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Posted: 11/12/2002 4:14:23 AM EDT
I think you will all find this as interesting as I do.....[url]http://www.nytimes.com/ads/veripop.html[/url] . . Oh the humanity!!!!![>Q] Regards, Gary
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:22:54 AM EDT
link no workey.. can you paste it in here?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:47:36 AM EDT
I think he meant to link this, however since registration is required, I'll share:
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/12/politics/12ATF.html[/url] registration required! F.B.I. Attacks A.T.F. in Draft Report By ERIC LICHTBLAU WASHINGTON, Nov. 11 — The F.B.I. has initiated an unusual behind-the-scenes attack on another law enforcement agency, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, as part of an effort to protect its turf and responsibility for domestic security, law enforcement officials said today. An internal F.B.I. draft full of criticisms of the firearms agency has circulated in the last week among law enforcement officials. Some of those officials say the draft is part of an effort by the bureau to head off a plan to move the firearms operations from the Treasury Department to the Justice Department in a broad reorganization of domestic security. Some officials of the F.B.I., which is under the Justice Department, said such a plan could undermine its authority to investigate domestic terrorism. One official said the draft did not represent the bureau's views. The unsigned report accuses counterparts at the firearms agency of poor training for agents, dangerous handling of explosives at crime scenes and efforts to control cases outside its jurisdiction. The report cites examples from the recent sniper investigation, terrorism inquiries, the Salt Lake City Olympics and other prominent cases pursued by both agencies. "Due to the A.T.F.'s lack of strategic vision and sole jurisdiction mission," the report says, "they have `crept' into areas beyond their mandate." Agents from the firearms agency who have seen the document said that they were outraged and that the accusations were unfounded. "I'm appalled at the shots the F.B.I. is taking at us," said Art Gordon, a 27-year veteran at the agency and its representative to the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association. A spokesman for the agency, Tom Hill, said that its officials had seen the report but that because they were uncertain who wrote it or whether it reflected current views, "we don't know whether it has any credence." Mr. Hill and other employees at the agency acknowledged that circulating the report could harm its relations with the F.B.I. as law enforcement agencies were trying to work more closely. An F.B.I. official declined to comment on the specific criticisms in the report and said it was merely "an early draft." The official said the draft "wasn't meant for dissemination." The two agencies have historically had a testy relationship, reaching its nadir, perhaps, after they responded to the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Tex., in 1993. Publicly, relations appeared to have warmed in the last few years, with the agencies praising each other's cooperation in the sniper investigation. But possible reorganization plans for the firearms agency appear to have revived tensions. Proposals in Congress for a Homeland Defense Department do not address reorganization. Officials in the Bush administration and on Capitol Hill said they had reached an agreement that would move the firearms agency's law enforcement functions related to explosives, firearms and arson to the Justice Department. Proponents regard those as traditional law enforcement functions more closely aligned with the Justice Department's other responsibilities than the Treasury Department. Other functions, including regulating alcohol and tobacco, would remain at the Treasury Department. Law enforcement officials said a formal amendment might be offered in the Senate on the proposed reorganization in a few days. F.B.I. officials would not say who wrote the report or for what purpose. An official not associated with either agency who has reviewed the draft said he was convinced from its detail and authoritative tone that a fairly senior official at headquarters here had most likely written it. The official characterized the report as a seemingly "paranoid" attack from an agency under intense criticism since the Sept. 11 attacks and trying to protect its turf. The report was provided to The New York Times by an official who objected to the Federal Bureau of Investigation attack on the firearms agency as unfair and unjustified. The undated paper says that "the F.B.I. is not opposed" to the transfer of functions to the Justice Department. According to the report, the bureau is concerned that the move would expand the authority of the firearms agency "quite dramatically" into domestic terrorism, where the bureau has the lead role. Some officials, however, said that the F.B.I. was misreading the plan and that the firearms role would remain unchanged. The bureau, which has a broad mandate to investigate crime and terrorism, and the firearms agency, with a much narrower role involving explosives and weapons, have often worked side by side in inquiries like the Oklahoma City bombing, the Unabom case and the sniper rampage. The F.B.I., with nearly 13,000 criminal investigators, dwarfs the A.T.F., with 3,900, according to federal data. Even so, the paper indicates that some bureau officials believe that firearms agents have sought to undermine their authority and have sometimes endangered bureau agents and the public. The two-section 11-page report contrasts the "shortcomings" of the firearms agency against what the bureau says is its proven ability to handle better even domestic terrorism operations that involve explosives and firearms. For instance, in an arrest in Nashville of a suspected white supremacist tied to threatening a synagogue with explosives this year, the report said the firearms agency had used "unsafe practices" to store high explosives and live pipe bombs at the local police department. The bureau supervisor in Nashville "had to remove F.B.I. personnel from the area" as a result, the report said. The report also contends that the firearms agency "has demonstrated its disregard" for bomb technicians' safety in such situations "by making it a practice to handle and store pipe bombs as if they were not bombs." The report said that the firearms agency used lesser standards for handling explosives and that "these differences in operational philosophy translate to dangerous situations." "To this day, A.T.F. has not been able to get all of its bomb technicians to comply with the certification standards that have been set," the report said. As a result, it added, the agency "had to send some personnel home from the Olympics who were not certified." Law enforcement officials said tensions became particularly heated at the Sept. 11 attack on the Pentagon, where firearms investigators complained that they were shut out of the inquiry and ignored by the F.B.I. Firearms investigators questioned whether bureau investigators had the expertise to undertake the extensive evidence gathering, law enforcement officials said. An aide to Senator Charles E. Grassley, the Iowa Republican who has criticized the F.B.I. as running roughshod over other agencies, said the report and feud could hurt the bureau on Capitol Hill. "This," the aide said, "is a perfect example of the kind of Pac-Man mentality that the F.B.I. has."
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Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:12:54 AM EDT
Seeing these power hungry monsters attack each other is no surprise to me. We can all feel a little safer knowing the JBT's are busy taking shots at each other instead of innocent citizens.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:37:31 AM EDT
At the very least, I think the FBI has killed fewer innocent people and had less major fuckups then the ATF.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:01:33 AM EDT
Experts have been recommending disbanding the ATF for years. [url]http://www.apbnews.com/cjprofessionals/behindthebadge/2000/02/01/feds0201_01.html[/url] Of course the ATF will do anything to defend itself. Shok
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:32:35 AM EDT
I may preffer the FBI to the ATF...
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:06:51 AM EDT
i'm not too fond of government agencies, i would find it very ammusing if the ATF got it's self disolved. ian
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:22:43 AM EDT
I hope the FBI DNA takes over. I was never comfortable with paramiltary BATF troops conducting open warfare within our borders.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:36:02 AM EDT
Regulating alcohol has no place in 21st century America. Neither does regulating tobacco, for that matter. They're supposed to be tax collectors, yet they perform law enforcement duties 9 times out of 10. Worst of all, they have been bad to gun owners and everyone knows it. The only possibly useful role for the ATF might be their bomb investigations, which has nothing to do with collecting taxes so why do they do it at all? The disbanding of even a single alphabet-soup agency would go a long way towards restoring a tiny bit of faith in our government among those of us who are not going through life wearing blinders.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:25:40 AM EDT
So the line has been drawn in the sand. Which side are you on, the side that wants to disarm you or the side that wants to remove all of your privacy rights. Hmmmmmmmmm
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:33:40 AM EDT
It is just the "good cop-bad cop" routine. Both agencies need each other to justify the existence of their paramilitary units. At both Waco and Ruby Ridge, the BATF JBTs screwed up and the FBI HRT JBTs went in to clean up the mess.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:40:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 10:41:18 AM EDT by -UHLEK-]
Originally Posted By Spade: At the very least, I think the FBI has killed fewer innocent people and had less major fuckups then the ATF.
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That or the FBI is just better at covering up their's. [thinking]
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:51:07 AM EDT
I hate to break it to you guys, but this is [i]nothing[/i] new in federal law enforcement. The various agencies have been at each other's throats for decades. The fact that there are jurisdictional problems presented by overlaps makes these agencies far less effective than they could be if they had clearly delineated restrictions, or only one agency. This idiotic bickering costs us money, but it hampers governmental power and keeps us in the clear. Be happy these idiots feel their pride is more important than actually working.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:51:49 AM EDT
So the line has been drawn in the sand. Which side are you on, the side that wants to disarm you or the side that wants to remove all of your privacy rights.
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Unfortunately, gun owners are in the middle, and we'll lose either way. We need some way of turning this around to represent our rights rather than the other way around. You have huge organizations designed to take away your rights versus an individual. How is an individual going to win that battle? The only thing we have on our side is maybe a lawyer, assuming we're wealthy enough to afford one or a gun owners group, like the NRA, if we're lucky. Sorry, but I just get cynical when thinking about the future (or lack thereof) of individual rights...z
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 11:30:51 AM EDT
As much as I despise the ATF..I think that it would NOT be in our best interest for the FBI to take over the enforcement of Firearms laws and regulations. Why? [b]The F.B.I., with nearly 13,000 criminal investigators, dwarfs the A.T.F., with 3,900, according to federal data.[/b] Due to its resources the FBI will be more efficient and will be carrying out a greater number of attacks on gun owners than the ATF is capable of doing. It is better to have a small, ill funded and incompetant agency enforcing these unconstitutional laws than having the FBI coming after us.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:14:41 PM EDT
The problem with that "incompetent" agency we all know as F Troop is the simple fact that, BECAUSE they are incompetent, they have to MAKE SHIT UP to get cases and convictions! I'm not saying that everyone else in Federal LE is better, but the other agencies DO have a more satisfying track record... Killing innocents? Happens often enough with everyone that it is and will remain a problem, but it is far less common with everyone else than it is with F Troop. When Melvin Purvis got John Dillinger in front of the Biograph Theatre, there were two innocents shot by Fibbies in the rumpus... Besides, I have a hard time thinking the nearly 14K investigators working for the FBI will be detailes solely to firearms crimes - the FBI has enough to do... Disband the ATF, let them seek employment elsewhere. Rescind NFA34, delete the NFRTR, and let us get on with enjoying a satifying hobby... FFZ
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