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Posted: 11/24/2002 12:04:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 12:31:26 PM EDT by AR15]
Just read in the latest Soldier of Fortune that FN-Herstal is marketing it's M240 and M249 for police agency use. Also in the article is a picture of a police "swat" officer firing a Minimi from the hip. I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which a full auto only, open bolt firing machine gun would be needed by police. What are they going to do, put down covering fire into a drug dealers house while the entry team goes in? If you can make an argument for these, then why not 40mm grenade launchers, or maybe tow missiles?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:20:59 PM EDT
I think I will leave a note for them to find just like Bruce Williis's character did in Die Hard: "Now I have a machinegun. Ha Ha." It ain't gonna happen. Nobody wants to give civilians, and yes you cops are civilians, machineguns for which there is no real use.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:24:11 PM EDT
gee, I hope you meant TOW missles instead of toe.. what's in the warhead? Toe Jam? [:D] sure, those 'no-knock's' at the wrong address are dangerous, I'm surprised they haven't petitioned to get 155mm arty with tac-nuke's! [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:25:07 PM EDT
The author of the article said his agency already took delivery of one.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:28:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By soylent_green: I think I will leave a note for them to find just like Bruce Williis's character did in Die Hard: "Now I have a machinegun. Ha Ha." It ain't gonna happen. Nobody wants to give civilians, and yes you cops are civilians, machineguns for which there is no real use.
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I couldn't have said it better. Not to mention, there is no NEED except in border control cases for police to have a SAW. What scenario would dictate it? 1) Heavily armed BG's with hostages? Nope 2) Heavily armed BG's with body armor walking out of a bank? Nope, but this is where they'd THINK they'd need it. 3) Drug bust in a crack house with crack ho babies? Hmmmm 4) David Koresh compound? (FBI/ATF jurisdiction?) And not how would this be deployed? Special situation? Normal carry for SWAT, ESU? What firepower would they be trying to overcome that an MP5, M16 or other small arm couldn't do?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:28:33 PM EDT
Yes, I ment TOW, my finger just strayed a little East on the keyboard!
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:30:01 PM EDT
I'm agin it. LEOs need SAWs? I sorta doubt it.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:30:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:34:33 PM EDT
Toe missiles? What about finger darts? Apparently NYPD, and LASO has M-60's.........so I guess FN is just trying to corner that market when those need to be replaced. (??). I think FN is making reams of full auto belt fed weapons. I really don't think they care if they go the USA, USMC, or NYPD. I dboubt they will have many sales. But FN seems to be trying to get into the "LE" market. I think they have a "sniper rifle", a L-T-L launcher, and a few other less "un-PC" LE weapons.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:36:36 PM EDT
"I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which a full auto only, open bolt firing machine gun would be needed by police. i'm still trying to imagine a scenario in which I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which a full auto only, open bolt firing machine gun would be needed by you or me. if i can own them, why shouldn't the police own them? btw, check out the bulletfest video for a great shot of the minimi being fired OFFHAND. will a minimi do anything an m-16 won't? board member keith baranski (chief thunder) was just convicted of importing machine guns that were intended for leo/pmds sales. the federal prosecutor claimed the same story..."what on earth would a police department do with machineguns"... cops already use 40mm launchers (old m-79's and 203's) for a variety of uses from smoke to tear gas to punching holes in things.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:41:10 PM EDT
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F574609%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F575304%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F575219%2Ejpg[/img] Just remember, they are only there to help us...........
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:02:17 PM EDT
Campybob, maybe instead of saying 40mm grenade launcher I should have specified 40mm HE grenades for their grenade launchers. Or how about a MK 19 with HE? If you can own them why shouldn't the police? I'll tell you a big difference between yours and a police departments. I didn't pay for you to have your toy. I don't want to pay for the police to have a new toy either, and that is exactly what it would be for them. What are they going to do with the thing besides use it as a tax payer funded play thing.(Not that I blame them, they are pretty fun to shoot)
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:06:06 PM EDT
I'm not against cops/leos having automatic weapons but SAWS and M-60s? Uh no. At least the PDs in my area aren't dumb enough to try to get them. There are a lot of granola liberals and they would just howl like nobody's business. As for grenade launchers, yes the cops do use them launch gas grenades and such. They do not use them to launch real explosive grenades. So yes police should have grenade launchers for less lethal munitions. Okay? CRC
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:21:20 PM EDT
CRC, I agree that they have a need for weapons such as the MP5 and other point machine guns. Area MGs are a whole different ball game.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:25:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15: I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which a full auto only, open bolt firing machine gun would be needed by police.
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How about this one: Homeland Security deems that assault weapon ownership is a threat and these firearms must be turned in for destruction. M249s in the hands of law enforcement would be very beneficial against fanatical armed civilians.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:30:48 PM EDT
Imbroglio, I agree! They work great for initiating ambushes when you department runs a little short of claymores.[:)]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:46:38 PM EDT
ahh yes.. the heavily armed and armored LA sheriff's department... lovely
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:55:46 PM EDT
The LADP have LAV's\APC's? What is this,Kosovo?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 1:56:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By soylent_green: I think I will leave a note for them to find just like Bruce Williis's character did in Die Hard: "Now I have a machinegun. Ha Ha."
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You mean "Now I have a machinegun. Ho, Ho, Ho." Remember, he put the Santa hat on him?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 2:31:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Just remember, they are only there to help us...........
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Those are Mall Ninjas, not cops.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 3:32:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: "I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which a full auto only, open bolt firing machine gun would be needed by police. i'm still trying to imagine a scenario in which I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which a full auto only, open bolt firing machine gun would be needed by you or me. if i can own them, why shouldn't the police own them?
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I can own a full auto weapon becuase it is my right. LEO's can certainly do the same. Do I need one? I doubt it. I doubt I ever will. Is need a factor here? No, and I hope it never will be. The problem here is LEOs using MY money through taxes to purchase expensive toys for which there is no demonstrable need. If the cop wants to plunk down his hard earned money to buy his own personal MG there is nothing to stop him (other than the ATF and thei byzantine BS) and no need should have to be demonstrated. If he can get it approved as a carry item, more power to him, but I would like to know which chief would do that. If the department wishes to purchase these items you better believe there should be a demonstrable need, otherwise it is a spurious purchase. Get the difference?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 3:52:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 3:56:46 PM EDT
Why?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 3:59:58 PM EDT
The police State has been in effect for some time now. [url]http://www.infowars.com[/url]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 4:16:39 PM EDT
Hell, during the last Vet's day parade, saw an M109 self propelled howitzer on a trailer. Guy in front of me said to be careful, Sheriff Joe would want one. Sure enough, a couple of minutes later came a black painted M109 with flames painted on the barrel and MCSO (Maricopa Sheriff's Dept) painted on the side. Nothing like an LEO agency having it's own 8" big gun support for driving those criminals out in the open... Somebody get that Apache on standby.... Do you think he could float a decomissioned battleship in one of the lakes here?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 4:25:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: [url]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F574609%2Ejpg[/url] [url]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F575304%2Ejpg[/url] [url]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F575219%2Ejpg[/url] Just remember, they are only there to help us...........
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This is LAPD I believe....remember, to serve and protect!! I see no reason for any police department to have full-auto rifles, thus I expect the LAPD to have them very soon. Hell, most LEOs can't shoot a pistol properly, how the hell are they going to be able to handle a FA!!??!! Sgtar15
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 4:27:01 PM EDT
Well, one way to go around Posse Comitatus (probably spelled wrong, I know!) is to turn the police into the military. Beleive me the Feds know this and that's why our local police are being trained by Fema and Delta Force. And they've done it by incrementalization. Those of you who defended the black ski masks in the past, are defending the military weapons today. Its worse than NAZI GERMANY
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 4:41:59 PM EDT
The police should not have access to any weapon system above what the law abiding citizen has. I train them, btw. Cops in general are trying to do the right thing. I'm not anti-cop, just pro RKBA.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 5:13:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 5:16:16 PM EDT by 1_153_370_371_407]
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: if i can own them, why shouldn't the police own them?
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If I can't own them, why should they? If the cops are going to have machine guns, they should only be allowed to buy 15+ year old ones, and at the inflated prices caused by federally limited supply. If the cops don't like it, tough shit. Get rid of the law stopping me from owning new equipment and then I'll gladly support the police buying machine guns (using personal money, unless they can demonstrate a real need for having such things provided by tax dollars).
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:17:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: If the cops are going to have machine guns, they should only be allowed to buy 15+ year old ones, and at the inflated prices caused by federally limited supply.
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But that'd mean fewer pre-86 MGs for us...
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:23:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Valkyre: But that'd mean fewer pre-86 MGs for us...
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Ha! Would you sell a pre-86 MG to the government?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:28:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JoeDirt: The police should not have access to any weapon system above what the law abiding citizen has. I train them, btw. Cops in general are trying to do the right thing. I'm not anti-cop, just pro RKBA.
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I agree, and they can shoot them at the range where its safe to do so, just like the rest of us do.....
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:32:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Valkyre: But that'd mean fewer pre-86 MGs for us...
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Ha! Would you sell a pre-86 MG to the government?
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You may want to read the last part of the 5th Amendment "........nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." I hate to tell you, but you don't have to want to sell it, but you may HAVE to sell it if the govt. gets restricted to pre-'86 mg's. Emminent Domain can be a very bad thing, and since all MG's are registered............
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:34:30 PM EDT
Sylvan, I don't even think it would be a good idea as a counter sniper weapon. Ever fire one at night with tracers? You might get the bad guy but also get people three blocks down the street from all the bouncing friendly fire.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:37:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Valkyre: But that'd mean fewer pre-86 MGs for us...
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Ha! Would you sell a pre-86 MG to the government?
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You may want to read the last part of the 5th Amendment "........nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." I hate to tell you, but you don't have to want to sell it, but you may HAVE to sell it if the govt. gets restricted to pre-'86 mg's. Emminent Domain can be a very bad thing, and since all MG's are registered............
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or to avoid selling it, you could turn it on the people coming to make you sell it
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:38:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sigman: The LADP have LAV's\APC's? What is this,Kosovo?
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Anyone remember the North Hollywood bank robbery and borrowing an armored car meant for delivering cash to recover pinned down and wounded LAPD officers?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:42:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 7:46:08 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: or to avoid selling it, you could turn it on the people coming to make you sell it
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You are not advocating murder in a public forum are you? You're not saying that you would resist "emminant domain" transfer of property? Since it is a Constitutionally accepted legal priciple.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:44:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: or to avoid selling it, you could turn it on the people coming to make you sell it
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You are not advocating murder in a public forum are you?
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Not any more than anyone else who advocates resisting when they come to take your guns.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:45:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Anyone remember the North Hollywood bank robbery and borrowing an armored car meant for delivering cash to recover pinned down and wounded LAPD officers?
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I believe more non-cops were rescued using the armored car than cops. But it was cops carrying injured to the armored car. That aside, reason, logic, and sound tactics have nothing to do with this. Some people want to jump up and down and complain.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:46:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 7:47:08 PM EDT by 1_153_370_371_407]
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: or to avoid selling it, you could turn it on the people coming to make you sell it
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You are not advocating murder in a public forum are you?
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Not any more than anyone else who advocates resisting when they come to take your guns.
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and eminent domain wouldn't apply, because the gubnimint could end the shortage by removing an unconstitutional law personally, i think removing that law by force right now would be a great thing if enough people could be organized to do it, same thing for the "war on drugs"
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:50:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan: One legitimate use for the belt fed weapon. Counter Sniper for VIP Protection. A sniper trying to take out a VIP isn't going to be surrounded by civilians. He will be by himself. Instead of having a bunch of snipers who instantly have to calculate Range and make one shot count, just have a 240 on a tripod and start opening up. Even if you don't hit him, he isn't going to get his shot off. Much quicker reaction. Of course, only the Secret Service could really use that. For the rest, I have no idea why cops have ANY full auto. Too many movies, I guess. Stop buying full auto and start practicing more. Cops are better armed than most military units now.
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Wa-Hoo. So the next time I go see the president speak, I'll remember this one. Are you seriously advocating a VietNam Style Mad-Minute to deal with snipers??? WTF!!! Did you forget you're mother may be in that crowd the JBT have just mowed down???
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:53:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407:
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: or to avoid selling it, you could turn it on the people coming to make you sell it
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You are not advocating murder in a public forum are you?
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Not any more than anyone else who advocates resisting when they come to take your guns.
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and eminent domain wouldn't apply, because the gubnimint could end the shortage by removing an unconstitutional law personally, i think removing that law by force right now would be a great thing if enough people could be organized to do it, same thing for the "war on drugs"
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So now you are advocating the violent overthrow of the government?? That is also covered in the Constitution, it's called Treason.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:59:26 PM EDT
Treason to tyrants is obedience to God.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:00:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407:
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: or to avoid selling it, you could turn it on the people coming to make you sell it
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You are not advocating murder in a public forum are you?
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Not any more than anyone else who advocates resisting when they come to take your guns.
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and eminent domain wouldn't apply, because the gubnimint could end the shortage by removing an unconstitutional law personally, i think removing that law by force right now would be a great thing if enough people could be organized to do it, same thing for the "war on drugs"
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So now you are advocating the violent overthrow of the government?? That is also covered in the Constitution, it's called Treason.
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; ..." the brits called that treason do you consider the abuses heaped upon the people of this country by government run amok to be "light and transient causes"
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:11:02 PM EDT
Logic, principles, and conspiricies of govt domination aside, the need for these weapons is a pretty simple one. It's called money. It's the Military-Industrial Complex simply spreading itself into the civillian sector. It doesn't matter what use anyone has for it, what matters is that money is made on a project/sale. The same type of politicians that order extra aircraft and even whole ships be built because it's pork for their sector (even when the DoD specifically requests NOT to buy them due to funds) are the same type of folks that are authorizing these purchases, politicians. It has nothing to do with a tax payer having a say in what to buy either. That tax money is already spent. They've already stolen it out of your paycheck. They have "X" amount of money to spend, and by God, they're going to spend it. If they actually spent your money responsibly and had cash left over, they wouldn't have anyway to complain that they need more money next year. "Use it or loose it" is the way all government procurment goes. Corporate America recognizes this, and relies on it for it's profits. Most of us have heard, "If we make it out of black nylon, we can sell it to police departments" mentioned a couple times here on this board. With the Homeland Security thing going whole hog (because the public thinks throwing money at a problem will make it go away), security/police sales represents the new growth market for industry. Most of the DoD budget is going to be earmarked for operations, rather than spending bucks on gee-whiz tehcnology programs that last for decades (sure that's never going to stop, but there's no longer big growth there except for a chosen few), so they turn to the next best market that is growing. Police Departments, and the local governments. Many of these purchases will be funded under some federal program anyway, and as I noted before, it's a matter of "use it or loose it". It has nothing to do with a real need, or some plan for putting the American public under the heel of the Gestapo. It's simply the way that the government has to part you with tax money. Ross
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:36:10 PM EDT
Gotta agree with Ross on this one. It's called "clever marketing" and not much else. It's why we have ninja cops in the first place--all that crap really plays to the egos of the macho guys who have budget authority and lots of budget! It is a problem of unaccountability in government, and not much more. Well, it could become a bigger problem if they actually start wanting to use some of this military equipment more often, I suppose.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 9:21:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 9:36:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 9:38:16 PM EDT by DScott]
Machineguns for cops! Yes!! BIG machineguns for cops! Yes!! Why don't you ask the cops who want them what they want them for? I think they'd have a reason or two. Who here really has ANY clue what the reasons are?
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 9:58:23 PM EDT
A belt fed weapon. Maybe in inventory for effect, and for the occasional parade and/or show of force. But in use? I think not.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 10:35:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sigman: The LADP have LAV's\APC's? What is this,Kosovo?
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Shit, we have them in Snohomish Co. WA Tug is a tracked APC and we have a L.A.V.. The SAR team has tracked veh's, they had several H-mod huey's and a couple 500's, but were dumber than shit and gave them up to the Sheriffs office.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 6:26:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2002 6:28:59 AM EDT by SHIVAN]
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: Well when the Red Dawn scenario happens all you NRA members will be begging for your local police to bring out thier beltfeds.
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Does being an NRA member preclude you from owning a beltfed? Intelligent post.[rolleyes] I'm just disappointed I missed out on the Shrike. However, beltfed MG's are a bit of overkill in any urban police scenario, including the North Hollywood scenario. All they needed was semi-auto AR's to take them down, which is what did it IIRC....223 to the extremities. Ed
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