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Posted: 11/2/2002 3:21:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 3:26:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 3:34:17 PM EDT by 7IDL]
...I explained that his cop friend probably was not aware of every law on the books, and most likely did not know about this one...
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BUT WTF?? we[b][red]*[/b][/red] are supposed to know every single one? we need to get out the proverbial flame throwers and get rid of some BS "laws", especially the Illegal ones like the "crime bill" [b][red]WE, meaning every swinging richard that isn't a cop[/b][/red]
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 3:29:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 3:36:36 PM EDT
I have also clarified my post.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 3:41:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 3:42:58 PM EDT
My brother-in-law is a Police Officer. He did not know that you cannot have a semi-automatic shotgun with a pistol grip AND magazine tube that holds more than 5 rounds. He'd been breaking the law for years before he became a police officer, unknowingly. FALARAK didn't say anything insulting about police officers. The bottom line is that there are WAY too many laws to memorize them all. The laws officers are most familiar with are the ones they routinely have to deal with.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:06:49 PM EDT
originally posted by ilikelegs [b]They don't deserve any slack for incompetence. Its their fucken job to know their laws they enforce.[/b] Municipal, County and State law enforcement officers have no jurisdiction over federal statute. They can NOT enforce federal laws, they are NOT trained on federal law in the academy and it is NOT thier responsibility to know, enforce or otherwise have anything to do with laws outside of thier own jurisdiction.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:10:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:17:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ken226: Municipal, County and State law enforcement officers have no jurisdiction over federal statute.
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No, but a hypothetical National Association of Municipial, County and State LEO for Civilian Ownership of Firearms would have a better chance getting itself heard than the John Deere Fanclub for Bigger Shotguns, Locale #234. Yes, ride their ass, put pressure on the cops too, so /they too/ can see themselves as victims of arbitrary laws.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:21:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 4:24:05 PM EDT by Ken226]
I am a cop, and I can assure you, he can't bust you. If he is a total prick he can call ATF and hold you untill they get there provided the officer has a legal reason to hold you (ie you commited another offfense which is arrestable). On the same note, a County deputy or State trooper can't arrest you for breaking a city ordinance, but i city officer can. A city officer can arrest for a violiation of state law, however the offense must be charged in the district court in which the offense was committed unless his city has a municipal court of record (very few cities have a municipal court of record).
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:23:45 PM EDT
We,as gun owners, can't know every law but we sure have to try. The anti-gunners want our you know whats in jail for life and they'll use any gun law to do it. Most cops don't know about the AWB provisions and so that can lead to problems. Remember in this case BOTH the cop and civilian can be prosecuted. CRC
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 5:48:24 PM EDT
I think 99.9% of all LEO's could care less about someone using a LEO mag at a range. So don't get all worked up and start calling names.Why not find a new hobby besides waiting for an opportunity to bash the PD over something that is a remote as a LEO mag violation. Lets see, I'm going to the range tomorrow. I think I'll spend the entire time inspecting weapons. Yeah right!! get a life and a new hobby please....
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 5:59:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 6:00:00 PM EDT by Yankee1911]
Originally Posted By mmsig229: --snip-- Why not find a new hobby besides waiting for an opportunity to bash the PD over something that is a remote as a LEO mag violation. --snip--
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Gee, I don't know. Maybe because we've got a lot more to lose than you do in this situation?
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:12:12 PM EDT
If you're so paranoid, why not just get rid of them?? I doubt that the extra couple of rounds will be any benefit to mowing down the tin cans or punching paper....
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:19:51 PM EDT
mmsig - That's not the point. The point is, that while ignorance of the law's existence is no excuse for a violation (recently help up in a KSSR court!) and there is no working provision for informing the citizenry at large of a new law passed which may effect them DIRECTLY in such a manner (felony, loss of rights, loss of property, et. al.) and despite the lack of active information, we are still liable for a violation of any law - even if we didn't know about it until arrested. For something like this, I would think that the "restricted" tag would raise a little warning flag ("Law Enforcement Use Only?") it is possible that this individual could have been entirely innocent in thinking that these mags (technically department property and only to be disposed of by the PD) were "safe" as they were disposed of by an active police officer. Of course, this peace officer is likely not authorised to dispose of the magazines - unless he is the department Armourer of Chief. This would be an example of "rely upon to detriment," where you rely upon information from a source considered authoritative on the subject, and was prosecuted as a result. Of course, the cop could cry "Sting!" and get himself a decoration - or at least a commendation - out of it all... FFZ
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:22:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 6:30:35 PM EDT by sharky30]
that's the point of these laws, to slowly make us all criminals. They don't have to do a full ban since felons can't own guns
Originally Posted By FALARAK: I got to thinking about it, and how sad it was that so many good people, who do not want to break any laws, are at risk of going to jail, and losing their second amendment rights... because of these ridiculous laws. Really started to piss me off again.
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Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:25:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mmsig229: If you're so paranoid, why not just get rid of them?? I doubt that the extra couple of rounds will be any benefit to mowing down the tin cans or punching paper....
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That's not the point, now is it? Too many people are unknowingly breaking an admittedly stupid law. There's always that (using your stats) .1% of LEOs who might like to bust somebody who doesn't know any better. And since you're a LEO, you are immune from this particular stupid law. I think that fact gives the rest of us reason enough to bitch about it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:26:22 PM EDT
Whoa here. It is not the local cops job to enforce federal law, as a general rule. Most states, however, and federal stautes 9as I understand them) do give local guys the authority to make arrests for violations of federal laws. Our policy allows us to enforce federal law, and make arrests, except for immigration laws. That being said, we don't. It is enough of a chore to keep up on state and local laws, which we have been trained on, let alone federal, which we have not been trained on. The only federal gun laws we would ever mess with have local equivalents (felon in possession, unregistered MGs, and so on) that are just as tough. Heck, the feds usually decline prosecution because our local courts are tougher and easier than federal ones. The few cases I have referred to ATF usually get handled in local courts. ATF is mainly a resource we use to trace obviously stolen guns that weren't reported, so we can get them back to their rightful owners. I also know of no AWB prosecutions in my area; the usual response is confiscated weapon or magazine, and a stern warning. Not to say it couldn't happen, but my limited understanding is that AWB prosecutions generally occur to folks who are already having legal problems, like delivery of controlled substances and armed robbery charges. Most cops are ignorant of AWB stuff. Those who worry about cops disarming the general populace didn't hear the whines I heard from cops last year when we did an audit, which included post-ban hicaps officers purchased on PD letterhead. These guys were blowing a gasket over the thought that they couldn't keep a couple of $15 hicaps if the ever left the department (not counting retirement).
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:36:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FALARAK: I asked about this, and he said he bought the pistol from his friend, who was a police officer, so everything was ok. As I explained the 1994 "crime" bill, and what this meant to him... and how he was un-knowningly breaking the law, he was blown away. He was amazed his police officer buddy did not tell him about this as well. I explained that his cop friend probably was not aware of every law on the books, and most likely did not know about this one. I got to thinking about it, and how sad it was that so many good people, who do not want to break any laws, are at risk of going to jail, and losing their second amendment rights... because of these ridiculous laws. Really started to piss me off again. The 1994 "crime" bill MUST go away.... it is just the right thing to do.
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Ignorance is bliss...until you're in front of the judge. I think that problem is the lack of wanting to be aware of the laws and ignoring your own ignorance.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:48:08 PM EDT
For those that missed this yesterday - if the local PD is anti-gun enough, they may not even bother to learn their own municipal laws: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=152381&w=activePop[/url]. Adam
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:50:45 PM EDT
The feds would be crazy to charge anyone with posession of a fullcap restricted mag. All the defense attorney would have to do is show the jury the preban mags that are legal to own and then show them the "restricted" ones and the prosecution would lose. Does anyone even know of case where someone got arrested for this crime alone? The feds would be absolutely insane to ever try to make this stick on an otherwise law-abiding person, it is hard enough to nail them on NFA violations, which is why they are currently only going after "felons in posession" because those are the easy cases to win. Even the most law-abiding among us cannot always adhere to every single little rule and regulation, it is impossible and everyone knows it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:54:00 PM EDT
Our policy allows us to enforce federal law, and make arrests, except for immigration laws.
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Your policy sucks, big time. The immigration laws are the only ones NO ONE appears to be enforcing. I know it's all about "winning the hearts and minds" of the local illegal immigrant population, but as the recent sniper case punctuates, there are an awful lot of illegals committing an awful lot of crimes in the US. The policy of looking the other way so as to play nice so that the illegals won't stay quite as thick as thieves (and thus maybe turn each other in or report domestic abuse crimes) is really beautiful for the rest of us.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:59:58 PM EDT
FAL, I too have run into a similar situation. I was at a Christmas party last year and I was new to the job (2 months). I overhear guns being talked about and I'm like, what the heck, walk over. So, I am standing there listening to a guy talk about his Glock and when he was done talking, I asked what model he had. "12 or 13" Poor fella got a Glock before they had ever been perfected! Anyway, I tell him there's no such thing, and of course he can't recall. I ask the caliber, and he said it was a 9mm. I asked how big it was -- small, medium, or large ;-). He just looked at me. I reach behind and pull my G23 from my SOB and say, "Is it this size?" Turns out he has a 19. The conversation progresses and he talks about how his "clip" held 15 "bullets". I ask how long he has had the gun and he said not long, he got it from his dad who is former LEO (not retired). I ask if the mags are marked and he says, "Whaddya mean marked?" Oh jeesh! After a long talking to, turns out he didn't know what he was doing was wrong. Go figure. Not to mention the fact that his dad sold him a former duty weapon with LEO Only mags. Just goes to show that some people, LEO's included, have no clue what-so-ever.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 7:01:42 PM EDT
... It's curious that my [i]casual shooter[/i] friends are constantly commenting "Winston Wolf, how is it that you seem to always know the specifics on gun laws". ... Well, I guess, it's because I feel I have more[:D] to lose then the average gun owner. ... That's a fucking shame
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 8:38:28 PM EDT
My first post!! Honestly, did anyone ever think about just ignoring the law? It's a stupid law that is almost imposible to enforce. The main reason that prohibition was repealed was because everybody knew it was a joke. (Coinincidentally prohibition only lasted about 10 years too.) Tell your friend that if he doesn't want to remain a "felon" he better vote pro-gun. There have been a few posts about people who "just didn't know". keep em comming. This shows fence sitters, how a bad law can make criminals out of perfectly innocent people.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 10:47:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: The feds would be crazy to charge anyone with posession of a fullcap restricted mag. All the defense attorney would have to do is show the jury the preban mags that are legal to own and then show them the "restricted" ones and the prosecution would lose. Does anyone even know of case where someone got arrested for this crime alone? The feds would be absolutely insane to ever try to make this stick on an otherwise law-abiding person, it is hard enough to nail them on NFA violations, which is why they are currently only going after "felons in posession" because those are the easy cases to win. Even the most law-abiding among us cannot always adhere to every single little rule and regulation, it is impossible and everyone knows it.
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I'm sure the same would apply to a flash hider and a colapsable stock on a post ban....who the hell cares...the local LEO probably wouldn't....I don't want to find out though![:D]
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 11:04:40 PM EDT
This is why Project Exile is not necessarily a good thing. How many felonies have you or your friends unwittingly committed? These gun laws don't stop crime, but create criminals.
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 12:18:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 3:03:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FALARAK: Went shooting with a guy I met at work the other day. We somehow got on the topic of guns/shooting.... and he mentioned how he'd really like to get a little range time in... he had recently bought a Beretta 92FS and had hardly shot it. Well, we went down to my favorite local range, and started blasting away at the pistol benches. I looked over his Beretta, pulled out a mag, and noticed that both of his mags had the little "restricted for law enforcement or military use only" I asked about this, and he said he bought the pistol from his friend, who was a police officer, so everything was ok. As I explained the 1994 "crime" bill, and what this meant to him... and how he was un-knowningly breaking the law, he was blown away. He was amazed his police officer buddy did not tell him about this as well. I explained that his cop friend probably was not aware of every law on the books, and most likely did not know about this one. I got to thinking about it, and how sad it was that so many good people, who do not want to break any laws, are at risk of going to jail, and losing their second amendment rights... because of these ridiculous laws. Really started to piss me off again. We started to talk about how if he had to defend his home... and used that pistol, and how it WOULD be inspected by the police doing the investigation.... what a sad situation he would have been in. We shouldn't have to be lawyers to be able to own a gun in this country. I am acutely aware of the law, only because of my gun ownership being a hobby, more than just a right. I know things, because of my reading and partitipation in this web site.... that so many other Americans do not. I wonder, how many potential felons are out there, who have no idea about these stupid laws, and the risk they are at because of it. [u]The 1994 "crime" bill MUST go away.... it is just the right thing to do.[/u]
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So, Is that Cop a Unprosecuted Felon, or just an accessory to an Unprosecuted Felony?
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 4:44:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 5:15:14 AM EDT
Wave, the difference is YOU are reasonable and try to do a good job. Unfortunately, cops are human and include all kinds, both good and bad. Some of the not so good variety pick at the unimportant nits for whatever reason. (While ignoring the outrageous.) Most of us agree bad laws should not be enforced but do little to get them repealed. The *&^%#@ politicians pass ever more laws that the citizens are unaware of or ignore because they are so illogical and stupid. The best of cops can never learn every one of them; hell the judges prosecuters etc. can't either! When a body of law becomes so great as ours has it is impossible to be a law abiding citizen no matter what you do. That is sad as most people wish to obey the law. Frustrating to say the least.
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