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Posted: 11/19/2002 5:04:30 AM EDT
Get a load of this BS! The ATF thinks criminals will use Garands and other 'old weapons' to commit crimes!! OMFG, I can't beleive those morons!! [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/16/national/16GUNS.html?ex=1038027600&en=d856cf44647c6750&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE[/url]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:07:00 AM EDT
quote: BATF doesn't want you to have a Garand too late. Garand times two here. [:D] my favorite? my H&R. a relative tack driver, with no mods and ball ammo.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:17:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:18:15 AM EDT
I know... it's already rediculous. I have one, and should have another one soon if all goes well. I plan on at least a couple more, as well as a few other WWII service rifles. Yeah, they're powerful, but I'd just LOVE to see your average gangbanger even TRY to figure out how to even LOAD an M1! That would be good for some serious laughs. Besides, if M1s and Carbines were imported for sale to the public, people STILL have to go through the federal background check to buy them. Wouldn't the CMP get a lot of them anyway?
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:21:28 AM EDT
From the article:
The federal gun control bureau...
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WTF is [b]THAT?[/b] The BATF is a TAX agency. Scott
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:25:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 3:42:19 PM EDT by Wipeout]
Originally Posted By Matthew_Q: but I'd just LOVE to see your average gangbanger even TRY to figure out how to even LOAD an M1!
Hell, I think we should give the gang bangers our Garands. By the time they figure out how to load it, they wont have any fingers left to pull the trigger.[BD] M1 Thumb as we call it.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:29:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:39:50 AM EDT
Didn't you know that the BATF was not anti gun! [rolleyes] Here is a quote from John Magaw himself:
I can assure you that it is not ATF's intention to undermine or weaken the firearms industry. Frankly, I am concerned that ATF has been made by some to symbolize a threat to the private ownership of firearms. I want to make it clear that law-abiding citizens have no reason to fear our mission.
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The article posted makes it even more clear to me that government needs to purge itself of politcal hacks. (Yeah, like that'll happen) That Malone guy needs to be fired immedately. Not only does he say that these guns can easily be converted to full auto, but he says this:
But Mr. Malone, in his letter to the State Department, said the group's proposal "would open the United States commercial market to potentially 2.5 million new weapons" which "A.T.F. generally has no authority to control."
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He seems pissed that his "authority" is just limited to taxing, licensing and tracing. He wants ATF to have the authority to say yes or no to anything regarding firearms, something the don't currently have. That's like giving the DMV import authority. These things are done through code law, not rogue agency interpretation.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:45:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 5:56:51 AM EDT by LARRYG]
and carbines and Garand rifles, which can be easily converted into automatic weapons. Moreover, the letter warned, the carbine and Garand can fire bullets capable of piercing the soft body armor worn by police officers.
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1. Convert a Garand with it's 8 shot clip to full auto. What an absolute fucking joke. Sure, you can do it, but why? The 8 shots would be gone in about a second and by the third shot, you are an anti-aircraft gun. An M1 Carbine round penetrate body armor???? Are they kidding?????? Hell, in Korea, the North Korean winter clothing was stopping those rounds. Don't get me wrong, I love my little Inland Carbine, but please! You notice the catch phrases normally used by the anti-gun groups..."piercing police body armor".....blah, blah, blah. I thought these clowns were just supposed to enforce the law, not serve as mouthpieces for the Brady Bunch or lobby for more gun laws. The crap spouted by the ATF in this article sounds [b]EXACTLY'[/b] like something from Sarah Brady's mouth. Ahh, here's the real rub:
But Mr. Malone, in his letter to the State Department, said the group's proposal "would open the United States commercial market to potentially 2.5 million new weapons" which "A.T.F. generally has no authority to control."
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They don't want to lose any power. I love this:
But the bureau warned that the change could allow as many as two million weapons, many of them able to shoot the deadlier kinds of bullets, to enter the private commercial market legally for the first time. The bureau cited a recent report of its own that found that 7,243 American-made weapons intended for military use had been used in crimes, even though it was unlawful to re-import most if not all of them.
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I would like to know exactly what military weapons were exported, then reimported and then used in crimes, especially 7,243 of them. This smacks of Brady type 'facts'. Anyway, they are too late, as I have some original WWII Springfields to go with my WWII Inland carbine, so fuck off. Now I guess I will have to order one of each from CMP, then wait to see who gets the imports and get some of those just to spite the bastards. This type of BS is really turning me and a lot of other folks more militant every fucking day. I am sicked an tired of hearing 'the weapon of choice for criminals', 'piercing police body armor', 'for the children' because it's all BS. A bunch of feel good, chicken shit crap to make the soccer mommies feel better, when it really is doing nothing but punishing those that have never committed a crime. How about a little criminal control instead of more damn gun control. Like someone's sig line says, everytime there is some major shooting, they want to punish those that didn't do it. How about the hostage standoff in Spain yesterday? An idiot was, or is still, holding children hostage with a knife. I have not heard the resolution on that, as it is not being covered by the major news sources. I just heard about it on the local channel last night. You can bet that if he was using a gun it would be all over the news. He can kill those defenseless children just as dead with a knife, but since he is using a knife, it is not newsworthy. I am so tired of hearing these gun control lies every day.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 6:01:50 AM EDT
It's all about power. I hope the Bush adminsistration can do something about these ATF administrators. They need to get some people in there that support an individual's RKBAs. Why is the ATF commenting on this at all? If these weapons would be outside of their authority to regulate then why have they been asked about whether they should be imported?
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 6:17:31 AM EDT
I don't suppose you remember "THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH" In other words my interpetration is the weak, lame, lazy, tree hugging, squirrel saving, grass eating, save the dandelion,ect ect ect... GOD ITS GREAT TO BE A DINOSAUROUS GUN WEILDING GRUNTASOUROUS
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 6:39:15 AM EDT
Someone should have changed their name to "Fantasyland Times" years ago.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:26:36 AM EDT
Anyone know who we can write to support the enactment of this rule change? If they imported a million Garands, that would make a C&R worth it.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:36:26 AM EDT
Word. Me an' my homiez always totes M1 gurands. Dey is mos excellent when robbin' likka sto's, drive by shoo-in from my hoopty, and when I'm sellin' crack up in here. I use dem 8 rounds banana clips, anI find not only do de bullets penetrate the soft body armor dat de po-po wears,de bayonet I got to go wif it penetrates da protective skin dat officers wears. True dat about da 187 on my fums. PEACE OUT!
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:39:01 AM EDT
Imposter, I think it would be someone in the State Department. The BATF is complaining to them about the possiblility of importing these rifles that were ours to begin with. The BATF idiots don't seem to realize that the rifles would have to go through the CMP or another FEDERALLY LICENSED importer or dealer. Anyone who buys one still has to go through FEDERALLY MANDATED requirements (Brady Bill check, or have C&R LICENSE) yeesh, those BATF morons are dumb.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:54:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:56:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 7:56:47 AM EDT by 2whiskeyP]
gunmonkey said [b]hoopty[/b]! LOL that cracks me up! Anyway, I sure hope that the BATF lets us know where to get these when they come in. If as many show up as they say at one time they should be pretty inexpensive. I would need to pick up a couple of them! Bring it on baby[sniper]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 8:04:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 8:04:56 AM EDT
Oh they know about them having to go thru a FFL and they know that we know too. What they are banking on is that the average sheeple doesn't know that and will just take the ATF's word on it, since they are the "experts".......[puke]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 8:17:53 AM EDT
I think we better get what we want. It looks like the supply may be drying up in the near future. Get the guns boys! Don't forget to buy ammo for those guns or you will just have a pretty piece of metal locked in your gun safe! Turbo5 [pyro]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 8:31:54 AM EDT
WTF is goin' on?? It would be a waste to make a Garand "full auto"! I don't even know if its possible. I can't believe these assholes! Has the ATF taken up using CRACK? It wouldn't do any good to point out the obvious things to the ATF like the CMP or FFL dealers because it would make too much sense! Who is "the man" that we write to so its decided in our favor?? I'm ready to write another letter!!
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 8:54:50 AM EDT
The limitations on sale /trade of these weapons was intended to keep them out of the hands of unpleasant folk that aren't friendly to the US. It's a sad day when law-abiding, tax paying, voting US citizens (including veterans and civil servants) are thrown into that category.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 8:57:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 9:56:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Crap. The list of "Must own because the government doesn't like it" is getting much longer by the day. When I die, I am going to have 50,000 guns, and no money to my name [BD]
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So when you die we can give you a 50,000 gun salute [smoke] And don't forget to include all your AR15.com friends in your WILL [:)]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 10:14:12 AM EDT
I think it is time to ban the BATF, obviously they think they are the know all tell all anti gun freaks of the country~~ time to shut em down and make all stand in the unemployment line!!! Or is this in line with the administrations new stand on guns "Guns fit for criminal use" ...all guns are fit so all guns must be banned?.........Are the Dems and Reps that far apart on gun control? or do they both want the same ends?
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 11:18:32 AM EDT
Can someone please enlighten me? How is it that an official from the BATF can actively promote a political agenda. I'm active duty military. I'm required to keep my political views seperate from my profession. I cannot use the power of my position to promote any sort of political agenda, and attending political events in any sort of official capacity is forbidden. While they're at it, why didn't he just ask readers to make a contribution to the Brady Campaign!
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 11:22:39 AM EDT
[b]ALL YOUR GARANDS ARE BELONG TO US[/b]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 1:26:31 PM EDT
*gag*
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 1:31:00 PM EDT
I am betting that these Clinton appointees don't even know what a Garand is. All they think about is keeping gun prices high... It will be so nice when the Homland Security bill takes away these guys civil service protection so they can be fired...
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 1:47:30 PM EDT
Waitaminnit - "deadlier kinds of bullets?" You mean that not only are there rounds that can kill someone DEAD, I can get ammo to kill someone DEADER? Where can I find this stuff? It's almost like (IIRC) someone with the LA Times talking about "high-capacity ammunition." WTF? Must be those Remington Ultra Mags he's talking about... Can F Troop be dismantled by Executive Order? These tax guys are getting out of hand... I'm honestly considering looking for a job in their Technical Branch - either I can educate them or get high enough to DO SOMETHING! FFZ
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 1:57:10 PM EDT
How many of you sent a letter to the State Department, BATF, your Senators and representitives? Here is mine. To the person this concerns: My name is USNJoe. I am a law abiding American Citizen, a tax payer and a firearms owner. I read the following article and I felt that I must comment on it and voice my opposition to the policy. According to this article Mr. John P. Malone has made some statements that sound more like the blather coming from a member of Hand Gun Control vice an impartial Government Agency. I would like to know why the BATF is so opposed to allowing World War Two era weapons back into the United States of America? Some of the following types of non-American types of firearms are currently allowed to be imported in the USA: Hakims, FN 49's, K-98's, M-48's and FAL's. I do not understand why the BATF feels this way. The United States currently has a program in place that allows a United States Citizen to purchase WWII vintage firearms, the M1 Garand being the most common. In addition to US made M1 Garands there are Danish M1 Garands that are part of this program. So it is OK to import the listed firearms but Garands are not with the exception of the Danish M1 Garands? How would the importation of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines and M1911 pistols flood the market? The world of civilian gun retailers would more than likely have these weapons priced at collectors prices, meaning that they would not be sold for cheap. Ever priced a CMP Garand from the CMP or one that is for sale at a gun shop? In addition each and everyone of the articles listed firearms is being reproduced and is for sale in the United States of America. Please let me know what the National Crime Statistics are concerning the use of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines and M1911 pistols are. The statement "flood the market with outdated but deadly weapons that could fall into the hands of criminals and would be hard to regulate" strikes me as someone at the BATF saying that they can't do their job right in the first place. Any firearm can fall into the hands of criminals. And your point being? That is why they are called CRIMINALS in the first place. As the Federal Agency that is tasked with being the National Experts on firearms the following statement shows that some of your experts don't know what they are talking about and / or your real agenda is to do nothing less nothing less than ban firearms. "pistols that are readily concealed and carbines and Garand rifles, which can be easily converted into automatic weapons." Any PISTOL can be readily concealed, not just these WWII bringback pistols. Are you then going to use that statement as a foothold to ban the private sales of pistol and revolver sales to the American Public? Any firearms expert knows that the M1 Garand CAN NOT be "easily converted" to an automatic weapon. That is the reason why the US Military changed from the M1 Garand to the M14 rifle. And every firearms expert knows that the M1 Garand and the M14 are two different weapons that LOOK the same. "the carbine and Garand can fire bullets capable of piercing the soft body armor worn by police officers." As can any deer rifle sold in America. Your statement came right from Hand Gun Controls handbook of "How to ban weapons by lying". "import restrictions by the Clinton administration" Ahhh, now I see. It was a policy that was set in place by the OLD left-wing liberal Constitution hating Clinton Administration. I wonder what is going to happen when this is brought to the attention of American Firearm owners, the ones who will write their elected officials and demand that this "policy" of the former gun grabbing administration be struck from the public record. "But the bureau warned that the change could allow as many as two million weapons, many of them able to shoot the deadlier kinds of bullets, to enter the private commercial market legally for the first time." Again, more false statements. The Military rounds in question, FMJ, is a less deadly round than current hunting soft-points. The M1 Garand, as stated previously, is currently SOLD BY THE UNITED STATED GOVERNMENT to the American people! M1 Carbines that have been modified to semi-automatic fire only and M1 Carbines that have been copycatted and that can only fire in a semi-automatic mode are CURRENTLY sold LEGALLY in the United States of America. This WOULD NOT be the first time that any of the three firearms listed by the BATF letter would be sold legally in the United States of America. "Mr. Malone, in his letter to the State Department, said the group's proposal "would open the United States commercial market to potentially 2.5 million new weapons" which "A.T.F. generally has no authority to control." How can Mr. Malone say that? He works for the BATF, right? You have some sort of a training program in place for your employees? While the BATF can not directly control the introduction of these firearms into the "the United States commercial market" the FBI can though the National Instant Check Program. All first time buyers of these firearms would be required to follow the current Federal Law concerning the commercial resale of firearms in addition to what the separate states may have in place. It is beyond me as to why the BATF would oppose this. The same firearms that are now currently owned by the American Public are no more of a threat that the ones that SHOULD be imported back into the United States of America. I am asking for the reason why the BATF thinks that the importation of these firearms should be stopped. I would like the actual study with the facts. As a law abiding American Citizen and as a 20 year member of Americas Armed Forces I know what freedoms I have been fighting for the past 20 years. I just want to know what is happening to my right to Keep and Bear Arms. Very Respectfully, USNJoe
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 3:53:57 PM EDT
Some people are more serious than others when they take the oath to protect the constitution.
Originally Posted By Rescueram: Can someone please enlighten me? How is it that an official from the BATF can actively promote a political agenda. I'm active duty military. I'm required to keep my political views seperate from my profession. I cannot use the power of my position to promote any sort of political agenda, and attending political events in any sort of official capacity is forbidden. While they're at it, why didn't he just ask readers to make a contribution to the Brady Campaign!
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Link Posted: 11/19/2002 4:06:55 PM EDT
BATF doesn't want me to have a Garand? What a coincidence. My Garand doesn't want BATF to have me.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 4:25:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 6:49:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 6:56:07 PM EDT by warlord]
Originally Posted By Rescueram: Can someone please enlighten me? How is it that an official from the BATF can actively promote a political agenda. I'm active duty military. I'm required to keep my political views seperate from my profession. I cannot use the power of my position to promote any sort of political agenda, and attending political events in any sort of official capacity is forbidden. While they're at it, why didn't he just ask readers to make a contribution to the Brady Campaign!
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Well, welcome to the real world, "The playing field is never level, and the rules are never fair." A few years back, Chief of Police McNamara of San Jose, CAlif in full uniform would make a political anti-gun speech before the public, while his counter-part, pro-gun NRA member Lyle Pyle would be required to wear civilian clothes. Hows that for fair play? ------ added John Magaw the former head of the BATF suddenly left the TSA, there was no announcement of the reason but I suspect that it had to do with the authorization of arming pilots.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:06:41 PM EDT
November 16, 2002 Agency Fighting Proposal to Import Old Weapons By JEFF GERTH and RICHARD W. STEVENSON ASHINGTON, Nov. 14 — The federal gun control bureau is strongly opposing a proposal to let gun sellers and owners import as many as two million World War II era infantry weapons that were made in the United States and exported to the world's armies decades ago. The objections from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms come as the State Department is considering the proposal, which is being pressed by a trade association that lobbies for gun importers. The bureau says the idea, which would lift a 50-year-old ban, would flood the market with outdated but deadly weapons that could fall into the hands of criminals and would be hard to regulate. A letter from the firearms bureau, part of the Treasury Department, warned that the change would prevent it from stopping the criminal use of "particularly dangerous" old guns: pistols that are readily concealed and carbines and Garand rifles, which can be easily converted into automatic weapons. Moreover, the letter warned, the carbine and Garand can fire bullets capable of piercing the soft body armor worn by police officers. The weapons, exported to Asia, South America and countries elsewhere and still available around the world, have generally not been allowed back into the United States, though there is a legal exception that permits the import of equipment classified as "curio or relics." The State Department, which by law regulates trade in United States defense equipment, is weighing a proposal made last year by the Firearms Importers' Roundtable Trade Group, which is led by a top dealer in and collector of machine-gun parts and accessories. The group, set up in the wake of import restrictions by the Clinton administration, argues that the imports would be used by collectors, in shooting competitions or for other legitimate purposes. A briefing paper prepared by the firearm importers says the guns "are not crime guns" or "weapons of choice among criminals," an argument based on the group's analysis of crime reports by the firearms bureau. But the bureau warned that the change could allow as many as two million weapons, many of them able to shoot the deadlier kinds of bullets, to enter the private commercial market legally for the first time. The bureau cited a recent report of its own that found that 7,243 American-made weapons intended for military use had been used in crimes, even though it was unlawful to re-import most if not all of them. John P. Malone, the assistant director for firearms and explosives at the bureau, cited this statistic two months ago when he wrote the State Department to oppose the proposal. A department spokesman declined to discuss the proposal, saying it was still under review. "It is a matter of interagency discussion, and it would be inappropriate to comment," the spokesman said on the condition of anonymity. At issue are rifles and handguns sold to United States allies more than 50 years ago. The potential universe, a 1998 federal report says, includes more than 950,000 Garand rifles, more than 1.2 million M-1 carbines and nearly 300,000 M-1911 pistols. A firearms expert who supports the policy change estimates the market at 1.5 million, but says many of them may not be capable of being fired. It is not known how many of the weapons still work. The firearms trade group says "there will not be millions of guns flooding the marketplace" because "market forces will control what is imported" and there would be "unusually lengthy" reviews by the firearms bureau and the State Department. The group also says buyers would be subject to the "same requirements that apply when purchasing other firearms," like background checks. But Mr. Malone, in his letter to the State Department, said the group's proposal "would open the United States commercial market to potentially 2.5 million new weapons" which "A.T.F. generally has no authority to control." Mr. Malone's letter was provided by an official opposed to the policy change. The gun trade group was set up in 1994 after the Clinton administration imposed an embargo on the importation of firearms and ammunition from China. The group's goal, according to reports in the specialized gun trade press, is to open United States gun markets and provide as many choices as possible. Commercial manufacturers make firearms similar to the old military models. The trade group's president is Charles Steen. A profile of Mr. Steen's company, Sarco Inc., in the magazine Small Arms Review, says the business, which is based in Stirling, N.J., and licensed by the firearms bureau, focuses on the accumulation or collection of surplus military material. The profile describes Sarco as "the leader in machine-gun parts and accessories" and "arguably the largest dealer in surplus war material in the country." Sarco's Web site draws attention to a new feature: "Machine Gun Dave's Machine Gun Page," where the top item is a 1928 Colt commercial water-cooled tripod listed for $1,250. On June 27, 2001, Mr. Steen's group petitioned the State Department to "lift the import restrictions historically imposed on `obsolete and historic U.S. military small arms, ammunition, and demilitarized equipment,' " according to Mr. Malone's letter. The trade group's lawyer is Mark Barnes, a leading firearms lobbyist in Washington. Mr. Barnes provided a copy of the trade group's background paper — which echoes its 2001 proposal — but Mr. Steen declined to be interviewed for this article. After the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the proposal sat idle, but more recently the trade group has met with State Department officials, including once late last summer, a person who attended said. On Sept. 10, Mr. Malone wrote to Lincoln P. Bloomfield Jr., the assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, saying that the proposal would "undo over 50 years of established policy governing the transfer and import of these weapons." Surplus military firearms have been banned from import under federal gun control laws. But in 1984, the Gun Control Act was amended to create an exception: firearms classified as "curio or relics," which include weapons and ammunition more than 50 years old. Since 1949 there have been strict limits on the ability of foreign governments to distribute equipment they receive under United States military assistance programs. In 1987, the State Department restated its general ban on the initial retransfer of United States military weapons, but created an exception. Foreign governments could sell to private entities if they could show "significant public interest," including guarantees that the equipment would be used for its intended purpose, such as being placed on "static display in a museum and demilitarized," Mr. Malone's letter said. Mr. Steen's group maintains that the State Department has interpreted the law too narrowly and should approve as "the rule, rather than the exception," imports of United States military equipment. Copyright The New York Times Company |
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:30:19 PM EDT
I really think that all this crap about the importing of WWII firearms "flooding" the market with "copkiller" guns is pretty retarded, and it comes from men that must not know anything about modern day rifle rounds. Hmm maybe they should ban the 7mm round fired out of semi auto magazine fed rifles, which can probably pierce the "light body armor" from 500-600 yds away. And wasnt the M1 Carbine always semi-auto in WWII? Then they made the "M2" which was the full auto version. Imagine how fun that would be to shoot [:D]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 8:43:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Originally Posted By CrazyIrishman: WTF is goin' on?? It would be a waste to make a Garand "full auto"! I don't even know if its possible.
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[url]http://www.a-10.org/video/M1_Garand_Bump_Fire.mpeg[/url]
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Tracker, Well,I guess I stand corrected(sorta)! Now if it wasn't limited by 8 rounds(voila! M14 time)!
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 9:24:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CrazyIrishman:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Originally Posted By CrazyIrishman: WTF is goin' on?? It would be a waste to make a Garand "full auto"! I don't even know if its possible.
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[url]http://www.a-10.org/video/M1_Garand_Bump_Fire.mpeg[/url]
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Tracker, Well,I guess I stand corrected(sorta)! Now if it wasn't limited by 8 rounds(voila! M14 time)!
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I'm not going full auto on a rifle like that in .30-06. No way.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 9:28:48 PM EDT
So now, we move from 'exotic assault weapons' to 2 60 year old service rifles... And complaining about raising the number of .45's available in the US today? Springfield, Kimber, et all are doing a nice job of raising that number anyhow, re-importation or no... Uhh... It's only one of the most common handguns on the market today...
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:42:00 AM EDT
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