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Posted: 11/12/2002 7:02:50 PM EDT
I'm sure many of us are on the Ammoman's E-mail list for new specials. How many noticed this little gem.
We also got word for Hornady today. The TAP ammo is done for civilians.What we have left in 223 is it.We thought it might be true and was confirmed today.They turned down a $60,000 order from us for both calibers in TAP ammo.It's a sad day when the manufacturers cave on us.
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If this is true we need to let Hornady know this is very disappointing.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:06:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:25:50 PM EDT
TAP SCHMAP. I will file it with the black talon. Who needs it? My only question is will they pull them from the component market? My guess is no. Bob
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:29:10 PM EDT
75 grain TAP is just a match bullet load. You can load your own for cheaper. I'm sure they will still market the bullets to competition shooters. Maybe I'll try 77 grainers from the green box instead. [}:D]
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:31:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15forfun: TAP SCHMAP. I will file it with the black talon. Who needs it? My only question is will they pull them from the component market? My guess is no. Bob
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That is not the point. Who needs an AR15 anyway?? That is the same logic bolt gunners use when laws are passed against black rifles. I don't use Hornady TAP either but I do use other Hornady ammo. I just don't like being told that I am not "qualified" to buy their ammo because it is "designed for" police use. For those who care, here is some contact information I found on their website. 800-338-3220 Hornady Manufacturing Company Box 1848 Grand Island, NE 68802 webmaster@hornady.com
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:38:16 PM EDT
I agree, I also do not like to not be "qualified" to buy their crap either. Thanks for the contact info. I will be using it. Bob
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:41:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:45:35 PM EDT
Now that sucks...I just put in a order with Hornady for press parts. I was going to order the mechanical shell feeder. AND THE NEW TYPE OF aUTO POWDER FEEDER.Now I think I will just go and get a Dillion. Guess I will have to write to them first to explain why I can't buy the products. Thats a shame
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:01:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:12:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aggie1: For those who care, here is some contact information I found on their website. 800-338-3220 Hornady Manufacturing Company Box 1848 Grand Island, NE 68802 webmaster@hornady.com
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Well I guess I won't be buying anymore Hornady product. Don't people learn from others mistakes ?? They don't remember what happened to S&W.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:32:19 PM EDT
You are kidding, right?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:38:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tulsacmpshooter: You are kidding, right?
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Kidding about what?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:14:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 9:15:29 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Does anyone know what type of .223 ammo the "Beltway [s]terrorists[/s] snipers" were using on their kill crazy rampage? Might it have been....[i]Hornady TAP[/i] ??? Connect the dots!
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:18:12 PM EDT
Call it a hunch, but I am willing to bet it's another sort of "pre-emptive" move, like Winchester pulling the BT's before anyone could get to them, and Colt all but ending civilian sales. Hell, Colt won't even bother to submit samples and a testing fee for sale in California, and I can hardly say I blame them. Ever read the regs? They'll get worse on the first of the year.... Face it, it's too easy to get sued these days for someone else's stupidity, and I really have a hard time blaming them. I doubt they will DX components, non-specialty ammo, and presses and gear, as the liability just doesn't exist there like it does with ready-rolled ammo. "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." FFZ
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:33:44 PM EDT
I can see the online auctions now: "BANNED TAP ammo, get it while you still can" only $50 a box.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:19:23 PM EDT
Guess I'll give them a call tomorrow. This is BS!
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:54:33 PM EDT
Email sent: Dear Sir or Madame, I’ve just discovered that Hornady plans to no longer offer its line of TAP ammunition for “civilian” sales. This is a huge public relations error that will have a detrimental business result. This decision can only be based upon concerns of “political correctness” and NOT sound business practice (i.e. it’s rare that a venture limits its market in order to increase profits or gross sales). I urge you to reconsider this decision. Do not succumb to fear of liability over a product name. The shooting community needs seller, manufacturers, and consumers with the fortitude to persevere against the anti-gun onslaught we are currently facing; this cannot be accomplished by caving in to pressure, either real or perceived, to discontinue product lines just because of a name. As we all know there are any number of other bullet designs on the market that perform in a similar fashion to TAP ammo; therefore, the only justification for pulling the line would be a knee-jerk reaction, no doubt motivated by the MD “sniper” incident, similar to the infamous “Black Talon” ordeal of several years ago. Stand up and be proud of TAP ammo. Market its various other qualities that can be realized by non-police shooters. Hell, change the name if you have to in order to keep the design on the market. But DO NOT CAVE to anti-gun pressures. It’s a slippery slope with no hope of return. Should Hornady continue with its plans to pull TAP from the market, I will no longer purchase Hornady products. I currently am very pleased with your line of 168gr. match bullets but WILL make the switch to Sierra should TAP be pulled from the civilian market; and I will similarly encourage my fellow shooters/reloaders to do the same. Sincerely,
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 11:30:18 PM EDT
More bullshit. Write them. Call them. Let them know your mind. I'll not buy Hornady until I hear different. And they will know why.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 11:30:29 PM EDT
I'm done buying their products. I don't have time for companies with no spine.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:03:44 AM EDT
Any company who believes a certain class of people have more of a right to self defense that another class, should be boycotted out of existence.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:14:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 12:15:23 AM EDT by USNJoe]
Well I for one an glad to see that the pressures we at HCI have been placing on manufacturers has finally had an effect. We do not want to ban ammunition for hunting in .177 caliber, there is no need for this [b]T[/b]actical [b]A[/b]rmor [b]P[/b]iercing ammunition to be sold to anyone but the military and the police. Oh, and to Sara Brady for her sons rifle. So we at HCI and the great democRATic party want to thank the Hornady for caving in to pressure. You have nothing to worry about...for now.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 6:58:39 AM EDT
BTT for day crew.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 11:06:21 AM EDT
what crap.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 11:14:48 AM EDT
Wimps
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 11:35:36 AM EDT
Who needs them? If true, bankrupt them. Let another company fill their shoes. Same as S&W.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:09:18 PM EDT
While we're at it, let’s add Winchester to the boycott list. After all, they will only sell their 127gr +P+ Ranger ammo (arguably the best defensive load ever made in 9mm) to LE. I guess Orwell was right... Some animals [i]are[/i] more equal than other animals!!! [pissed]
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:26:32 PM EDT
All of the major ammo manufacturers have certain loads or product lines that they restrict the sales of. If you are boycotting Hornady over this, then you need to also boycott winchester, federal, & remington, or else you are a hipocrite.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:43:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 12:45:48 PM EDT by magnum_99]
Originally Posted By AR15fan: All of the major ammo manufacturers have certain loads or product lines that they restrict the sales of. If you are boycotting Hornady over this, then you need to also boycott winchester, federal, & remington, or else you are a hipocrite.
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We all know of the debacle over Black Talon/Ranger SXT ammo. I avoid buying Winchester's products (and they sell shooting rests made in China for God's sake!). What lines does Federal restrict? Enlighten me here. Hydrashok and PDP is readily available. What else is there? And we all know Remington's PSS/LTR is a "LE Only" item but there is a distinction to the Hornady situation. Remington only sells the PSS to its LE stocking dealers but they in turn are not prohibited, by any agreement with Remington or otherwise so far as I know, from in turn selling those riles to either civilians or other dealers who then sell to the public at large. Hornady is cutting off its non-LE approved dealers at the source thereby artificially limiting its market for no other purpose than to appease the chicken little liberals; very similiar, at least in effect, to Winchester's decision to not market BT to the public. I don't think it is hypocritical to say, "no more" with respect to Hornady. Put pressure on them; it worked with S&W.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:48:42 PM EDT
I just got off the phone with Hornaday, this is how it went: (First call to technical) Me: You have any idea why you stopped sales of TAP to civilians? Them: We never sold TAP to civilians. It is a law enforcement round only. Me: How come I was able to buy TAP ammo then. Them: I don't know, you would have to call sales. Why wyould you want to shoot TAP ammo anyways? Our V-Max line is just as good if not better than the TAP line. Me: Then why sell TAP ammo? Them: It's a special law enforecement round. Me: You just said that V-Max is just as good if not better. Them: Ummm...well, yes it is. The TAP ammo comes in special packaging and it is different. Me: OK, if your TAP ammo is as good if not worse than the V-Max ammo why won't you sell it to civilians. Them: Ummm, you should speak to sales. Me: OK. Sales: Me: How come you stopped sales of TAP ammo to civilians. Them: We never sold it to civilians. It is meant for law enforcement only. Me: Then how come I coud buy TAP ammo when I am not LE? Them: This is one reason why we stopped selling TAP ammo to certain distributors. They were not controlling who they sold the TAP ammo to. Me: Didn't you know all along. Them: All we did was to tighten up our sales policy of TAP ammo. Why do you ask? Me: I read it on the internet, I wanted to verify the facts. Them: Why would you want to shoot TAP ammo anyways. Our V-max line is just as good if not better than the TAP. Me: Then why would continue to sell TAP ammo if it is not as good as the V-Max. Them: TAP ammo is for LE. It is marketed for LE. Me: So you are saying that V-Max is TAP ammo. Them: In certain cases. Me: So then you have stopped sales of TAP ammo to people who were reselling it to civilians because you were not making as much money on the V-Max. Them: No. Me: So then you stopped selling TAP ammo to people who were reselling it to civilians because you caved in to the anti-gunners and political correctness. Them: Well....no.....We still sell V-Max ammo that is every bit as good as the TAP ammo. Me: Wait, you said that the V-Max ammo is as good if not better. Now you are changing your story. Them: Where did you get this information about the ending of TAP sales. Me: From the internet. Them: Oh, ok. Me: So in all reality you can't tell me why you stopped sales of TAP ammo to people who were reselling it to civilians. I will then take that answer to mean that Hornady as a company caved in to either the anit-gunners or Hornady wants to make more money off of V-maz sales from civilians. Them: No, that's not the case. Me: Please explain it to me then. Them: Sir, I have. bla bla bla bla (I hung up the phone at this point) Our friends. NOT!
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 1:02:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 1:03:10 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 1:07:00 PM EDT
Sounds like Hornady is spraying on some lawsuit repellant.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 1:46:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 1:47:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 6:54:27 PM EDT by cnatra]
Originally Posted By SWS: Sounds like Hornady is spraying on some lawsuit repellant.
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Nice job USNJoe!! [beer] I think this must be a reaction to the current DC area sniper & their lawyers concerns over liability. I guess I empathize with their dilemma but I don't like the philosophy behind the cahnge. As far as I know only Winchester has voluntarily restricted sales of certain ammo to civilians. I'm not aware of Remington pr Federal doing this. (Is American Eagle Federal ?) As far as being a hypocrite I think the point here is Hornady is being a hypocrite by caving to the hypocritcal anti-gun lobby & restricting the sale of one type of ammo that's marketed as "LE" & yet still selling essentially the same product in a different box. Is that a smart marketing move on their part?? OR are they just dancing the politically correct dance to mitigate possible negative press & potential lawsuits?? All of the above maybe?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:48:24 PM EDT
USNJOE, I only wish you would have said to that salesperson at Hornday the following.......Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive! E-mail sent: Dear Hornady: I have read that your firm intends to suspend sales of your TAP ammunition to civilians. First off, is this true? If so, what is your motivation for doing so? I sincerely hope that this information is untrue. I would hate to think a fine firm such as yours would cave to political pressure. Regard, Gary Ugh...I smell another Ruger or S & W comming
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:56:38 PM EDT
Isnt it a tax thing, if TAP was always LE only? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they pay less, or no tax, on sales of LE-only ammo. I would think that if they knowingly are selling to people that dont have large LE distribution they could be hit over the head with a tax violation?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:09:55 PM EDT
I posted this on the ammo board about a month ago. I was told by distributors like Ellett bros and Walter Craig that they would no longer be selling TAP. I bought 20 boxes that one had on closeout. Let Hornady know how you feel. I'm LE but it's not right.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:16:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 3:35:33 PM EDT by Aggie1]
Originally Posted By Silence: Isnt it a tax thing, if TAP was always LE only? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they pay less, or no tax, on sales of LE-only ammo. I would think that if they knowingly are selling to people that dont have large LE distribution they could be hit over the head with a tax violation?
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This is a valid point. If Hornady would respond accordingly with a simple, logical reason then we could move on. They haven't done so yet. Some have made points that all ammo manufacturers restrict certain parts of their lines and that is for the reason mentioned above. I am just tired of the fact that everytime some clown does something bad with a gun, we pay the price. There is no reason why Hornady could not continue to sell the same ammo to civilians that it does to law enforcement. Edited to add link to Ammoman's thread [url]www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=154438&w=activePop[/url] So which is it. Is the ammo the same or is Troy correct in saying that the loads are different?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:37:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By magnum_99:[red]Remington only sells the PSS to its LE stocking dealers[/red] but they in turn are not prohibited, by any agreement with Remington or otherwise so far as I know, from in turn selling those riles to either civilians or other dealers who then sell to the public at large. [red]Hornady is cutting off its non-LE approved dealers at the source[/red] thereby artificially limiting its market for no other purpose than to appease the chicken little liberals; very similiar, at least in effect, to Winchester's decision to not market BT to the public
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What's the difference between the red statements?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 4:06:40 PM EDT
Thing is, even though its LE only, its still legal to own, but harder to get, just like the PSS. Every manufacturer has their "special" rounds that they have to re-label or slightly change a bit so the law enforcement community will think they are special and above us... I want to know why we can't have ammo that is stampped Law Enforcement Only-- especially if there are no illegal restrictions on it, like steel core... I remember reading a few years back that Federal made Hydra-Shok slugs for 12ga shotguns-- why is that LE-only???
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 4:09:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: Isnt it a tax thing, if TAP was always LE only? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they pay less, or no tax, on sales of LE-only ammo. I would think that if they knowingly are selling to people that dont have large LE distribution they could be hit over the head with a tax violation?
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This would explain why some ammo is identical to LE-Only ammo, yet is labled differently...
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 6:14:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 6:15:09 PM EDT by Energizer]
FYI: Here's the Federal Hydra-Shok slugs for shotguns I was talking about... some have sabots [:D] P151SS 12 / 3 / 76 1 / 438 Hydra-Shok Sabot HP Mag. P154SS 12 / 2 3/4 / 70 1 / 438 Hydra-Shok Sabot HP Max. P207SS 20 / 3 / 76 5/8 / 275 Hydra-Shok Sabot HP Mag. P203SS 20 / 2 3/4 / 70 5/8 / 275 Hydra-Shok Sabot HP Max. P127LRS** 12 / 2 3/4 / 70 1 / 438 Hydra-Shok HP Max. P127RS 12 / 2 3/4 / 70 1 / 438 Hydra-Shok HP Max. Federal's website ([url]www.federalcartridge.com/ammocat20.asp[/url]) has a lot of comparison data on these...
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:07:23 PM EDT
Federal does make its own LE flavor. Federal Tactical. I carry the 40 S&W 165. It's a Sierra 165 JHP. I think corbon is also a Sierra slug too but can't confirm. All companies have or do restrict ammo some just enforce it better. Examples: Rem. Golden Sabre's Speer gold dots Win. Ranger talons Sierra doesn't make their own ammo just components but is banned by affiliation to Fed. et. al. So if you guys are all gonna boycott them too, what ever remaining stockpiles you might want to get rid of you can ship to me. Also as more companies get boycotted and go out of business and we don't have any ammo companies left, well, I guess we all better learn how to throw rocks reel good. Let HCI try to stop us from that, it'll show them!
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:23:44 PM EDT
(Suspiciously raising one eyebrow) Anyone know what cartridges or bullets were used by the beltway sniper(s)?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:31:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 7:34:02 PM EDT by Spade]
Originally Posted By mcsd2598: All companies have or do restrict ammo some just enforce it better. Examples: Rem. Golden Sabre's
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My box of 230 grain .45 Auto Golden Saber's doesn't have "LEO only" or anything like that written on them.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:32:28 PM EDT
Screw them. How is the Black Hills loaded compared to the TAP? Lighter charge?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:57:40 PM EDT
The Federal Nyclads have disappeared in a similar fashion. I emailed them first they said they were LEO only and then they said that they had quit making them. These companies are in business to make money. Dennis Jenkins
Originally Posted By Aggie1: I'm sure many of us are on the Ammoman's E-mail list for new specials. How many noticed this little gem.
We also got word for Hornady today. The TAP ammo is done for civilians.What we have left in 223 is it.We thought it might be true and was confirmed today.They turned down a $60,000 order from us for both calibers in TAP ammo.It's a sad day when the manufacturers cave on us.
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If this is true we need to let Hornady know this is very disappointing.
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Link Posted: 11/13/2002 9:07:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407:
Originally Posted By magnum_99:[red]Remington only sells the PSS to its LE stocking dealers[/red] but they in turn are not prohibited, by any agreement with Remington or otherwise so far as I know, from in turn selling those riles to either civilians or other dealers who then sell to the public at large. [red]Hornady is cutting off its non-LE approved dealers at the source[/red] thereby artificially limiting its market for no other purpose than to appease the chicken little liberals; very similiar, at least in effect, to Winchester's decision to not market BT to the public
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What's the difference between the red statements?
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The difference is what comes after the red letters--that's where the real explanation of my reasoning lies. Where Remington apparently either cannot, or chooses not to, strictly control the PSS/LTR line, Hornady's decision to do just that IS the distinction. It's one thing to play the little "LE Only" BS game for the benefit of nosy anti-gunners, all the while winking and nodding about indirect civilian sales or re-sales, and quite another to directly limit, at the source, and make it a part of your overall marketing and distribution scheme (while incorporating the terms into contracts) to stringently control the sales of these otherwise legal and practically fungible products. Damn it, I didn't know Nyclad had been pulled and restricted. I wanted to try some in my G19.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 8:28:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By magnum_99: Where Remington apparently either cannot, or chooses not to, strictly control the PSS/LTR line, Hornady's decision to do just that IS the distinction. It's one thing to play the little "LE Only" BS game for the benefit of nosy anti-gunners, all the while winking and nodding about indirect civilian sales or re-sales, and quite another to directly limit, at the source, and make it a part of your overall marketing and distribution scheme (while incorporating the terms into contracts) to stringently control the sales of these otherwise legal and practically fungible products.
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I agree 100%. And if the TAP ammo is just the civilian ammo in another wrapper as Steve at Hornady says, It makes them even more elitist and horseshit in my opinion. Pit
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 3:16:34 PM EDT
Here is the response I received from Steve at Hornday today. For what it's worth. [b][i]We don't quite know where all of this is coming from so suddenly, but the difference between TAP and our "civilian" ammo is the wrapper. Please tell your friends and update the web site/forum that's promoting this. They are way off base. SteveH[/b][/i] Regards, Gary
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 3:21:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By magnum_99: What lines does Federal restrict? Enlighten me here. Hydrashok and PDP is readily available. What else is there?
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Winchester, Remington, and federal all make [b]+P+[/b] ammunition, usually 9mm 115Gn JHP, which they voluntarily restrict to their Govt customers. Black Hills makes a 100Gn 5.56mm that they restict to the US military. Almost ever ammo manufacturer has voluntarily restricted products.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 8:40:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mcsd2598: All companies have or do restrict ammo some just enforce it better. Examples: Rem. Golden Sabre's Speer gold dots
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I have never seen either of the above ammo marked LE only & not only have I purchased boxes & boxes of it I can easily go get more at the local sporting goods store or gun shop.
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