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Posted: 11/6/2002 7:34:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 7:39:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 7:53:21 AM EDT
I haven't sent money, I haven't asked for money, and I haven't even sent in $60 to become a paying member of the site, so my opinion on this can be disregarded. I'll state it anyway: It's only $1,200! WTF is the problem anyway? That's not even "real money". It's not like that "amount" could possibly be used to help everybody who needs help equally. It's barely enough to help _one_ person over two weeks. Take the money, buy a fancy rifle, some toys for it, ammo, and raffle it of for $60 tickets. Everybody can buy as many tickets as he wants, minimum number of tickets sold would obviously be 20. The profits of the raffle go to a bank account where they will accrue interest, and will be paid out according to a scheme which will include factors like paying member? since when? how many people in need? how severe is the emergency? and such.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 8:04:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2002 8:05:25 AM EDT by buck_nay_kid]
On the other hand I did not know somebody hree needed help and now that I find the fund in misuse I'm unable to send any money to it. For the members who need help and for the life of the fund sort things out. Life has ups and downs and gun owners don't have alot of fans in some places we need to be able to work togther to help our selves.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 8:06:00 AM EDT
It's only $1,200! WTF is the problem anyway? That's not even "real money". It's not like that "amount" could possibly be used to help everybody who needs help equally. It's barely enough to help _one_ person over two weeks.
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I know what your saying Kar98, but I disagree. To some people $1200 will keep them from losing their place to live, it can feed them till they get back to work etc etc. Stay on this EdAvilaSr...It is important!! This needs to get resolved soon because alot of repitations are being damaged. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 8:06:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 8:06:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 8:08:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 8:15:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 8:25:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2002 8:53:57 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 9:45:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:21:07 AM EDT
In order to protect the current holders of the money, Castle Arms, any further negative comments or feelings I suggest they divest themselves of this money at ONCE. Again I suggest Ed Sr as the temporary caretaker of the fund until the non-profit can be set up. I am confident Ed can organize a committe to direct him in management and disbursement of the funds. No one company or individual should be responsible for how the money is given out nor should one company or individual PREVENT it being used. It's not like we are giving someone nuclear launch codes for crying out loud! It is just a little money that is not being put to work. Until a non-profit is in place I think we all agree that Ed's honor is great and we would all find him acceptable as temporary caretaker of this fund. Does anyone disagree about Ed?
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:35:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:38:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: AR15.Com will [b]NOT[/b] accept the funds at this time, nor in the future.
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If this is true why continue to make someone look badly when so much good has been done for the member's and AR15.com by this person.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:56:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 11:05:19 AM EDT
I can personally say that there have been times in my life where as little as $ 50.00-200.00 would have made the difference between me having gas to get back and forth to a new job and food our kids bellies till I received my first pay check. Many people don’t need great amounts of cash to make a difference in their lives in the short term. If this brother in need has a PayPal account I’m in for $ 50.00, if not I can send him a check. EdAvilaSr or GoatBoy, I trust you guys, Imail or email me so I can send some cash. THISISME
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 11:57:26 AM EDT
I know I may run the risk of being told I don't know anything but I would like to ask a few pertinent questions. I personally know that only ONE person has asked for their donation to be returned not requests(plural), name the others. I also personally sent a check to cover his donation. I don't know if he has received it and I am waiting for him to step forward to post his receipt here on this board. Since the inception of this fund no one has stepped forward to make a claim for this money other than 2 unemployed people before any guidelines or committee were established. Please name anyone that has ever been turned down or even made a request for this money. Just making posts about someone in need on this board is not a request to disburse money. Now that there is a committee in place I think and hope it will be used for its original purpose. I hope it is used up entirely so you no longer have this issue to work over like a dog with a bone. Many of the posters didn't contribute but yet are offended, how can this be? Its because you won't let it rest and are using it as a issue.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:10:11 PM EDT
The member in need is discussed in this thread here: [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=152804[/url]
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:15:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:33:38 PM EDT
Here is a copy of the guidelines I posted on Oct 25 after asking for volunteers in early Oct. The original post was tacked for a few minutes by some kind sole but then untacked & attacked for lack of use. Post Oct 25 ref guidelines Last year while doing the LEGP rifle sale, we at Castle Arms thought it would be a good idea to create a fund to assist firearms enthusiasts in need. During the 2 LEGP sales we have collected $1222.60 for this purpose. Up until this point we have not established any guidelines upon how to use the funds & did not want to be the sole decision maker. Because of that, we have put together a committee to create some guidelines and oversee disbursements from the fund. The committee is made up of 5 with 3 as primary & 2 to fill in when needed. IAJack, Grock, liberty86, IMHO & Grin_N_Barrett make up the committee as of today. This committee might change if those on it don't show enough interest to respond. This fund is to assist firearms enthusiasts with or for drastic needs such as sudden overwhelming medical or legal problems. This fund will not consider unemployment relief since there are many Fed & State programs for that. Payments will be up to $500.00 (or even the entire fund if the cause was worthy enough) and will be viewed as a loan to be paid back when the member gets back on feet in order to make funds available to other needy members. A low interest note may be requested & could be forgiven at the decision of the committee only. Post counts or location will not be a deciding factor. Requests should be made by email to a member of the committee not in posts for requests to help someone. If nobody on the committee knows the person being "nominated" or making the request, we will strive for confirmation from 2 others who are known by the committee & can vouch for the actual need & sincerity of the request. The committee may also give or make requests on behave of the person in need for other types of assistance such as contacts, medical information, relocation assistance etc The existence of the fund should be made more visible here & in other areas so it can be used for it's purpose and there should be ways to replenish disbursements and or increase the funds ability to help.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:34:18 PM EDT
Great idea thebeekeeper1 has. I would like this to end as I count the Avila family as friends as well as those at Castle. Thank's to both I have met some great folk's from all over. Yes, even including you in that beekeeper. [smoke]
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:37:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tspud1: I know I may run the risk of being told I don't know anything but I would like to ask a few pertinent questions. I personally know that only ONE person has asked for their donation to be returned not requests(plural), name the others. I also personally sent a check to cover his donation. I don't know if he has received it and I am waiting for him to step forward to post his receipt here on this board. Since the inception of this fund no one has stepped forward to make a claim for this money other than 2 unemployed people before any guidelines or committee were established. Please name anyone that has ever been turned down or even made a request for this money. Just making posts about someone in need on this board is not a request to disburse money. Now that there is a committee in place I think and hope it will be used for its original purpose. I hope it is used up entirely so you no longer have this issue to work over like a dog with a bone. Many of the posters didn't contribute but yet are offended, how can this be? Its because you won't let it rest and are using it as a issue.
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Look, Zorro rides again.....I seem to remember the faceless and nameless one coming to his buddy/brother/friend/in-laws defense on the last thread. The guy needs money, AR15.com members put money in a cubbie hole for just such a need. Where is it? I have nothing to do with the Avila's or with CA....it's common sense. Somebody answer the question or come on and say, sent $300 to -UHLEK-. How hard is that? The issue is the silence from the keepers of the coin. The [b]SILENCE[/b] makes them look guilty. The money likely wholly, or mostly originated from members here. That is all.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:41:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tspud1: Since the inception of this fund no one has stepped forward to make a claim for this money other than 2 unemployed people before any guidelines or committee were established. Please name anyone that has ever been turned down or even made a request for this money. Just making posts about someone in need on this board is not a request to disburse money. Now that there is a committee in place I think and hope it will be used for its original purpose. I hope it is used up entirely so you no longer have this issue to work over like a dog with a bone. Many of the posters didn't contribute but yet are offended, how can this be? Its because you won't let it rest and are using it as a issue.
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So what do people have to do? Didn't someone make requests on the behalf of the member in need? Do they have to come crawling on their knees? Just what do you all plan on doing with the money? If you're not going to help anyone right now, then I say put the money in escrow until this is resolved.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:41:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2002 12:44:22 PM EDT by Waldo]
Pick a charity and send all the money there and be done with it. Lets say a burn ward at a children's hospital. Who could have a problem with that? If you do something like this I'll be glad to donate. Let's quickly turn this from the negative into something positive... [:)]
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:47:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2002 12:51:27 PM EDT by Frown_N_Barrett]
SHIVAN & Chimborazo, I posted the guidelines above, they are pretty simple. As a matter of fairness & caution they should be followed. I was out of town on business in GA until late Monday night. I was not aware of this until yesterday & I doubt the other committee members are either. If someone wants to email a request, I'll certainly ask the committee members to consider this. Requests should be made in private to avoid all this open bickering. The only requests ever made of the fund before any guidelines or committee were established are the following: DonR & God Bless TX for being unemployed & for antiUSSA (by others) for medical expenses. We told Don the money wasn't going to be used as unemployment. I told antiUSSA no guidelines - no $ & he rejected the suggestion on his own as being inappropriate. After the committee & guidelines were established only one request has been made & that by RBADD was rejected.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 12:48:21 PM EDT
Now that I think about it, why isn't there a section somewhere in GD where members can submit job offers or inquiries? Many of us are in a position to offer employment, temporarily or permanent, or might hear of an opportunity by word-of-mouth, so why not use this network we've got here? The idea being, if a member in need gets a job through this site, that's more of a help than a few dollars. The increased loyalty between employee and employer (both ways) would even be a plus compared to walk-in applicants. One of our legal beagles would have to look into the anti-discrimination aspects of this idea (i.e. "AR15.com'er preferred"), although I think it's only illegal to discriminate towards race, gender, religion. Also, a section for used tools that might be of value, like the Pentium 200-based PC you would throw away otherwise, or last years cellphone, or your retired fathers painter's equipment, or other things that would help you get a job, like "How to learn $useful_skill" books. Such things should be offered for free, or for the actual shipping costs. Examples: ---------- Pentium 200 PC, works, free to pick up or you pay S+H. D/FW area, e-mail. I'm out of work, need plumbing fixed badly, who can help? Need a house painted in SoCal. 3 rooms, one storey, submit offers. Driver needed for lawyer. Permanent job. Call 555-555-1234 "How to learn C+++++ and Karate in 12 easy lessons" needed, can I have your used copy? Who needs a 50 bucks in Hogdrool, AL? Need my lawn raked once a week. ----------- and similar items. Just an idea, think about it.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 1:01:59 PM EDT
Actually, maybe this whole "BIA" thing is a bad idea. People here seem pretty willing to help out, and perhaps the existence of a fund would make people more complacent about donating. If you leave it to individuals, they will help, and they obviously have a say over how much and to whom the money goes (plus, no overhead). Otherwise, this is what happens. Typical mini burocracy.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 1:07:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 1:10:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 1:20:08 PM EDT
Shivan I am not Zorro and I was willing to put my money where your mouth seems to be. Why do you keep posting the same bull shit over and over. You KNOW where the money is so why and you do ask? YouKNOW that the Castle people have answered over and over again but yet you accuse them of silence. This just proves my point that some on this board want to use this as an issue for what ever reason. I have over and over asked for it to be given away or back. I remain nameless but not clueless.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 1:32:47 PM EDT
I'll address you in am IM. Since it doesn't need to degrade here.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 2:09:57 PM EDT
Normally..I steer clear of these issues....but feel the need to give my opinion for what it`s worth.......sounds like a no-brainer to me....bickering never solves anything....the guy needs help and the help is there...if it`s a limit to the contribution or whatever...fine..but give the help or don`t...but this all makes me wonder if it`s brothers in arms..or..friends in arms.....personally...I woudn`t think of asking for help here..since the respect that I "feel"..leads me to think it probably would`nt be worth it...but that`s my problem....I would think the fund was set up with a foundation of rules...then for GODS sake...help the guy out....especially if he`s a vet.....not that it should REALLY matter...but no arguement.....one other thing....this might be better kept to the team forum???
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 4:06:09 PM EDT
It not only troubles me that the BIA money was not used as of yet, I just don't understand why the people(s) holding the money have not done anything to help UHLEK? This has gone a bit too far with no valid reasoning behind it, and no member here should have to suffer while we have a fund designed to combat this kind of burden. I know that GoatBoy is taking a very important and foward thinking step by setting up a future charity, but in the mean time let's get this money we already have into the right hands ASAP so we can use it as was intended from the beginning. I have both given to the fund and also to a few members who were in need. With my limited financial status, I will do my best to help our brothers, however, I firmly believe that a down on hard times brother would be much better served by a fund that receives donations from a larger number of members verses just a few of us offering help privately. I sometimes feel embarrased that I can usually send no more than $20 to a brother in need and I think that some members may feel that a small contribution such as that may not be helpful in a private offering scenario where only a few give. But given a chance to donate in much larger numbers to a designated fund, that $20 or less contribution becomes substantial when multiplied by hundreds or thousands of members doing the same. Kar98 had a very smart suggestion to raise money with a rifle auction, just keep the ticket prices reasonable, sell more if you have to and that will create some capitol for the fund.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 7:24:03 AM EDT
$1200 is nothing in the grand scheme of things, but it's definitely something to a family in need.
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$1200 to a needy family at christmas time. sounds like a solution
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 7:36:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Waldo: Pick a charity and send all the money there and be done with it. Lets say a burn ward at a children's hospital. Who could have a problem with that? If you do something like this I'll be glad to donate. Let's quickly turn this from the negative into something positive... [:)]
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. I do. I have a problem with it. I donate an absolute butt-load of money to "charities" during the course of any year, and it is done with forethought as to which charities have made the best case for my money to me. The BIA fund is a differnet thing entirely, it has nothign to do with charity, and everything to do with helping a family member out. SOmebody in my family needs something, they don't make a case for it, they just say it, and help is provided. No expectations of a tax benefit is looked for. The BIA fund is not a charity, it is just a fund that family members can dip into when the baby is hungry, the deed is on the line or some other neccessary expense. No explanations shoudl be asked for, none are needed for me. You either trust your family, or you don't. Simple as that.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 7:41:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 7:45:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 8:29:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Frown_N_Barrett: SHIVAN & Chimborazo, I posted the guidelines above, they are pretty simple. As a matter of fairness & caution they should be followed. I was out of town on business in GA until late Monday night. I was not aware of this until yesterday & I doubt the other committee members are either. If someone wants to email a request, I'll certainly ask the committee members to consider this. Requests should be made in private to avoid all this open bickering. The only requests ever made of the fund before any guidelines or committee were established are the following: DonR & God Bless TX for being unemployed & for antiUSSA (by others) for medical expenses. We told Don the money wasn't going to be used as unemployment. I told antiUSSA no guidelines - no $ & he rejected the suggestion on his own as being inappropriate. After the committee & guidelines were established only one request has been made & that by RBADD was rejected.
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These guys have been absolute pains in the asses of almost EVERYONE on this board...whether they admit it openly or not. Even the suggestion that charitable monies would be given to any of these people would completely ensure the death of this account. On that note, to the individuals named above, drain the account...this will be the end of it and we can let this die. Obviously you are not going to go out gracefully on this so just go out for good. FWIW, I have been out of a job for over a year now and would not even CONSIDER taking a dime from any of the rather charitable members of this board. It just goes against the spirit of what we are all about. DonR, GBT, and Anti...you all have proven yourselves in the negative in one less than graceful method or another to the membership on this board and deserve nothing better than this handout. The BIA account has turned into nothing more than a pyramid scam by the Castle Arms groupies that have always felt themselves better than the rest of us, and I suggest that we kill attempts for charitable contributions in the name of this board.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 8:45:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 8:46:06 AM EDT
To clarify what FnB said, I did ask for help for GBT, but I never asked for it for myself.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 8:52:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: I'd like to propose we ask castle arms to send a check for the entire amount to Ed Sr. For him to hold or release as he sees fit until the commitee and new account is formed. At this point i see no reason for castle arms to be involved with this at all. They have already had the ability to draw interest from these funds for the last 2 years. Personally i trust Ed to do what is right. These funds need to be in control of the board management until such times as proper procedures are in place. mike mike
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...and I second that motion. Ed and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I know that he is a good person and would never do anything but positive with this money. I hate to speak for Ed...maybe he would be personally opposed to this for some reason.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 9:15:09 AM EDT
Ed and GoatBoy, I just sent you an email. We need to fish or cut bait on this issue. I have a few ideas that I think will help... CMOS
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 10:49:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2002 10:51:59 AM EDT by RBAD]
I asked for a REFUND of my 2 contributions to the fund. (to be directly donated to the -Uhlek- Family or The NRA) Tim Greene e-mailed me indicating that a refund check had been mailed to me, but to date, nothing has been received by me. I was apparently rejected ..??.. BTW: I NEVER asked for a refund for my contribution to the "Buy Tim Greene/AntiUSSA another Gun" fund ! [;)] This is a captured screen print of the Castle-Arms.com website: (prior to their recent deletion of the "fund" items) [img]rbad.ar15.com/castle-fund.jpg[/img] [b] Just a note ---> Here is what Tim Greene of Castle Arms had posted on [b]their[/b] website: [/b] [i]Brother's in Arms, are Brother's in Need -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an emergency assistance fund that is being setup to help members of the firearms community and their families in times of need. There are many situations that arise from time to time where a call to order is given on the boards, and many caring members come shining through for the benefit of others. Currently, we have been reminded of a "Brother in Arms" whose wife is dying of cancer... He is only one of many that need our help! As you're busy purchasing that new rifle and a few new toys to go along with it, please take a moment to remember those less fortunate with a contribution. The amount you personally choose to contribute really doesn't matter, but obviously the greater your gift, the greater your love for a "Brother in Arms". Thank You! Tim Greene Castle Arms, Inc[/i] [b]IMHO:[/b] (this is my PERSONAL OPINION and I am not acting as a representative of AR15.com): [b][red][size=3]As these collected funds were never distributed, The Money MUST be Returned to the Contributers NOW![/b][/size=3][/red] (or give it to the -Uhlek- Family or to the NRA) Time is ticking away boys... Tick Tock. [:(!] Please do the RIGHT THING!
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 11:00:41 AM EDT
RBAD, you act like you contributed thousand's. You sir are not helping the situation. Just my opinion, which Mr. Avila in an earlier post stated we were allowed to give. Even if not a Team Member.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 11:09:33 AM EDT
[b]STOP THE BUS!![/B] I got an e-mail from John yesterday re. UHLEK's situation. Within 1 hour I was on the phone with uhlek, he stated he did NOT want, nor did he EVER want help from bros. in arms fund. Below is the text of my post made today, (I've been unable to get this site for some reason, until now). I volunteered for the committee a few weeks back when the last thread came up, and frankly I'm a bit pissed at some of the comments here. John made the guidelines clear for the use of funds. We were going to make an exception in this case for uhlek, he declined the offer. What went on with the fund before the last 3 weeks or so, I have no idea.
Sorry it took me a day to get back, I haven't been able to acess the site. Talked to UHLEK on the phone, he says he does not desire assistance from the brothers fund. Below is a copy of an e-mail he sent to John. Thanks... [blue]Okay, first I really don't want to apply to the BIA Fund. After the outpouring of support from the Members at AR15.com, I don't think that we'll need the help from the fund. I never actually asked for assistance, it just kinda started to come in by itself. I was just planning on selling a few things to get us by until I could bet another job. But to answer your questions-I do not qualify for unemployment within Washington State. The INS position looks good, the only possible problems consist of a bad credit history, and employment history. (Get hired on at one place and get laid off; then get hired on a another place, and get laid off. Washington's economy/unemployment rate has been terrible as of late.) I wouldn't want to get another loan, because paying it off would be difficult. Stephanie and I are both greatful to the Board Members for their generosity, but we have both talked and we do not want to be the ones who recieve the BIA Fund, we feel that we have been helped enough, and that the Fund should go to the next person along who is in an emergency situation. Thank you, and God Bless, UHLEK [/blue]
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Link Posted: 11/7/2002 11:29:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2002 11:34:05 AM EDT by RBAD]
Originally Posted By BeauBeaux: RBAD, you act like you contributed thousand's. You sir are not helping the situation. Just my opinion, which Mr. Avila in an earlier post stated we were allowed to give. Even if not a Team Member.
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You are definitely welcome to voice your opinion! ----------------- BTW: You are correct, I did not give thousands. I gave a total of $20. ($10 in each year + the 4% cc surcharge) I ask you: Is it a requirement to have lost "thousands" to cry foul?? I simply want a refund ! I will match the amount refunded with $80 bucks to make it an even $100 to be donated to any member in need or the NRA. [b]I also want Tim Greene / John Spake / Castle Arms to offer a FULL REFUND to all members who have contributed to their "Fund". This should be done ASAP! [/b] I gave these contributions with the belief that they would be disbursed immediately to needy members of this site. --------------------- I normally do not mention the funds that I donate to good causes, but I will make an exception in this case: I have also contributed an additional amount of over $760 to individual needy members in the years 2001 and 2002. (I will NOT release the names of the recipients, but these contributions can be verified with Goatboy if need be) [b]NOW THAT was MONEY WELL SPENT !! [:)] [/b]
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 1:03:28 PM EDT
RBAD is above reproach. His request and bringing this issue to a head may well be the best thing.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 1:33:48 PM EDT
My posts from yesterday about other requests for refunds and other requests for money to be paid out have not been answered. WHO ARE THEY. Anyone can make a statement here but when it comes down to proof no one has any.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 1:39:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2002 1:40:01 PM EDT by RBAD]
TSPUD1: WHO the heck ARE YOU? Are you claiming responsibility for this financial fiasco?
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 1:53:48 PM EDT
I don't have a dog in this fight, and might need to just keep my mouth shut, but I didn't notice in the "screen shot" that it mentioned that the fund was only to be used on AR15.com members.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 2:40:45 PM EDT
I usually do not have alot to say on here and it usually isn't much when I do. I am a "Team" member, I have been an active poster since around 1997 or so when alot of you "old boarders" were around, even though my post count is lower than alot of newbies. This board is/has become like a second home to me. I have made friendships that will last a lifetime. For fucking Christ's sake, you should listen to how you sound? Is this AR15.com anyomore? The board has gone through alot of changes, growing pains and trials. It has always come out the other side usually for the better. But what WTF has happened when we start accusing members of shit, questioning long time members, friends and other mens credibility and motives, threatining lawsuits, kicking off mods for being outspoken, awarding others for choosing the correct side...... The rules were posted about the fund, how it was going to be handled, then deleted. They were again posted and deleted. A member in need spoke up and declined the fund after receiving help. That being said.. Most of you should [b]BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES[/b]
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