: 11/24/2002 5:44:25 PM EDT
Just wondering what some of yalls opinions are on having a good bolt gun as your only SHTF long gun. Right now I have no $$ for a new gun right now I would say my Remington M7 .223 is mine....any comments?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 5:50:09 PM EDT
To someone skilled in its use anyhting is possible. I would have no worries if thats all I had
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 5:51:15 PM EDT
A bolt gun should be fine as long as you keep yourself out of hairy situations. Just ask yourself if you feel more comfortable with only putting 5-6 rnd down range in 30 secs, or if you'd like to put 30 rnds downrange in 10 secs? Just preference I guess. Tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind a competant Bolt-Man covering me during a Bounding-Overwatch.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 5:58:14 PM EDT
Sure thing! [b]A bolt gun will likely get you your first full auto weapon![/b] Remember the Hun's SHTF motto: [size=4]Don't worry if you don't have a full auto weapon on Day One of the Revolution - you [u]will[/u] have one on Day Two![/size=4] Eric The(VoidWhereProhibitedByLaw)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:01:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:03:04 PM EDT
Yup, a bolt gun will work. "Sniper work"
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:05:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 6:06:23 PM EDT by VTHOKIESHOOTER]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Sure thing! [b]A bolt gun will likely get you your first full auto weapon![/b] Remember the Hun's SHTF motto: [size=4]Don't worry if you don't have a full auto weapon on Day One of the Revolution - you [u]will[/u] have one on Day Two![/size=4] Eric The(VoidWhereProhibitedByLaw)Hun[>]:)]
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Good point!!! Not that I prefer a bolt gun....I love them all but I would give my left nut for an AR or FAL just don't have the $$$ and can never seem to save up enough .......if I can just get this damn credit card paid off I would be in business I am quite effective with the little M7 though.....
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:07:11 PM EDT
Sure it is. Just know your limits and don't try to take on a rifle platoon with one, unless you plan on shootin & scootin. Because a Platoon doesn't go anywhere without a Company, and a Company doesn't go anywhere without a Battalion, and normally the smallest maneuver force is a Regiment, which means a shitload of folks with crew serves and indirect weapons will be in your AO. It would be more profitable to take out a single truck on a twisty road and use one or two bullets to gain many. If we are talking civilian heathens, then average way down from what I posted above. They will have less firepower, but will be exponentially far less predictable. Have a groovy day
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:26:18 PM EDT
Hell yes, a bolt gun is a fine gun for SHTF. Check out Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle concept. I had the opportunity to shoot another board members lightweight .223 bolt gun with a low power scope mounted on it. Very quick to acquire the target, and very accurate. Take the Model 7 and put a low (1 or 1.5 to 4x) power variable scope on it. A "scout" style scope mounted well forward is great, especially on low power, as you can scan with both eyes and instinctively focus on the crosshairs when you stop. I'd prefer a .308 rifle, but the .223 will do fine if that is what you have.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:39:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:40:09 PM EDT
My deer gun is a rem 700 .243 win with a 3x9x50mm with practice any good bolt gun can be used proficently and still be very fast on to the target. The thing you have to remember you only have 5 in the gun and need to make every one count especially if shooting at a fast moving deer or coyote. I would stick with the 308 class guns, 243 7mm-08, 308 ect..... they have a short action and most will handle medium sized game at moderate ranges depending on your calibre. My 243 has dropped deer out to 300yds with one well placed shot. I would not shoot much beyond that and I personally like them up a little closer than that.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:42:38 PM EDT
Like so. [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QQDXAmYS20CdQwmWD!oqYrvMXBif0OvtzEIL*MyPl29m­8lg0gvV1EbQ6AeF4dwrmkBiT54y!23LN4lxGgB3k4qiMw­aW4FXcWYYVmYiC7Pzs/DCP_0001.jpg?dc=4675328837685268632[/img]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:54:14 PM EDT
Why not buy an inexpensive CETME or FAL? Both can be found under $400. But to answer your question, yes, a bolt gun can be an excellent SHTF gun. Mainly because it will mean you'll preserve ammo and only take legit shots. Additionally, you'll be more likely to be LESS brazen and survive into day 2. Thinking you're a badass with an AR15 and running into trouble will get you deader faster than taking planned shots with your M7. For me, however, I'll use my AR like I would use a bolt action and I'll outlive both camps! When it gets hairy, I turn up the flow! Even better yet would be your M7 and a pistol or two.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 6:58:44 PM EDT
Beware the man who only has one gun, chances are, he knows how to use it. TXLEWIS
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:05:38 PM EDT
[url]http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/opforstuff/goodstuff/onepistol.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:11:03 PM EDT
A bolt gun is better than no gun. If I had nothing else, my Lee-Enfields, (SMLEs and MkVs [Jungle Carbine]) would be the way to go for me- 10 rd mag, great sights, smooooth action, easy to maintain, easy to fix. And a nice, flat trajectory round that makes hamburger out of whatever it hits. "Rule .303!"
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:34:40 PM EDT
I am much more comfortable with my Finn M-39 especially at ranges greater than 100 meters. I lack practise (or something!) with semiauto rifles so I would be tempted to take my M-39. GunLvr
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:37:00 PM EDT
THAT bolt gun would be adequate. Not ALL bolt guns would be perfect, however. Say, a Moison-Nagrant 7.62X54R. Too much power (particullarly in the M1944 Carbine version) but if you hit someone with it, it would hurt. So long as you have a gun... It is a point to consider, less likely to waste ammo with a bolt than with a semi, and after all the AR guys who were a little too gung-ho get capped, you can grab their mags and use their ammo, if not their ARs.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:42:47 PM EDT
Depends on how many you bolt together.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:48:41 PM EDT
A huge part of both World Wars were fought with bolt guns on all sides. I'd say the civil war was a SHTF situation and they didn't even have bolt guns. I like to think that I could make do with whatever I've got available.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:58:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Finnbear: [url]http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/opforstuff/goodstuff/onepistol.htm[/url]
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amen brother.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:04:58 PM EDT
Yeah, a blot gun will work. But come on!! A 5rnd bolt vs any semi-auto rifle will always be won by those with the semi!! PERIOD!!
A huge part of both World Wars were fought with bolt guns on all sides.
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True, however one countries main battle rifle was a 8rnd semi-auto, and that side won the WWII. Sgtar15 So get a SKS for $200
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:09:55 PM EDT
Forget bolt guns or semi-autos..yes I have both of those........give me a good Remmy 760 pump chambered in .308 or .30/06 got access to both and even ones in .243 and 6MM Remmy too. I'll take a pump or lever gun ANY day. That being said ANY gun is better than no gun. CRC
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:13:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Yeah, a blot gun will work. But come on!! A 5rnd bolt vs any semi-auto rifle will always be won by those with the semi!! PERIOD!! Sgtar15 Not if I stand off at 800 yards with my Remmy 700 .300 WIN MAG and put a Sierra Matchking in your skull while you waste your shots with an AR-15. CRC
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:25:07 PM EDT
One thing many people fail to think about is that a SHTF situation isn't exactly the same as fighting WWII. It's awful tough to justify taking casulties to take an objective in a SHTF situation, when you're the only one on your side. There's many reasons that we won WWII, and Bolt vs semi is a VERY small part of that equation. Regardless of what you're armed with, you're probably not going to have the chance to use all the ammo you're carrying. Either win or loose, you'll probably have ammo left in your pocket. Use whatever you have, just know how to use it. Also don't ever think that some specific type of tool will replace skill, training and experience. If you know how to drive a nail, any hammer can be made to work, but the best hammer in the world can't teach you to drive nails. Ross
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:28:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 8:30:05 PM EDT by sgtar15]
True CRC...but what about an Enfiled or a Mauser? Seriously...name 1 country that still uses bolt guns as a main weapon? My point is this; aimed fire isn't always as important as suppressive fire. And at 800 yards you can't see me in a city anyways. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:28:29 PM EDT
Yup, a bolt gun stands up in the closet just as well as its semi-auto counterparts. Since the SHTF is never going to happen, spending less money on a bolt gun makes perfect sense. Now for home defense, you might want something else... Does anyone here actually think there will be a 2nd American Revolution to right the ship? Is this what is being prepared for? Or are you expecting the fall of society and want to defend your one can of food and jug of water during the ensuing chaos?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:33:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Or are you expecting the fall of society and want to defend your one can of food and jug of water during the ensuing chaos?
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Yes...I take my Spam seriously! Sgtar15
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:50:58 PM EDT
I've been thinking lately that a high quality bolt gun may actually serve better than a semi or full auto in that type of situation for several reasons: You can stay farther away, distance is good Your shots will be on target more, saves ammo Its hard to find someone if they only take one shot, keeps you hiden Do you really think you're going to be able to survive a shoot out type engagement against an organized military with huge supplies of ammo?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 9:27:43 PM EDT
To answer the original question whether or not a Bolt Gun would be a good SHTF gun..the answer would be..depends upon the bolt gun that is chosen. Personally I would choose either a Lee Enfield OR a 1917 Enfield. Here is why: The Lee Enfield uses a 10 round detachable magazine, it also has a charger guide milled into the receiver bridge for stripper clips. The No.4 Mk.1 Lee Enfield has a rear peep sight (a small sight for shooting at targets far away and a larger 200 yard Battle Sight). If the head space changes..just screw on a longer bolt head (bolt heads range from 0 - 4: with 4 being the longest). The Enfield is legal in all 50 states. And it is the most RELIABLE and FASTEST Turn Bolt Rifle in the world. (partly due to the location of the bolt handle, the rear bolt lugs and the short throw). Additionally it cocks on closing, so all of your energy goes into extracting the round. Unlike the Mauser 98 and the 1903 Springfield. You can also get a screw on Technic Scope Mount that will attach to the receiver without any gun smithing. The .303 British Mark VIIz surplus ammo is more powerful than the 30-40 Krag and only 10 percent less powerful than the .308. The standard Mark VIIz Ammo has a 174 grain spitzer bullet that has an aluminum insert which causes the bullet's center of gravity to be shifted far to the rear. This causes the bullet to tumble like a buzz saw upon impact with the target, creating very nasty wounds. The 1917 US Enfield while only holding 6 rounds in the internal magazine, has a rear peep sight, a longer sight radius than the Lee Enfield, it is chambered in 30-06 (arguebally the most commonly found hunting ammunition in North America - along with the 30-30). It is also rather accurate. Both rifles are very cheap. You can pick up a Lee Enfield for around $140.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 9:43:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 9:43:37 PM EDT by Zardoz]
To answer the original question whether or not a Bolt Gun would be a good SHTF gun..the answer would be..depends upon the bolt gun that is chosen.
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I have to disagree with this. What it depends on is the person pulling the trigger. It doesn't matter what type of rifle you decide to use, as long as you're good with it, and use it within its' (and your) limitations.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 11:04:18 PM EDT
Sorry, but what sort of 'SHTF' are you talking about... Any thought of a 'revolution' to impart political change in this country is wishful thinking at best. There is one possibility for a successful revolt, and it's the one scenareo we all hope just-can't-happen-here (military takeover). In that scenario, your best chance is to hope that enough soldiers remember that little bit in the oath of office about 'defending the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic' and then we have 'Civil War II'... But that, again, is another 'good action movie plot, and just as plausible as Rambo' scenario... OTOH, in the case of any other plausible situation (riot, disaster, or any forseeable event that could disrupt civil order) your legal engagement range will likely be rather short (see 'use-of-force thread', [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=156151&w=activePop[/url]) so the range advantage will be moot. Of course, depending on the motivation and number of your attackers, simply firing a warning shot may be enough (Oh SH*T, he's got a gun... let's go loot someone else's house)...
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 12:37:07 AM EDT
[b]Dave_A[/b], if you mean in your post that the US Armed Forces could never be defeated by American civilians in a Revolution, you are dead wrong! The costs to both sides would be high, but whatever public support the military had at the outset of the conflict would quickly be lost at the first videos of dead women and children being retrieved from a 'rebel' house! The American people are the most heavily armed folks in the world. Any attempt by the US military to put down such a revolt would be (1) plagued by desertions from their own ranks, with many such deserters bringing their own sophisticated weapons and expertise with them, and (2) a combination of Beirut, Mogadishu, Kabul, Baghdad, Stalingrad, and the Battle of Berlin all rolled up into one very large scenario! The political will to make a 'total war' on American citizens would never make it past the first day. What do you think? Eric The(ArmedToTheTeeth)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 12:50:34 AM EDT
The gun in question really means little. Invest your cash and time/effort in prepared defensive positions with fall back capability. If done properly you can get away with no gun at all. Add a bolt gun to the mix to demoralize troops with accurate and unrelenting sniper action and you could very easily win the day. Just remember a sniper shoots and then moves.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 1:11:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A: Sorry, but what sort of 'SHTF' are you talking about... Any thought of a 'revolution' to impart political change in this country is wishful thinking at best.
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Dave: the SHTF that is talked about here is not a revolution to impart political change, rather a last stand to [b]stop[/b] political change.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:14:46 AM EDT
What weapon you have and how effective it is depends on how you employ the weapon. If you use a bolt-gun, use range and cover as your advantage. If its just you with a bolt gun, try not to piss off anyone with air support or any large elements. The thought on a backup handgun is good. Hopefully, you'll never have to use a handgun in that type of situation - but there is always Murphy's Law. A quality 9mm,.45, etc would be a good idea. If I had to rely on a bolt-action, I would try to max out the range on it plus use high quality match ammo. I'm probably just reiterating the obvious...
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:22:17 AM EDT
What BostonTerrier said. Plus, if you go to the link below and scroll down about half way, you can see me using an Enfield .308 carbine in a carbine tactical competition. I didn't win, but ended up about the middle of the pack. If anyone who was there would like to comment on the bolt gun's effectiveness, feel free. I will say this: I nailed the moving target in the head AND the center mass...just gotta lead 'em! [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=8&t=155211[/url] -White Horse
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:05:28 AM EDT
I think a nice bolt gun makes great sense as a backup and/or friend gun. I would love to pick up a FR8 if I could find a good deal on one.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:33:21 AM EDT
"The costs to both sides would be high, but whatever public support the military had at the outset of the conflict would quickly be lost at the first videos of dead women and children being retrieved from a 'rebel' house!" you mean...like randy weaver's house? or perhaps the branch davidian's house? perhaps the dozens of no-knock raids that occur every year? yup...lots of "lost support" in those incidents.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:37:49 AM EDT
Do not forget the Cowboy Assault Rifle.... the Winchester model 94. I have 3, 30,30, ,357 and 45C. They all shoot great, I do like the 45 though.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 6:10:28 AM EDT
The only likely SHTF scenarios you are liable to encounter are the natural disaster (hurricane Andrew) and the urban riot (LA). In either situation almost any gun will do. The thing is ammo. You don't want to have to conserve ammo. If you live in a major city in downtown, midtown, or close to the hood, and a riot breaks out, if any hostiles appear on your street and you want them gone, only a few shots will be required to convince them to leave. Much like a pack of dogs chasing your livestock, shoot one and the others run. In the event of natural disaster, most people will be too busy trying to secure food, water, and shelter for their wives and kids to do anything else. If you were to spot looters, a few shots would be all that's necesary to either run them off if they are unarmed or down them if they are armed. Of course if you are bloodthirsty and don't want anyone to leave your zone alive or unhit if you can help it, a hi-cap semi would be best. Otherwise, a bolt gun would be OK esp an SMLE in 308 from Ishapore. I have emptied bolt guns at running coyotes pretty fast, so rate of fire can be moot if you are a skilled bolt gun man. Of course I missed shooting like that. The Brits could really put out some fire with SMLE's. At least hurricanes and riots happen in warm weather.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 6:18:45 AM EDT
[b]Rustygun[/b], you are certainly correct about the Enfield's ease of operation. It is said that when the Huns, pardon me, the Germans, first came up against British troops using the Enfield in WWI, they thought they were being fired on by machine guns, the rate of fire of these rifles was so furious! Eric The(Historical)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 6:21:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rustygun: The Brits could really put out some fire with SMLE's.
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Using Mk IVs at the hip, firing with the middle or ring finger, and manipulating the bolt (loading and emptying) with the thumb and ball of the wrist, the British and Canadian soldiers in France and Belgium after D-day got so fast at it, they could empty a magazine (10 rds, plus one "up the spout") within three seconds to clear a room when entering a house. Talk about "bump" firing... [:D]
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 7:00:33 AM EDT
The way the brits taught the soldiers to use the lee enfeilds is still effective on non-lee enfeilds like the rem 700's and similar guns the down side is the speed of reloading and lock up time if your bolt gun has front locking lugs. It is still possible to have the trigger pulled as the bolt closes and the gun will go off, hence the bump firing. One still needs to remember the shtf situations will be probably of natural persuasion and not the second coming of the revolution. Hence the rule is to have a gun and practice regiously with what you have and become good with it, if you can take out a deer or coyote in normal hunting situations you will be all right with that rifle regaurdless of make and modle and calibre. for home defense the bolt gun could work in a pinch but it would still be more advise able to picke another type of weapon. I do agree the Lee enfeild is a good route to pick for a reasonable priced bolt gun although your options for a scope are limited. Just remember to practice, practice, practice......................................
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 12:13:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2002 12:20:24 PM EDT by AR15fan]
I'm with Trick Shot on this one.... Plus you would think people on this board would know better than to recommend using a battle field war trophy as their primary weapon. You are better off with your own proven rifle, zeroed for you, than a random war trophy which may be a jam-o-matic which has never been properly BZO'd. As for the original bolt gun question. You would be screwed in a close range fight vs multiple attackers, such as a typical home invasion robbery.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 12:52:53 PM EDT
My bolt gun would definitely have its place in a SHTF situation along with the rest of the guns. One bolt gun will share the same ammo with the Garand, and thats plentiful. Another bolt gun shares the same ammo as the Match M1A and another bolt gun uses the same match ammo as the AR'S. I would rather put one shot where it does the most damage, that put 10 or more close to eliminating the threat. My .02 cents worth. MM419
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 1:16:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: ...I would give my left nut for an AR or FAL .....
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Alright, lets hear it. [b]Who only has one in the sack?[/b]
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 1:40:01 PM EDT
for a SHTF scenario, a bolt gun would be just fine for reasons already stated. BUT, for a SASQUATCH SHTF scenario, you would be pretty well screwed without at least an FAL or an M1A.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 1:54:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2002 1:56:31 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:05:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rustygun: The only likely SHTF scenarios you are liable to encounter are the natural disaster (hurricane Andrew) and the urban riot (LA).
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What about the Chinese troops massed in Panama? That's definitly a SHTF if they attack us.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:08:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Yeah, a blot gun will work. But come on!! A 5rnd bolt vs any semi-auto rifle will always be won by those with the semi!! PERIOD!!
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Two extremes: Semi Barrett M82 .50 cal. and an SKS. At 800+ yards, a bolt would probably win against the SKS, but doesnt have a chance against a Barrett.
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