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Posted: 11/12/2002 12:15:01 PM EDT
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,70061,00.html[/url] Pay close attention to the following paragraph: "Also involved in the court's considerations will be information about people who bought multiple weapons, [b]which is kept in another ATF database[/b]. The government refuses to reveal names from that database as well." Under what law allows the ATF to keep names of people who buy multiple guns?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:23:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:31:09 PM EDT
I get bad vibes sometimes. Thanks to AR15.com I am able to associate with people like me and see there is hope.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:33:53 PM EDT
How would they know this? If you buy 1 or 4 or 8 guns at the same time, only one background check is done and the 4473s supposedly never leave the shop.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:38:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kroagnon: [url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,70061,00.html[/url] Pay close attention to the following paragraph: "Also involved in the court's considerations will be information about people who bought multiple weapons, [b]which is kept in another ATF database[/b]. The government refuses to reveal names from that database as well." Under what law allows the ATF to keep names of people who buy multiple guns?
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Part of GCA 68' - Multible sale of Pistol & Revolvers. Amended by Brady - there are like 4 copies of the form you have to deal with, one goes to loacl law enforcement also.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:43:37 PM EDT
I have purchased eight firearms all at the same time at the same gun shop and have purchased four or more on more than one occasion so I’m sure I’m on the list. THISISME
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:44:56 PM EDT
just great
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:52:17 PM EDT
This relates to the purchase of more than one handgun from the same FFL within a 5 day period. The FFL is required to submit all the information to the ATF.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 1:05:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 1:15:41 PM EDT by libertyof76]
According to 18USC44 923g:
(3)(A) Each licensee shall prepare a [blue]report of multiple sales[/blue] or other dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of, at one time or during any five consecutive business days, [blue]two or more pistols, or revolvers[/blue], or any combination of pistols and revolvers totalling two or more, to an unlicensed person. [blue]The report shall be prepared on a form specified by the Secretary and forwarded to the office specified thereon and to the department of State police or State law enforcement agency[/blue] of the State or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction in which the sale or other disposition took place, not later than the close of business on the day that the multiple sale or other disposition occurs. (B) Except in the case of forms and contents thereof regarding a purchaser who is prohibited by subsection (g) or (n) of section 922 of this title from receipt of a firearm, the department of State police or State law enforcement agency or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction shall not disclose any such form or the contents thereof to any person or entity, and shall destroy each such form and any record of the contents thereof no more than 20 days from the date such form is received. No later than the date that is 6 months after the effective date of this subparagraph, and at the end of each 6-month period thereafter, the department of State police or State law enforcement agency or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction shall certify to the Attorney General of the United States that no disclosure contrary to this subparagraph has been made and that all forms and any record of the contents thereof have been destroyed as provided in this subparagraph.
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Link Posted: 11/12/2002 1:26:34 PM EDT
Well, I don't have to worry about this one. I don't know if I should be happy or sad. Happy that I've avoided one list. Sad that I can afford to buy only one gun at a time.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 1:35:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By medicmandan: I guess I'm on that list by now. Especially after this year.
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Yep, if you have picked up multiple firearms on the same day or within a five day period, you are on multiple lists.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 1:52:20 PM EDT
The ATF also has a database containing the names of people that spend more than $20 a week on birth control devices.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:04:02 PM EDT
It shouldn't be news to anyone here that the ATF/FBI has you on a list wether you have bought one at a time or multiple purchases within 5 days. If they have any info relating to a 4473, they DO NOT get rid of it...EVER...yada yada yada, so it's illegal for them to do. Big deal. They still keep it. When they go to a dealer and sift through his 4473s, they are only looking for the TYPE of pistol or long gun, along with serial numbers. When the FFL closes or loses his license, ATF gets ALL the 4473s that dealer has been saving since he received his license. Think I'm full of shit? Too bad.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:10:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: If they have any info relating to a 4473, they DO NOT get rid of it...EVER...yada yada yada, so it's illegal for them to do. Big deal. They still keep it. When they go to a dealer and sift through his 4473s, they are only looking for the TYPE of pistol or long gun, along with serial numbers. When the FFL closes or loses his license, ATF gets ALL the 4473s that dealer has been saving since he received his license. Think I'm full of shit? Too bad.
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Yes I think you're full of shit, but that's for another thread. [;)] Actually, I think they are required to keep the 4473's for either 20 or 30 years at which point they are free to destroy them, eat them, whatever. So technically, they don't have to keep them forever.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:18:05 PM EDT
why In the hell would the ATF do that??? another law that makes no sence... so now there saying criminals ussually use more than one gun at the same time at the same crime? Does it take more that one gun to commit a crime....? Im sorry but those boys over at the ATF play way to much Bond on N64... double RCP90s anyone?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:20:18 PM EDT
The good, kind-hearted ATF breaks the law? No, it cannot be! Lies I tell ya!
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:27:58 PM EDT
Are you all dumb or what? When you buy a fire arm, who do you think the ffl is talking to on the phone. And the guy on the other end is putting everything on the computer. It is simple. They know what you bought when and where.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:28:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:33:50 PM EDT
Rendell is Pro-gun! He wants to limit a buyer to one gun a month therefore circumventing the special ATF database. Wow!
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:46:53 PM EDT
PonyBoy... You're right...They only have to keep them for 20 years...That's a minimum of 20 ATF visits to each FFL...Is that enough time to record anything they see fit to record? LOL
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:11:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Actually, I think they are required to keep the 4473's for either 20 or 30 years at which point they are free to destroy them, eat them, whatever. So technically, they don't have to keep them forever.
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It is 10 years and a FFL may destroy the record. The above is true for multiple HANDGUN purchases only. So buy your handguns 5 days apart and you are fine. You can buy 20 AR15s on the same day and fill out a single 4473. There is no difference between 20 AR15s and 1 pump shotgun. The background agency has no idea what it being purchased. You tell them only handgun or long gun. Quantity isn't a factor UNLESS it is handguns. This information is true and correct and anyone who thinks different has NEVER been in the gun business.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:16:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Falcon2: Are you all dumb or what? When you buy a fire arm, who do you think the ffl is talking to on the phone. And the guy on the other end is putting everything on the computer. It is simple. They know what you bought when and where.
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Come buy a AR15 or FAL from me. IF at any time I describe the manufacture or model to the background agency IT IS FREE. HOWEVER, if all I give them is your: Name DOB Race Sex SSN (optional) Declaration of citizenship and describe the firearm ONLY as "longun" then I get to charge you double, ok? Clearly you are a expert and here is a chance for your knowledge on this subject to earn you a FREE firearm.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:43:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FL_BOY:
Originally Posted By medicmandan: I guess I'm on that list by now. Especially after this year.
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Yep, if you have picked up multiple firearms on the same day or within a five day period, you are on multiple lists.
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Only applies to handguns, according to the regulation that [b]libertyof76[/b] cited.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:16:38 PM EDT
I think one of the reasons for them doing this is to check up and make sure people arn't selling guns to other people (criminals and regular people) for profit. Plus If they noticed that hand guns that keep getting bought from an FFL by the same guy keep ending up in the hands of criminals that have been caught, then the guy is selling them possiblyt illegally(depending on your state)
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:29:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 9:33:29 PM EDT by DevilsAdvocate]
It is 10 years and a FFL may destroy the record. The above is true for multiple HANDGUN purchases only. [red]Nope..20 years.[/red] So buy your handguns 5 days apart and you are fine. You can buy 20 AR15s on the same day and fill out a single 4473. There is no difference between 20 AR15s and 1 pump shotgun. The background agency has no idea what it being purchased. You tell them only handgun or long gun. Quantity isn't a factor UNLESS it is handguns. [red]Wrong. An "assault weapon" is considered a pistol/handgun when doing a NICS check..Why? Because you have to be 21 yo to buy one. So, 20 ARs=20 handguns. [/red] This information is true and correct and anyone who thinks different has NEVER been in the gun business. [red]The ATF would beg to differ.[/red]
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:34:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 9:52:37 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
DA, it is really funny when people try and tell a FFL how background checks are done. You are a complete moron. But tell ya what. Feel free to come down and buy a AR15 or FAL. If the background agency asks for make or model IT'S FREE. If they don't I charge double. PS. Did I mention you are a idiot? BTW. Concerning Multiple Sales of Handguns: [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm[/url] (F18) How many copies of the ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, must be completed and what becomes of each copy? [Back] ATF Form 3310.4 must be completed in triplicate (3 copies). The original is sent to ATF's National Tracing Center by FAX at 1-877-283-0288 or by mail to Box 1061, Falling Waters, West Virginia 25419-1061. [b]A copy is to be sent to the designated state police or the local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction where the sale took place.[/b] The remaining copy is to be retained in the records of the dealer and held [b]for not less than 5 years. [27 CFR 178.126a, 178.129] [/b] OK, you are only partially a moron. Seems last year when they changed the 4473 (after 9-11) they DOUBLED the time required to maintain them from 10 to 20 years.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:40:01 PM EDT
Wrong. An "assault weapon" is considered a pistol when doing a NICS check..Why? Because you have to be 21 yo to buy one. So, 20 ARs= 20 pistols.
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Don't know who originally posted this, but I think you are quite wrong. At least as far as federal law. Maybe in your state it is this way or whatever. I don't know. Anyone trying to buy an assault weapon from a FFL better be LEO/Military. And I know you don't have to be 21 to buy a sporting rifle such as a bushmaster XM15 E2S. (Oh, yeah, I am 22, but when I bought my bushmaster first week of October, my FFL only said "long gun" when making the call, so I agree with Steyr, who is definately way more knowledgable than myself.)
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:40:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By extremeright101_: Thanks to AR15.com I am able to associate with people like me and see there is hope.
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So what agency are you with? BATF? FBI? Or are you a paid informant or agent provocateur from the ADL or SPLC? Feds o' plenty! Woo hoo!
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:43:28 PM EDT
Yes DA is wrong but I have traded and then bought two handguns on the same day,I then was put put on a multiple handguns form! So what that is just what I did,and if I would have had the money I would have bought 12 handguns on the same day! And I don't give a rats ass about having a check ran on me or providing paperwork for such a transfer! Bob [:D]
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:51:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: It is 10 years and a FFL may destroy the record. [red]Nope..20 years.[/red]
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It is 10 years.
You can buy 20 AR15s on the same day and fill out a single 4473. There is no difference between 20 AR15s and 1 pump shotgun. The background agency has no idea what it being purchased. You tell them only handgun or long gun. Quantity isn't a factor UNLESS it is handguns. [red]Wrong. An "assault weapon" is considered a pistol/handgun when doing a NICS check..Why? Because you have to be 21 yo to buy one. So, 20 ARs=20 handguns. [/red]
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An assault rifle is a NFA item covered under NFA rules (registration, tax stamp) but a semi auto rifle like an AR-15 is a long gun and definitely not processed as a handgun. I can't say how old you have to be to own a NFA item but you can own an AR-15/AK-47/etc at 18, wait period is 24 hours also VS 72 for a handgun. It's true that the ATF forms only tell if you buy a handgun or long gun. BUT need I remind you all of all the reports of ATF and FBI having names and makes and serial numbers of AR-15s and their owners from Maryland. How they got that info is anyone's guess, unless they harvested the info from a gun shop and that gun shop (illegally) turned over all their records.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:47:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 2:51:11 PM EDT by DevilsAdvocate]
ALL states REQUIRE you to be 21 years of age to buy a pistol (handgun) AND SOME states (for all extensive purposes)semi-auto "assault rifle". When calling NICS (at least here in MN) an AR is to be considered a "PISTOL" or Handgun for age verification purposes only...THEY DO NOT ASK for the make model or serial number. Steyr...I NEVER said they asked for the model, so your comments were not neccesary. If you buy a boltgun or non "AW", they say "long gun", if you buy a shotgun, they say "shotgun". From the ATF... """(P45) Do FFLs have to keep a copy of ATF Form 4473 if the transaction is denied or for some other reason is not completed? [Back] FFLs must keep a copy of each ATF Form 4473 for which a NICS check has been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was made. If the transfer is not made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. If the transfer is made, [red]the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 20 years after the date of the sale or disposition.[/red] Forms 4473 with respect to a transfer that did not take place must be separately maintained."""" Fine, call me all sorts of names. At least I have the curiosity to go find answers and debate them Till I DO KNOW more. There are a LOT of FFLs around HERE (Minnesota)that dont seem to know shit. You know, the ones that say it's illegal to put a folding stock on a pump shotgun and crap like that. Im the one cruising around the ATF site when the rest of you are looking at porn. I know a TRUE assault weapon is a machine gun, so tell me why the gov. still calls a semi-auto AR an "assault weapon"?
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