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Posted: 11/4/2002 7:02:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2002 7:04:59 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
-------------------------------------------------- [url=http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1104NonlethalWeapons04-ON.html]Navy, Marines urged to give nonlethal weapon development top priority[/url] Associated Press Nov. 4, 2002 02:00 PM WASHINGTON - Development of nonlethal weapons such as bad smelling chemicals to control crowds or psychological methods to calm them, energy beams to stop vehicles and underwater barrier systems should be given a high priority by the Navy and Marine Corps, the National Research Council recommended Monday. "In particular, nonlethal weapons are an additional way to provide greater security for military bases and protect our security," said Miriam E. John of Sandia National Laboratories, chair of the committee that prepared the report. The recommendation comes just over a week after about 120 captives died when Russian forces pumped incapacitating gas into a theater where about 40 Chechen separatists had taken more than 750 people hostage. Russian officials said the gas was not supposed to cause deaths. The goal of nonlethal weapons is to incapacitate people or equipment while minimizing unintended fatalities and damage, the Research Council said. [red]"What we're saying is that we're putting our soldiers in harm's way, doing humanitarian and peacekeeping missions, without the tools to deal with these large crowds that can turn on them in a minute," [/red]John said in a telephone interview. [i]{Uhh.... how about [U]SHOOTING[/U] them?!}[/I][;D] She said [red]calming methods[/red] that would have a psychological impact on people - perhaps using music or speaking to crowds appropriately in their language - have not been well studied. [i]{So... they're gonna play Barry Manilow to a mob of skinnys?!}[/I] As for using chemicals to calm crowds, she said international treaties are complicated. "[red]The lawyers have got to get together on this.[/red] There is so much latitude for interpretation, it needs a very, very careful look." [i]{Lawyers!? WTF?? Aw shit! First it was feminazis getting their hooks into the military, now lawyers?!! We're doomed}[/I] The report noted that while chemicals that have a physical effect, such as putting people to sleep, may be banned under treaties, [red]materials that have a psychological impact, calming people down, may be legal.[/red] [i]{Yeah, who cares whether they work or not as long as they don't offend the UN or the International Criminal Court!!!}[/I] Edward Hammond of [red]the Sunshine Project, a chemical and biological weapons monitoring group[/red] that is the chief critic of nonlethal weapons programs, called the council's report "terribly, terribly irresponsible." [i]{So we're actually taking MILITARY advice from a group named the "Sunshine Project"!?! What the F@CK??!!!!!!!}[/I] "The panel's findings will be used by the Pentagon to redouble their chemical weapons development efforts with potentially disastrous results for arms control," he said. "Other countries will follow suit and controls on chemical weapons could quickly destabilize." The armed services have operated a joint nonlethal research program since 1996 and the committee urged that it be sped up. The study was done after the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, although it was requested before then, John said. Seventeen U.S. sailors were killed when a dinghy loaded with explosives rammed the destroyer as it was refueling in Aden. Taking that into account, the report stressed the need for accelerated research into barrier and entanglement systems that could be deployed to stop vessel movement. Other possibilities suggested were solid-state lasers, chemicals that stop engines and calmatives to stop such attackers. . . . Among nonlethal weapons the U.S. military is already investigating are the possible use of drugs such as Valium in a spray form to calm rioting crowds. Some critics contend the effort violates international treaties and federal laws against chemical weapons, an allegation the military denies. Researchers at a Pentagon-funded institute at Pennsylvania State University prepared a 50-page report in 2000 saying that developing calmative weapons "is achievable and desirable" and suggesting drugs like Valium for further research. One hurdle for using such drugs for riot control, the researchers wrote, is finding a way to deliver the substances to large groups, such as in a spray or mist. Other problems are figuring out how to prevent other injuries, such as from people falling down if they are knocked unconscious, as well as determining the proper strength of a spray depending on whether it is to be used indoors or outside. Material collected by the National Research Council disclosed a wide range of proposed nonlethal weapons ranging from liquid projectiles to microorganisms that gobble up highways and runways, making them unusable, sticky sprays that make floors and stairs a gummy mess and foul-smelling fogs. Some examples are already in use, including tear gas, rubber bullets and flash-bang grenades. --------------------------------------------------
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:08:34 PM EDT
It for the real battle(against the america people),they are trying to hide it as saying it is for peacekeeping.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:16:17 PM EDT
Lets face it, because of the media in Vietnam and the anti Americanism within our country for our armed forces, the army will always have to be PC in dealing with the enemy. Did you see the CNN.com poll today? [qipte]Was the U.S. right to execute terror suspects without a trial?[/quote] Why in hell SHOULDN'T we kill these evil sons of whores? But I'm sure that 25% of the people that voted "No" to execute those moon god worshipping murderers have their liberal agenda, which certainly doesn't include protection of Americans from the muslim murdering threat.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:24:02 PM EDT
Driven by a fear of generating "collateral damage." Such a PC world we live in [V] Emperor Hirohito didn't sign a surrender because we sprayed Valium over Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:30:48 PM EDT
Why nonlethal weapons when the lethal ones work fine?
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:43:19 PM EDT
1. Non-lethal weapons are lethal. 2. These things aren't for use against foreigners, they are for use against us. 3. Lawyers have been consulted about war activities by the US since Operation Just Cause. We consult them, then we ignore what they say. In those rare instances where what the lawyers said and what we did dovetailed, we trot it out as good propaganda to show what law abiding folk we have at the Pentagon and in DC.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:56:09 PM EDT
Oh just great !!!! Now we have a bunch of PC liberal pussies telling the military to not be so "deadly" All the while we have local, state and federal JBT's shooting innocent civilians and burning down buildings. The end is near.........
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 8:07:19 PM EDT
I will say one thing - I've worked with the Colonel in charge of that office, and he's a true blue American. A very trustworthy guy. If he's got a say (and he probably won't), we wouldn't have too much to worry about.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 8:16:57 PM EDT
Yea, I wouldn't worry about a nonlethal military as far as enemy nations go. I suspect that these nonlethal weapons are primarily for use against american citizens.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 8:28:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2002 8:29:39 PM EDT by Prospector]
I found this just this :am - thought you might like to read it... just for S&G. Prospector [url]http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,825082,00.html[/url] Antony Barnet Army's secret 'people zapper' plans Antony Barnett, public affairs editor Sunday November 3, 2002 The Observer Britain has been involved in secret talks with the United States over the development of so-called non-lethal weapons, including lasers that blind the enemy and microwave systems that cook the skin of human targets. The Observer has established that British and US military leaders met at the Ministry of Defence HQ in London to discuss the operational benefits of such technology when used as a 'persuasive tool' against people from enemy regimes. Documents obtained under the US Freedom of Information Act detail talks about battlefield uses of the weapons and whether they could be used to back up economic sanctions against target countries. The weapons include lasers that can blind and stun an enemy and cut through metal to disable vehicles. Another weapon discussed was a system that uses microwave beams to heat the water in human skin in the same way as a microwave oven cooks a meal. The third category of weapons was the use of gases similar to those deployed to end the terrorist siege in a Moscow theatre, which killed more than 100 hostages. The disclosures prompted demands last night from opposition politicians for a full statement on Britain's involvement in developing such weapons. Opposition MPs and campaigners believe the fact that the military is considering developing and using these weapons in war or as a tool to threaten other states breaches a number of international arms and humanitarian treaties. Menzies Campbell, foreign affairs spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, called on the Government to 'come clean' on Britain's involvement and will demand Foreign Secretary Jack Straw gives details. 'These reports have serious implications,' Campbell said. 'If Britain and American are together seeking to exploit loopholes in existing international arms convention, our credibility will be severely undermined. Suggestions that we use such weapons as part of any sanctions programme is a level of policy which must be discussed on the House of Commons.' British personnel at the secret meeting with the US military included Vice Admiral Sir Jeremy Blackham and Dr Martin Hubbard, who heads the non-lethal weapons research programme at Porton Down, Wiltshire. US officers included Major General Bice, deputy commander of the US Marines in Europe, and Brigadier-General Richard Zilmer, deputy director of US operations at European Command Headquarters. The documents reveal the full scope of the new weapons programmes that the US military is developing. The first was high-power microwave technology that cooks an enemy's skin. Its military name is the Vehicle-Mounted Active Denial System (V-Mads), but it has already been nicknamed the People Zapper. It works by harnessing electromagnetic power to fire an invisible pulse of energy at light speed towards a target. The beam causes the water molecules under the skin to vibrate violently, producing heat and discomfort. Scientists believe the system could heat a person's skin to about 130 degrees in two seconds. The US delegation admits there might be problems with legal claims by victims. The documents reveal that both the British and US military believe laser beams have a 'number of potential applications and desirable attributes as a non-lethal weapon'. They are impressed that laser guns can be 'tunable' either to stun or kill. Although laser weapons that permanently blind are banned under international law, the documents show officials are studying low-energy lasers that blind temporarily and others that produce a stunning effect. The classified document, which is an 'assessment report' of a meeting that took place on 30 November 2000, admits the term 'non-lethal' was inaccurate.'
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 8:56:05 PM EDT
They just need to find the "brown" note.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 8:58:23 PM EDT
As for the Cole, why waste the cash developing 'entanglement barriers' or nonlethal weapons? Just set up an exclusion zone, mark it with bouys in the local language, and if someone crosses the line, blast em (i.e. 'You've got a destroyer, so destroy something)... And the M82A1 can stop trucks allready without killing the occupants (unless required)... There's your vehicle stopper... But these 'think tanks' miss the obvious military solutions, and shoot for Star Trek answers to current-day problems...
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 9:06:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Prospector: They are impressed that laser guns can be 'tunable' either to stun or kill.
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Oh great... phasers... I wonder how Roddenberry (wishful thinking liberal that he was) would react to weapons being first things that moved from Star Trek to the real world (think about it, what does everyone associate 'tunable' energy weapons with)?
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 11:57:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 3:09:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2002 3:12:24 AM EDT by ARndog]
That micro-wave gun sounds messy. (anybody ever play Crusader:No Regret) [rail]
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 6:04:24 AM EDT
microwave gun that cooks the enemy? sweet...just shoot me for cryin out loud and get it over with.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 10:33:31 AM EDT
The purpose behind these "weapons" is to leave no trace of their use. Like when cops beat people with a phone book to reduce unsightly bruising. If you get cancer in 20 years, they have plausible deniability. It wasn't them, it was because you were a smoker, or you lived near a waste dump. And yes, they will be used against Americans, but so will predator drones with Hellfire missiles. Wait and see.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 10:36:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By soylent_green: 1. Non-lethal weapons are lethal. 2. These things aren't for use against foreigners, they are for use against us.
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Exactly! There might be more than a little resistance if US Army/Marine forces are ordered to fire upon rebellious American peasants, but "non lethal" weapons, why not?
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