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Posted: 11/15/2002 10:54:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2002 11:04:25 AM EDT by Spade]
[url]http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/4488971.htm[/url]
More times than not, in fact, officers missed their intended targets and sent bullets flying, raising questions about whether they should have started shooting at all. Miami police fired about 1,300 bullets at suspects in those 12 years, and missed more than 1,100 times. At least 20 of those bullets ended up inside nearby homes, including one case in which a woman found a police bullet in her microwave. Officers have blown out their own windshields at least six times. They have shot their own dashboards, their own car doors. At least three times, they have even shot at each other by mistake.
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Poster's note: If this becomes a general "All cops everywhere suck and cannot shoot, let's eat their children" thread, I will delete it myself.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:13:16 AM EDT
....Richard Brown, 73, was shot at 122 times and died in his tiny two-bedroom apartment. During the shooting, his 14-year-old great-granddaughter cowered on the bathroom floor as bullets pierced the walls around her. Five officers claimed they returned fire after Brown, suspected of drug dealing, fired at them first. But physical evidence and witness statements contradicted their stories.
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The land of sunshine and corpses riddled with 122 bullets. Musta been a helluva' baddass 73 year old to need that much lead to put him down.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:13:18 AM EDT
"All cops everywhere suck and cannot shoot, let's eat their children"
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Can we turn that into a "their training sucks and the state and local governments need to be punished for not providing more money for training" post? Only hitting the target 200 out of 1,300 times is horrible! There's no way the fault could completely lie with the officers.z
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:15:44 AM EDT
They definently got a training problem big time down there. Do they drive their crusers as bad as they shoot?
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:16:14 AM EDT
And the gov. wants US to take a shooting test in order to carry a pistol......... Let's turn that table around.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:16:56 AM EDT
It seems to me if the "victims" would have thrown their hands up and given themselves up. The cops wouldn't have had to shoot them in the first place.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:28:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade: Poster's note: If this becomes a general "All cops everywhere suck and cannot shoot, let's eat their children" thread, I will delete it myself.
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As a Certified Cop Hater, I had several responses in mind, but I can't stop laughing long enough at the above to form them into coherent statements. ...Eat their children indeed.[img]http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/lol.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:48:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: They definently got a training problem big time down there. Do they drive their crusers as bad as they shoot?
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It seems to me that even if your agency didn't provide enough training opportunities, you'd take it upon yourself to get to a range from time to time. I saw some cops at the last IDPA shoot, complete with SWAT shirts and thigh holsters (and dressed in black in 95 degree heat, "cool" is an oxymoron for those guys). I think the 12 year old that was shooting in my group turned in a better score than them. I am betting that there are training opportunities offered that most of the officers don't take advantage of. They go to the range to qualify whenever they have to and that's it. Maybe some South Florida po-po can shed some light on this?
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 11:58:19 AM EDT
To all of you civilian cop bashers, would you rather that all of those missed bullets be from the guns of criminals? At least these target missed rounds were helping to keep you safe a little longer.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 12:04:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: To all of you civilian cop bashers, would you rather that all of those missed bullets be from the guns of criminals? At least these target missed rounds were helping to keep you safe a little longer.
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First of all, what is it that makes a cope a non-civilian? I thought we had cleared this one up ages ago. This does bring up a good point however, I wonder what the statistic is on innocent bystanders hit by criminals.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 12:23:39 PM EDT
It is a mix of crappy training and the predisposition of some MPD officers to go off on a dime. MPD has gotten in trouble before for beating unarmed/non-resisting persons up...and even once started a riot (in Liberty City) after beating the shit out of a black guy. I have no doubt they'd snap and shoot at the drop of a dime. They seriously need to clean house down in Miami. Carollo at least took the first step getting rid of that POS Warshaw. Now, he needs to have complete mental workups done on all his officers and fire the ones who are nuts.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:16:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade: Officers have blown out their own windshields at least six times. They have shot their own dashboards, their own car doors.
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When sitting inside my car, shooting at a badguy who is outside my car, i dont worry about my windshield. If i can kill the BG by shooting through my own windshield i will. The newspaper can critisize me all the want later.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:28:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 2:30:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 2:34:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 2:45:58 PM EDT
" I know it is sure nerve wracking when those IDPA targets get up and start popping rounds back at the competitors." shotar...you've been to tusco! i know you've seen the station that shoots nerf balls back at you (pneumatic fired) while you shoot. that's 'scarey' to us "civilians"!
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 2:58:27 PM EDT
200 hits out of 1300 shots? That's around 15%... IIRC, that's about average for police shootings. Anybody have exact figures, and who does it any better? Whatever ths question, the answer will always be: Training, training, training!
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 3:02:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: " I know it is sure nerve wracking when those IDPA targets get up and start popping rounds back at the competitors." shotar...you've been to tusco! i know you've seen the station that shoots nerf balls back at you (pneumatic fired) while you shoot. that's 'scarey' to us "civilians"!
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Really? Some place has a setup like that? Cool.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 3:11:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2002 3:13:26 PM EDT by cc48510]
Forget Nerf Balls...We need a system that shoots Airsoft Pellets. Now that is a sting you won't forget. I have been shot with an Airsoft before (including shooting myself once). It stung like hell, but I was fine. You might also consider Paintballs as an alternative...
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: " I know it is sure nerve wracking when those IDPA targets get up and start popping rounds back at the competitors." shotar...you've been to tusco! i know you've seen the station that shoots nerf balls back at you (pneumatic fired) while you shoot. that's 'scarey' to us "civilians"!
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Really? Some place has a setup like that? Cool.
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Link Posted: 11/15/2002 3:12:06 PM EDT
Either that or those crazy Cubans got some 'splainin' to do!! [img]http://images.usatoday.com/life/gallery/lucy/ricky-ricardo.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 3:22:20 PM EDT
The Miami police are better shots than any I have heard in the past from other large cities. Sounds like they have their act together. With any luck other departments will follow their training practices as this is the only time that I have heard these kinds of statistics where the officers did not shoot large numbers of innocent bystanders. They must be doing something right. THISISME
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 6:08:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar:
First of all, what is it that makes a cope a non-civilian? I thought we had cleared this one up ages ago.
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You are correct, we did clear this up ages ago. We agreed to follow webster's dictionary when in disagreement on word definitions. Websters specifically exempts sworn public safety officials, ie Police, fire, EMS, from the definition of " civillian ".
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Strange, when I go here [url]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=civilian[/url]: I find this: civilian adj : associated with or performed by civilians as contrasted with the military; "civilian clothing" "civilian life" [ant: military] n : a nonmilitary citizen [ant: serviceman] Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
I know it is sure nerve wracking when those IDPA targets get up and start popping rounds back at the competitors. [:D]
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You're right, the stress of competition is nothing compared to the stress of being shot at or having had a gun pointed at you (for me, once on the former, twice on the latter). So you've made my point even MORE valid; "SWAT" cops that can't hit shit durring IDPA are even less likely to hit shit when they really need to. Or are you saying that they will somehow magically become ace marksmen when bullets are flying back at them? To be clear here, I'm not bashing cops. I have met and shot with many cops who are gun-nuts and practice both because they see the value in it in relation to their job, and also because they enjoy it as a hobby. I have never said anything like "all cops can't shoot" or "all cops suck", but in the two years I worked selling guns and police supplies, I would say maybe 10% of the LE types could hit the broad side of a barn or do 30 pushups or run 50 yards without getting winded. The issue is that cops are no better or worse than everyone else when it comes to job performance. However, just like EMT's and doctors, they must be held to a higher standard, since the potential consequences are much graver. If a secretary forgets to send a memo, someone won't get their computer fixed on time. If a cop can't shoot, some poor bystander may wind up dead. Unfortunately many of the cops that I dealt with at the store had not more work ethic than my current secretary.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 6:38:19 AM EDT
Maybe the heat and humidity causes their firearms to expand or it affects the trajectory of the slugs.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 6:57:03 AM EDT
i'd like to see some gun toting criminal stand 4 feet away from a reporter (with a gun and trained standing in for the police officer) and let them go at it. my dad (HPD ret.) said that most gun fights can happen within 4 feet of eachother and no one gets hit. those reporters need to get a life.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 7:10:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC: those reporters need to get a life.
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Why? While none of us like it when the media exposes things that we aren't proud of, or when they get important facts wrong, or when they report things in a biases manner, I don't understand how that applies here. No one can know all things all the time for themselves. If it weren't for reporters, we wouldn't know the status of the Iraq/UN bullshit, that the Repubs. got a majority.....I could go on and on. If in fact this report is true, then I don't see how your statement holds up. You may not like what they have to say, and you may feel that their report is anti-LEO (and therefore somehow derogatory toward your father), but I for one like it when facts (if that's what these are) like these come to light.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 9:59:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: 200 hits out of 1300 shots? That's around 15%... IIRC, that's about average for police shootings. Anybody have exact figures, and who does it any better? ...
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To the best of my knowledge, no one keeps national figures. FWIW, my copy of the NYPD’s 1992 Firearms Discharge Report lists MOS (member of service) hits against perpetrators as 23% for that year. I don’t have anything more recent. I’ve heard rumors that the figure has gone down for some agencies due to the adoption of semi-auto pistols. I read in a gun rag a few years ago that LAPD SWAT has a hit record of about 80%. I have no idea if that’s true; it sounds pretty high to me. I’ll agree that most LEO’s don’t get enough firearms training – no argument on that. However, the bottom line is that when someone is energetically trying to put you in a body bag, your sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, etc., can go out the window!! I’m continually amazed that “cardboard shooters” have such difficulty understanding that.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 10:50:34 AM EDT
Yeah, it's hell when the targets shoot back. Shooting paper is one thing, the real world is a little different.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 11:05:16 AM EDT
Only hitting the target 200 out of 1,300 times is horrible!
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About 20 years ago I read an article (in Amercan Rifleman, I think) about fire under stress. The author offer the following stats: 1) In WWI 10,000 rounds of small arms were expended for every enemy casualty. 2) During the Korean War the number rose to 50,000 per casualty. 2) In Vietnam it was almost 250,000. Obviously, a percentage of those nembers are due to the proliferation of automatic weapons. Eddie
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 4:00:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rjroberts: Yeah, it's hell when the targets shoot back. Shooting paper is one thing, the real world is a little different.
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I'm glad to see that you agree with me too. If you can't hit the paper in the relatively safe setting of competition, how on earth are you ever going to hit something that shoots back? Its good to know that you and Shotar agree with me on this one.
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 4:19:01 AM EDT
Far be it for me to understand the stress a LEO is under when being shot at. I would expect his hit % to decline under fire. However, many of the cops I have shot with do very poorly when shooting paper and under no stress. If it is true we revert to training when under stress they will be in deep doo doo! I don't want to see the cops draw a gun unless VERY necessary but when they fire a round, I want to see a perp go down. If they can't hit paper, how can I expect them to become good marksman under fire? Better training and REQUIRED PRACTICE would go a long way toward solving this.
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 4:23:25 AM EDT
They've seen too many Miami Vice re-runs.
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 4:25:29 AM EDT
I'm lucky to work for a department that has simunitions....out of 50rds I hit the 5 ring 50 out of 50 every time I qualify from 3ft to 50 yrds...I practice a lot and train a lot but most of you are right on my shift there are only three officers including myself that take firearms training seriously...part of the problem is that we are only required to fire once every 6 months the other problem is We are Department of the Army(defense, its a semantic thing)"CIVILIAN"police officers and we have to turn in our weapons at the end of each shift so even the new officers that want to train don't own personal firearms....... back to the simunitions we did an experiment about 2 months ago where me and another expert shooter had Beretta m-9's(with simunition barrels) and three 15rd mags of simunitions we started at 15 yrds with no cover we opened fire at each other both of us moving out of the way in the end we both eat each other me in the left arm him in his left kidney area I had fired 11 shots and he had fired 10......we did this too more times once a 7 yrds and once at three feet....the movement cause a hell of a difference. at 7 yrds we both fired 8rds before getting an impact and at three feet it was three rds each....I think we were shooting at about 12-15% in police type shootings like this its hard for me to see one shot one kill bullS&!T....but then again just because I qualify expert only twice a yr I don't consider myself an expert. I shoot about once every ten days.
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 4:26:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade Miami police fired about 1,300 bullets at suspects in those 12 years, and missed more than 1,100 times.
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You've never heard of [b]Suppressive Fire[/b]??
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 4:34:45 AM EDT
I wanted to add that it does come down to training other then swat type teams most police shooting trraing is from a non-mobile position. no lateral movment ...hell we arnt even allowed to draw from the holster we have to start with the Army's up and down range position.
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 5:22:10 AM EDT
All cops everywhere suck and cannot shoot, let's eat their children. [;)]
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 5:27:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2002 6:05:45 AM EDT by prk]
The Chief is resigning as of year-end. I have some problems with the "reporting", though. First of all, none of the reporters were the ones being shot at, while apprehending criminals. Hmmm. Then they look at 180 cases and focus on 33, saying, "A 12-YEAR DEATH TOLL 33 people killed under questionable circumstances" But, oops, maybe its not 33! Just a few lines down, they say, "All told, Miami officers shot and killed 33 people in those dozen years -- [b][u]11 under questionable circumstances[/b][/u]." (emphasis added) And we've already seen them complaining about how 1100 shots out of 1300 missed, but questions that are important to me remain unanswered: How many of the criminals WERE shot, just not killed? How many of those 180 shot-at suspects got away? Could it be that the Miami Herald didn't like the way the numbers came out, so decided they weren't important to the story? Guess what, there are no e-mail address given for the reporters or editors. The Knight-Ridder company seems to design their web site to make sure that there is no accountability on their "feedback", it's all done via the webserver, to no one in particular. I guess about 200 shots hit their intended target, or approximately 1 in 7 or better. Not great, but I'd like to see some reporters trying to do as well while trying to keep their sphincters shut. So 11 were killed out of 180 in shootings that the reporters called "questionable [to the reporters] circumstances". A little over 6%, in other words.
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 7:37:12 AM EDT
Norman74, Yea but what does your secretary look like?
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 8:50:10 AM EDT
in the interest of being nice, I'll say this about her, she's a really nice person.
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 9:21:54 AM EDT
A related link: [url]http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/4485019.htm[/url] These guys should have been relieved years ago. I'm a supporter of the police, but this just makes me sick. Apparently, the lives of bystanders means very little.
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