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Posted: 11/9/2002 9:12:26 PM EDT
I went to a gunshow today and some guy had a heart attack. The paramedics tried to revive him for several minutes. I said a little prayer and had to go. I don't know if he made it or not, but I REALLY hope he did.
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 9:13:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 9:16:40 PM EDT
Prayer for family and dude!
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 9:18:13 PM EDT
Did they have an auto defibrillator at the convention hall?
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 9:18:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC: Prayer for family and dude!
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Ditto.
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 9:26:13 PM EDT
At one of the Great Western Shows I went to around 15 years ago I saw the same thing. The guy who ran one of those cheap cordura holster/cellphone/bag tables fell over on the floor. There was only fair grounds medic that could get there before the ambulance and had to give CPR by himself. The scene of the guy on the ground unconscious while his chest was being pumped by the medic always pops into my mind whenever I see those holster displays at the fun show.
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 9:32:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen: Did they have an auto defibrillator at the convention hall?
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I didn't see one.
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 9:33:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: I knew those outrageous prices would take their toll one day...
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Thats why I dont go to gun shows. They're bad for your health.
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 10:38:55 PM EDT
The auto defrillators are for people who dont know how to read cardiac rhythms. I would think the paramedics would be able to use a plain old defrillator. I have found that the auto defirillators take too long especially if you want to do rapid shocks.
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 10:44:52 PM EDT
I know this is rude to say under the circumstance, and I AM praying for the person and his loved ones, but I'll bet that if he dies, the media will write a story "Man dies at Gun Show" in an effort to make readers draw the conclusion that he was shot.
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 10:52:06 PM EDT
Now the antis are going to be able to say the being in the same room with guns can kill you. Those guns are evil things I tell you!
Link Posted: 11/9/2002 11:57:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Atencio: The auto defrillators are for people who dont know how to read cardiac rhythms. I would think the paramedics would be able to use a plain old defrillator. I have found that the auto defirillators take too long especially if you want to do rapid shocks.
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Ya what the heck's with those friggen auto "defrillators", I mean they should just put a regular ol' one on the wall along with a medical booklet on how to read cardiac rhythms! (Along with equipment to do so!) "Hey man hold on while I read about cardiac rhythms!" P.S. Not sure if your post is a joke though, since you insinuate that you can in fact use a defibrillator yet spell it wrong (two different ways)? So...
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 12:25:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:56:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2002 2:19:09 AM EDT by Atencio]
Originally Posted By SNorman:
Originally Posted By Atencio: The auto defrillators are for people who dont know how to read cardiac rhythms. I would think the paramedics would be able to use a plain old defrillator. I have found that the auto defirillators take too long especially if you want to do rapid shocks.
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Ya what the heck's with those friggen auto "defrillators", I mean they should just put a regular ol' one on the wall along with a medical booklet on how to read cardiac rhythms! (Along with equipment to do so!) "Hey man hold on while I read about cardiac rhythms!" P.S. Not sure if your post is a joke though, since you insinuate that you can in fact use a defibrillator yet spell it wrong (two different ways)? So...
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A paramedic should have the knowledge to read a rhythm. AEDs are for police and fireman that don't have training in reading lethal arrhythmias. With a manual defibrillator I can run off 3 shocks in a row without waiting for the AED to reanalzye the rhythm. A patient could be in fine V-fib and the AED might read it as asystole in which case it would suggest not to shock. Then again maybe I should give up nursing and take some spelling lessons
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 7:34:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Atencio: A paramedic should have the knowledge to read a rhythm. AEDs are for police and fireman that don't have training in reading lethal arrhythmias.
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I thought the Auto defib units were for anybody on site to use, not just emergency personnel? Or maybe that is just the goal, to get the average joe to know to grab the thing and use it? Sounds like you know what you're doing though!
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 8:19:15 AM EDT
A paramedic should have the knowledge to read a rhythm. AEDs are for police and fireman that don't have training in reading lethal arrhythmias. With a manual defibrillator I can run off 3 shocks in a row without waiting for the AED to reanalzye the rhythm. A patient could be in fine V-fib and the AED might read it as asystole in which case it would suggest not to shock. Then again maybe I should give up nursing and take some spelling lessons
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EMT-B's and BLS ambulances aint police or firemen and they use AED's all the time. AED's only read 2 shockable rhythms, but they are better than nothing eh???? Sometimes you can't shock and only drugs and CPR work, but then again for the vast majority of time nothing works and the patent will die. For every min the patent goes without a shock they have less of a chance of surviving. If yhey get quality CPR for 9 min and no shock (AED or otherwise) they have less than a 10% survival rate.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 8:24:12 AM EDT
I thought the Auto defib units were for anybody on site to use, not just emergency personnel? Or maybe that is just the goal, to get the average joe to know to grab the thing and use it? Sounds like you know what you're doing though!
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They can be used by anybody, you just follow the instructions and pictures. AED's are even Army proof [whacko][beer]
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 8:33:00 AM EDT
If he went, he went doing something he really enjoyed. We should all be so lucky. "When you are born, your name is placed in a book. When you day comes, it comes, and when you are dead, you are dead for a long time." Enjoy your time here!
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 10:31:51 AM EDT
I had a neighbor die of a heart attack Halloween night, after passing out candy to the kids. Funny thing was, I didn't know much about him until he died. Turns out he was retired Navy and had been a nuclear sub skipper. Guess we should all be more neighborly.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:02:03 PM EDT
The AED's in public can not be used by anyone. I am a CPR instructor, and you have to be trained how to use that AED. True that you can not do stack shocks with AED's but unless it is a witnessed arrest you should not be doing stacked shocks according to ACLS. Each one of those public AED's is controlled through a MD and you have to meet the guidelines of the MD AHA and the state to be cleared to use it. Be prepared to face a lawsuit for using one if you have not been trained to. Using an AED goes beyond normal scope of practice and the person is not usually protected by Good Samaritan laws... Molon Labe! Cris
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:03:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: I had a neighbor die of a heart attack Halloween night, after passing out candy to the kids. Funny thing was, I didn't know much about him until he died. Turns out he was retired Navy and had been a nuclear sub skipper. Guess we should all be more neighborly.
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Some years ago I was perusing the local news rag (Idaho Statistman) and noted a rather long obituary. Curious, I started reading about a fellow who in his younger days had spent time as a meteorologist with Adm. Halsey in the Pacific theater during WWII. The obit was fascinating as, apparently, this guy had been in fairly close proximity of the largest sea battles of that war. What a goldmine of information and insight this guy must have been. Now all gone. Ironically, in the very same paper there was an article wherein the publisher/editor/whatever of said news rag asked his readership to suggest articles of interest that would basically make good reading. Crap!! What a missed opportunity!! The experiences of that sailor could have probably filled pages and pages. Kevin
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:29:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:44:24 PM EDT
The absolute WORST time and place to have a heart attack...Tiny Tim did it! He was down for five minutes, "dead center" (sorry!) on a brightly lit stage during his own solo show, before anybody actually got up and checked him, at which time it was already quite too late. Moral of the story: Make it clear to your audience that you don't do heart attack gags, so if you appear to be doing one, treat it as real. I have spent time with an ambulance service (one year) as an assistant only, not an EMT or paramedic, but if I were confronted with a patient in flat line or showing a rapid, random squiggle, (v-tach) on a monitor and had access to a defibrillator and there was no better qualified person in the area to help, I'd throw the law to the wind and hit him with 200 joules to start. You bet I'd violate the law to save some poor sucker's life! What good citizen wouldn't at least try? I heard a not-quite-confirmed report that once, one of the para's I knew took the paddles and lit up another sleeping para's ass with a minimum shock just for the hell of it. No harm done except for the fist fight that broke out immediately afterwards! CJ
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 1:45:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2002 1:47:48 PM EDT by ChrisLe]
Originally Posted By Atencio: The auto defibrillator is for people who don’t know how to read cardiac rhythms. I would think the paramedics would be able to use a plain old defibrillator. I have found that the auto defibrillators take too long especially if you want to do rapid shocks.
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Atencio, The automatic defibrillator is not intended for use by EMS personnel although they can use it if necessary. It's there for use by non medically trained personnel while awaiting arrival of EMS. According to AHA and ACLS standards, early defibrillation (within 4-6 minutes of onset of arrest) is the key to resuscitating someone in cardiac arrest. Unfortunately, most EMS systems will not arrive within that time frame and thats why AED's are becoming more and more prevalent in our society. Phil_a_Steen was inquiring as to whether an AED was available for use by bystanders while awaiting the arrival of EMS. Also, AED's do indeed deliver stacked shocks..220j...300j..360j..in the presence of Vfib or Vtach..
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:17:59 PM EDT
Interesting, the AEDs I have seen require analyzing before it will let you deliver each stacked shock. I understand the rationale and use of AED but was just assuming that Phil was following up on Kalifornias story from when paramedics were all ready there. We almost started a fire one time when a patient in custody (they are required to wear one chain around the ankle locked to the bed) coded and we had to shock him. I have touched a patient that was getting 200 joule shocks for paced cardioversion, quite a shock. BTW, dont shock a flatline unless you think it is fine v-fib. If it is asystole you will have inhibited the recovery of the pacemaker cells and eliminated any chance of them ever recovering.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:22:28 PM EDT
We were shown their use in cpr class. It seemed to me that the thing did everything for you as long as you put the pads in the correct spots. From then on the machine seemed to take over.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:30:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2002 2:31:27 PM EDT by ChrisLe]
Originally Posted By Ratters: We were shown their use in CPR class. It seemed to me that the thing did everything for you as long as you put the pads in the correct spots. From then on the machine seemed to take over.
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You're on the right track but only partially correct. Once the pads are on, the machine will perform a number of functions automatically. It will detect and analyze the rhythm and, if indicated, will decide whether to shock the patient and what energy setting to use. What it will [b]not[/b] do is shock the patient automatically. Once a shock is indicated, the machine will prompt the user to step back, keep everybody clear of the patient, and press a button in order to deliver a shock. Once a shock is delivered, the process repeats itself. Just follow the voice prompts and you can't go wrong... These machines are truly a life saver and should be in every public place....
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 4:58:20 PM EDT
Depending on the state laws anybody can use a AED. We carry AED's on our rescue's (BEC's & EMT's) and it delieveres stacked shocks. WY law only lets us do 2 sets of 3 stacked shocks before transporting. Ambulances in this area are all ALS and are dispatched the same time as we are.
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