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Posted: 11/15/2002 12:35:55 PM EDT
Now this goes to geek stuff too. The Star Trek episode where Picard is captured and the cardassian keeps asking him how many lights he sees, has always bugged me. Do I not get it? Why not just say okay I see 3 lights. As long as you don't tell him anything useful, why not tell him what he wants to hear?
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 12:49:30 PM EDT
Repeat after me: it's just TV.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 12:49:59 PM EDT
Actually that is the current rule. We tried to get Airmen to only give name rank and serial number. But the torturers nearly always won. And probably a lot of MIAs are actually KIA from their treatment. So when faced with torture or death they are supposed to give them what they want to hear. The emphasis being on "give them what they want to hear", which is usually wrong and misleading. Sadly our people still get raped and tortured. Torture, rape, and murder of POW's it turns out rarely has anything to do with intelligence and everything to do with raceism, religious bigotry, or powertripping over simply possessing a helpless person.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 12:51:56 PM EDT
So what to do if you are captured and tortured for information.
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I'd tell them whatever they want to hear. As long as they don't make me watch a hot redhead pick her nose and eat the booger. If they did that, I'd hold out because of pure hateful spite.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:00:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:05:14 PM EDT
Make shit up that sounds good.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:07:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: always save the last round for yourself. problems solved.
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My thought too. [):)]
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:07:40 PM EDT
For a good read on the subject try [u]Bravo Two Zero[/u]. Another good reason to let loose the dogs on Mr. Hussein.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:11:13 PM EDT
Never be taken alive..........
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 5:31:16 PM EDT
You will break. Everyone does. Three things to keep in mind. 1) is your information time sensitive, ie. will telling them later rather than now save lives? 2) Muddy the waters with lies and half truths before you break, so even when you give it up they won't know for sure what or how much to believe. 3) Are you really saving yourself pain or your life; as stated above, it may not stop the trture, or they may simply kill you when you give it up, thus holding out actually keeps you alive. All very unpleasant. Unfortunately the human condition has historically been unpleasant.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 5:40:24 PM EDT
Puke....and cry.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 5:51:00 PM EDT
Pretend you are an idiot, but give them useless facts to keep them interested and keep you alive. Do not be hostile since you are SOL already. At the first realistic chance : Escape.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 5:52:01 PM EDT
I have always been under the impression that it was standard operating procedure to ASSUME that when anyone with relevant military info is captured, he spills his guts immediately. Two good reasons for that: 1) it lets the captured man decide for himself just how far he will let the torture go, before breaking, and 2) relieves him of any guilt that he is actually giving the enemy anything of substance. Any plans, placements, tactics, etc., that the captured man is privy to will be changed based upon the assumption that he is talking. End of matter, no fuss, no muss. Eric The('VeHafVaysUfMakinkYouTalk')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:00:36 PM EDT
Untill the late sixties there was a statute in the UCMJ that made giving the enemy anything more than your name, rank, and serial number a crime. Punishable by court martial and prison time here. But the experiences of our POW's in Korea, and especally Vietnam and what happened to the [i]Pueblo[/i] crew got that changed. Some of the men who supposedly "defected" to the Chinese and Koreans in the Korean war did so simply because the had cracked and then afterward felt that all they would be coming home to was a prison cell.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:06:39 PM EDT
Well not info that matters, I was more curious why in this specific instance he just didn't say what the guy wanted to hear. The guy asks how many lights do you see behind me. There are 4 lights so Picard says 4. He says you must be mistaken, there are only 3, and proceeds to torture him till he says that he sees 3 lights. Why in this case, not just say sure there are 3 lights.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:08:57 PM EDT
Its an act of defiance.
Originally Posted By Andrewh: Now this goes to geek stuff too. The Star Trek episode where Picard is captured and the cardassian keeps asking him how many lights he sees, has always bugged me. Do I not get it? Why not just say okay I see 3 lights. As long as you don't tell him anything useful, why not tell him what he wants to hear?
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Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:10:12 PM EDT
Well spoken my friend. FREE
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: You will break. Everyone does. Three things to keep in mind. 1) is your information time sensitive, ie. will telling them later rather than now save lives? 2) Muddy the waters with lies and half truths before you break, so even when you give it up they won't know for sure what or how much to believe. 3) Are you really saving yourself pain or your life; as stated above, it may not stop the trture, or they may simply kill you when you give it up, thus holding out actually keeps you alive. All very unpleasant. Unfortunately the human condition has historically been unpleasant.
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Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:16:16 PM EDT
Save the last one.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:27:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:32:02 PM EDT
Article V of the Code of Conduct...
When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am bound to give only name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
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Notice it does not say that you are to instantly give all you know. It also does not say to resist until you're dead. It say to resist "to the utmost" of your ability. As mentioned before, everyone will eventually break, to some degree or another. As long as you have resisted to the utmost of your ability, nobody can ever fault you. That is the purpose of the code of conduct. It gives you a code by which to survive, and it allows for human frailty. It also allows you to recover and gather yourself should you break. I've heard many POW's (mostly Vietnam War vets) talk about how the CoC allowed them to continue and continue to resist, even when they talked under duress. They never gave up. Second, never, ever, ever make up a story. Confabulate, be vague, but never lie. They will be well rested and take notes, video, etc. and will catch you in your own web as you will be tired and have nothing to fall back on.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:33:17 PM EDT
I might hold out for a while but if they make ONE MOVE for Jim and the twins....I'll tell them where you all live.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:34:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TWIRE: For a good read on the subject try [u]Bravo Two Zero[/u]. Another good reason to let loose the dogs on Mr. Hussein.
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These were my exact thoughts as I was reading your question. [u]Bravo Two Zero[/u] is about British SAS commandos who were captured deep within Iraq. It details the torture that the Iraqis used against the captured commandos. The SAS fed the Iraqi interrogators a BS story and stuck to it as long as they could. They ultimately knew that the Iraqis would find out that their stories were garbage, but by that time, the good guys would know that they had been captured and would assume that the mission had been compromised. Once the prisoners broke and told the real story, it was of no matter as the allied forces had already made the appropriate changes.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 6:51:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade: Make shit up that sounds good.
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That seems to be working well at Guantanamo Bay.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 7:25:53 PM EDT
Lie like a rug, and do your level best to convince your captors that you're both not very bright and crazy as a loon. CJ
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 12:48:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno: ... Once the prisoners broke and told the real story, it was of no matter as the allied forces had already made the appropriate changes.
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actually, no one in the unit gave the real story. when McNab 'broke', he gave another false story, but one which tallied with what the iraquis knew. their mission was never revealed.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 1:32:12 AM EDT
Well if you were unlucky enough to have the fun schools in the military.... some of you know the ones,, where they can beat the snot out of you and can brake only small bones. Someone should remember them? You go into a auto mode and stay alive.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 1:35:48 AM EDT
Squeeeeeeeeeeeel like a pig [>q]
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 1:37:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 7:52:51 AM EDT
That reminds me of the little bit that Robin Williams did in Good Morning, Vietnam: (Robin Williams) "Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the visit on the QT because if it leaks to the VC he could end up an MIA and then we'd all be on KP" Or something along those lines, anyway... CJ
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 8:39:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2002 8:49:44 PM EDT by xanadu]
Originally Posted By TwoStage: Well if you were unlucky enough to have the fun schools in the military.... some of you know the ones,, where they can beat the snot out of you and can brake only small bones. Someone should remember them? You go into a auto mode and stay alive.
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Ahh, yes.. I remember it like yesterday. First was DWEST (Deep Water Environmental Survival Training) also known as "intentional drowning". After a week of floating/drowning in San Diego bay. then it's off to SERE school. (Survival, Evaision, Resistance and Escape Training). That's when the fun begins, you starve for 3 days and end up getting captured. After you're catured, you get tortured, interrogated and get the shit beaten out of you. This process is repeated each and every hour for 2 to 3 days. To address the trekkies delima (in real world terms) Everyone breaks, at what time is an individual matter. You get tortured, you resist, you lie, you suffer, then you give a little info, you shut up. After a period of repeating this, you mix truth with bullshit and you've given as much truth and disinformation as you can. When they find out about the parts of the information that is bullshit, they torture you somemore. In SERE shcool, the evoloution does not end until EVERYONE has broken. From the most junior enlisted to the most senior officer, EVERYONE breaks or the evoloution keeps going until they do. The final outcome of the school is: If you ever are captured, you will know where your physical, emotional and psychological breaking points are. By knowing these you can formulate a plan to resist, dis-inform and survive for the maximum amount of time. My SERE Certificate is dated 4 April, 1980.
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