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Posted: 11/13/2002 7:28:52 AM EDT
I read the whole thread about the gamewarden and I don't think we ever settled this,can anyone say if you can or can't? I once had to do this exact thing and order a cop off my property,he didn't think he had to leave but his Lt. knew the law and told him to get off my property after I called the station. So whats the deal,can you order an LEO off your land if he has no right or warrant to be there?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:52:55 AM EDT
NO TRESPASSING signs work wonders... just point to it..
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:55:27 AM EDT
Yes, unless they have probable cause to be there. But in the case of a game warden, it was better to be nice, for future relations when hunting.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 8:05:41 AM EDT
It's always nice to be CIVIL towards LEOs. Aside from the VERY FEW of them that want to be the "big man", most of them usually have good reason (PC) to be where they are at almost any given time. If you see a cruiser or game warden pull-up into your driveway, don't jump to conclusions so fast. Maybe they want to alert you to to something going on on the neighborhood? Maybe it's a rookie trying to get-out and meet the people he works for in a rural area? Don't laugh, I have seen it done. However, you are correct in thinking that a LEO has no business rummaging through your property without a warrant or PC. On the other hand, it is VERY easy to find PC in almost any situation, especially when gunfire is involved.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 8:13:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Energizer: Yes, unless they have probable cause to be there. But in the case of a game warden, it was better to be nice, for future relations when hunting.
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As a rule I am always polite to everyone until there is a need to not be polite,in my case after I was done talking with the police officer he wanted to continue with some more questions,I told him we were done and goodnight,he insisted that I answer some more questions in relation to a neighbor. I told him again we were done and this time I closed the door,he knocked very loud with his night stick and I opened the door and asked him very politely to leave,he said he didn't have to,this time I closed the door and called the station and they told him to leave at once. I will say this ,he was pissed that I was not in awe of his police powers or that I had the nerve to end a conversation that had nothing to do me me in the first place.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 8:34:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: NO TRESPASSING signs work wonders... just point to it..
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Do some research on the "open fields" exception to the 4th amendment.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 8:58:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 9:03:59 AM EDT by FLGreg]
I was trying to stay out of the conversation as ETH had perhaps the most coherent post on the subject in the other thread. People who do not own woodland property of any magnitude are missing the point here. Wildlife is considered [i]res nullius[/i], the property of no one. Here in Florida, (and I suppose every other state) the animals are placed under the "public trust" of the State. That is why, for example, one needs a state permit to hunt deer. Since wild animals have neither the intelligence nor ability to distinguish property lines, they go anywhere. It is for this reason that state statutes give the power to it's wildlife officers to "enter upon any land or waters of the state for performance of their lawful duties...such entry shall not constitute a trespass." [FL Statute 372.07(1)] Section 2(a) of the same chapter allows FWC personnel to "Go upon all premises, posted or otherwise..." . Additionally, sworn personnel of the FWC are "fully constituted police officers as provided under Florida Statute 372.07." This gives them the authority to enforce all laws of the state, not just those relating to resource enforcement. They are also cross-deputized to enforce federal fisheries and wildlife laws. They also provide "general law enforcement patrol in rural, semi-wilderness, wilderness, and off-shore areas where no other law enforcement agencies routinely patrol." There may be a case to be made at what point the FWC ceases to be a wildlife officer and becomes a law enforcement officer (in the case of the situation in the other thread). I believe that the FWC officer has to actually see the crime being committed to make an arrest. As for a regular, local LEO - I believe the normal constitutional protections are still inforce for a property owner. So get off my property unless you are a FWC officer or have a search warrant. I hope this answers the question once and for all.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 9:03:45 AM EDT
Well of course we got answers. We found out that the most powerful JBT's in the country are game wardens. We found out that because of the "open field" ruling, your private property really is'nt. We found out that anyone who objects to these types of actions are dismissed as ignorant, tin foil hat wearing rubes who just need to understand that these guys are only there to help us and don't mean us any harm. We found out that too many of us will accept the slow, deliberate suspension of our rights as long as they don't go too far.........this time.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 9:26:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jrzy: As a rule I am always polite to everyone until there is a need to not be polite,in my case after I was done talking with the police officer he wanted to continue with some more questions,I told him we were done and goodnight,he insisted that I answer some more questions in relation to a neighbor. I told him again we were done and this time I closed the door,he knocked very loud with his night stick and I opened the door and asked him very politely to leave,he said he didn't have to,this time I closed the door and called the station and they told him to leave at once. I will say this ,he was pissed that I was not in awe of his police powers or that I had the nerve to end a conversation that had nothing to do me me in the first place.
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It sounds like you did everything exactly right. You didn't stand there and have a pissing contest with the officer, you politely insisted that he leave your property and when he didn't, you called his superiors and [b]they[/b] insisted that he leave. Most importantly, you kept a level head. There are a lot of internet-trained lawyers who will stand nose-to-nose with an officer screaming about their rights and will eventually do something that [b]can[/b] get then arrested. Kudos jrzy!
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 9:43:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Well of course we got answers. We found out that the most powerful JBT's in the country are game wardens. We found out that because of the "open field" ruling, your private property really is'nt. We found out that anyone who objects to these types of actions are dismissed as ignorant, tin foil hat wearing rubes who just need to understand that these guys are only there to help us and don't mean us any harm. We found out that too many of us will accept the slow, deliberate suspension of our rights as long as they don't go too far.........this time.
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Well a couple of points. I would say that the "most powerful JBT" would Be Federal Marshals, followed by Park Rangers (not joking here, you ever looked at the authorities a PR has while in a park? If not you might want to, normal search and seizure goes right out the window when you cross a park boundary) Then Game Wardens.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 9:44:25 AM EDT
My $.02 worth What constitutes probable cause for searching a vehicle may be different for a state cop and a game warden. For example if a game warden sees a fishing pole in the back of an automobile he may have probable cause to search the vehicle. The same fishing pole however does not give the state trooper probable cause to search the vehicle. My uncle, who was a game warden in Texas, tells me that when the state cops wanted to search a car for which they had no probable cause, they would call him to come search the car if there was something present that gave a game warden probable cause to search. Kinda nasty huh?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 10:27:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 10:37:42 AM EDT by legalese77]
?? a fishing pole constitutes probable cause? I would have to say that the mere possession of a fishing pole would never constitute probable cause. The whole phrase of course being something more like "probable cause to believe that a crime is being, has been or is about to be committed." Mere possession of a fishing pole is not an indicator of a crime. It doesn't even necessary give you probable cause to believe that the person in possession of the pole used it to fish which of course is not a crime in of itself (that I'm aware). Therefore, it would also not give you probable cause to believe that the fishing pole had been, was in the process of or was about to be used in a crime (for instance, fishing without a license). Now, if the person possessed the pole on lands upon which it is illegal to fish, that might be another story altogether. Vehicles are a whole 'nother ball of wax. Probable cause is not required to search a vehicle. The standard is a less demanding "reasonable suspicion" under the "Terry" doctrine. If a State Trooper has adequate reason to stop your vehicle (a minor traffic offense) he also has plenary authority to conduct a search of the passenger compartment (usually justified by safety reasons). He may need PC or a warrant supported by PC to search the trunk or other locked compartments not accessible to a person in the passenger compatment such as a truck box, etc., but I fail to see how that could be provided (under most circumstances) by mere possession of a fishing pole. Edited to add: even for a game warden who, like any other LEO is subject to the strictures of the U.S.Const. requiring "probable cause" for most searches and seizures. I don't dispute that there may be times when a warden may have PC and another officer may not have PC because the warden can enforce laws not enforceable by other officials. However, the standards for PC are set at a minimum by the Const. as interpreted and the minimums are applicable to all LEOS and those protections can be expanded by the States (not applicable to all LEOs) if the States so wish (to a degree as there are exceptions to everything). (edited again to correct clerical errors)
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:01:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 2:05:45 PM EDT by DevilsAdvocate]
Minnesota has a lot of boats. Water cops have had a tendancy to stop boaters and inspect (search) the boats with no PC, under the guise of "water safety". Last year, a gentleman filed suit against these unreasonable stops/searches/seizures and WON. STORY HERE...[url]www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/3721732.htm[/url] It will be different next year. The water cops now need PC to even ask you to stop. (Well, I HOPE it will be different next year}.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 4:02:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: I would say that the "most powerful JBT" would Be Federal Marshals, followed by Park Rangers (not joking here, you ever looked at the authorities a PR has while in a park? If not you might want to, normal search and seizure goes right out the window when you cross a park boundary) Then Game Wardens.
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So, U.S. Marshals are the most powerful JBTs? Are they really JBTs? And park Rangers are JBTs also? Damn sorry you feel that way.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 4:41:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 5:12:00 PM EDT by DScott]
Originally Posted By LE6920:
Originally Posted By Silence: I would say that the "most powerful JBT" would Be Federal Marshals, followed by Park Rangers (not joking here, you ever looked at the authorities a PR has while in a park? If not you might want to, normal search and seizure goes right out the window when you cross a park boundary) Then Game Wardens.
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So, U.S. Marshals are the most powerful JBTs? Are they really JBTs? And park Rangers are JBTs also? Damn sorry you feel that way.
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Don't worry, it's generally a lot of light and no heat for these "all LE are JBTs" guys... (edited for clarity...)
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 5:01:54 PM EDT
Even if LEO has no right to be there and even if LEO is trespassing, are you going to forcibly remove LEO from your property? Remember, you can't use deadly/lethal force. Good luck, and I hope that you don't slip and fall down the stairs at the station. [B)] No, I'm not LEO. But, I know a few.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 5:11:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By baxxx: Even if LEO has no right to be there and even if LEO is trespassing, are you going to forcibly remove LEO from your property? Remember, you can't use deadly/lethal force. [red]Good luck, and I hope that you don't slip and fall down the stairs at the station.[/red] [B)] [red]No, I'm not LEO. But, I know a few.[/red]
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Why would someone need "good luck" while in the care of our those who protect and serve.... are you implying that LEO's abuse people they have in custody ?? say it aint so.......
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