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Posted: 10/31/2002 6:02:18 PM EDT
From Netcraft: The site www.ar15.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000The site www.ar15.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000. The site has always been slow, and now, I got a message saying that guest logons were being denied because of a lack of resources. I'll give the web site owner a tip: Linux or FreeBSD Apache PHP
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:07:57 PM EDT
or maybe, we just don't let more than a 1000 guests on at a time, and everytime a member logs in, the number of guests decrease by 1, thereby increasing speed for the members. A very simple fix if you get kicked off: LOGIN TXLEWIS
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:09:02 PM EDT
Oh, one more thing, If you really want to give the website owner a tip, become a paying member, and thank him for running the best website on the web. We all think he does a hell of a job. TXLEWIS
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:19:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:20:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:21:05 PM EDT
Membership has its privledges. Sign up. Get speed.
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:29:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: ditto
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I ditto your ditto.
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I see your double dittos, and double dog ditto you!
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:29:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:30:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:33:52 PM EDT
I BET 3 DITTO'S ON RED!
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 6:48:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2002 6:49:46 PM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 7:00:07 PM EDT
I'll match your ditto's and up you an attaboy.
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 7:08:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 7:30:56 PM EDT
Goaty, ya cheap bastard, Go and buy a MAC !!! [:K] Seriously PeterAR, AR15.com is running on a rather large cluster of Win2k Advanced Server boxes w/ a MASSIVE SQL box sitting there for backend DB work. It's currently fed by 4 T1's that are almost always at 90+% utilization ! (I do think that Goatboy is looking to add some more bandwidth and do some more code tweaking -- the 1000 user limit / login requirement is one of those [;)]) That doesn't even include the e-mail servers: The e-mail server / WebMail server and anti-virus gateway server are all down here in the PRNJ and are on a dedicated Full T1 that is now @ 60-70% utilization. (It's only that high because LordTrader and I get so much porn spam [:D]) (We also have a backup MX server and a backup DNS server located on a second fractional T1 in my dusty basement) Keep in mind: (in NJ at least) ONE full T1 w/ local loop & ISDN shadow b/u costs aprox $1400/mo. Oh Yeah: The gerbils that run in the Avila Generator Cages are expensive to feed. Pellets and hay are expensive in NY state ! [:D]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:06:27 PM EDT
Why is it that amateurish Linux guys who really, truly know very little about Microsoft architecture throw out this incessant bullcrap about Linux/Apache being faster and more secure. It's total bullcrap and it's arguing apples and oranges. Bandwidth dictates 90% of site performance with another 5% coming from application and database architecture. PHP is dog slow and exceptionally insecure (see CERT advisories). Truth of the matter is, open source academic geeks simply refuse to admit the truth, which is that late generation Microsoft technology kicks ass. They want to cling to their elitist drivel because they long for the "old days". Give it up. I can deliver application in MS architecture in 10% of the time a comparable J2EE application can be delivered. It will be faster, more secure, and the total cost of ownership model still favors Microsoft - even with those nasty licensing fees. Ever wonder why Linux guys love "free" open source software? Because they can't earn enough money giving their stuff away to actually afford to buy licensed software. You get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:16:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: Why is it that amateurish Linux guys who really, truly know very little about Microsoft architecture throw out this incessant bullcrap about Linux/Apache being faster and more secure. It's total bullcrap and it's arguing apples and oranges. Bandwidth dictates 90% of site performance with another 5% coming from application and database architecture. PHP is dog slow and exceptionally insecure (see CERT advisories). Truth of the matter is, open source academic geeks simply refuse to admit the truth, which is that late generation Microsoft technology kicks ass. They want to cling to their elitist drivel because they long for the "old days". Give it up. I can deliver application in MS architecture in 10% of the time a comparable J2EE application can be delivered. It will be faster, more secure, and the total cost of ownership model still favors Microsoft - even with those nasty licensing fees. Ever wonder why Linux guys love "free" open source software? Because they can't earn enough money giving their stuff away to actually afford to buy licensed software. You get what you pay for.
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I don't understand a word you or [b]RBAD[/b] said, but I agree. [BD]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:17:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2002 8:21:42 PM EDT by toaster]
Question for RBad or Goatboy or BenDover: Wtf does it cost, per month, in bandwidth fees alone, to keep a site like this online? I'm assuming it's astrnomical.. Thx, -T. Edited fur bad speeling..
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:26:15 PM EDT
RBad & Goatboy, I'll give you $5 for the whole site....cash!! Hell, I'll even throw in a box of ammo. Deal?? SGtar15
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:28:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: Ever wonder why Linux guys love "free" open source software? Because they can't earn enough money giving their stuff away to actually afford to buy licensed software. You get what you pay for.
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Linux has its place, on the desktop 486's of the kiddies in Croatia who wrote that piece of shit. and 90% of opensource is shit, the other 10% hasn't been updated in 3years I'm not the biggest fan of windows. I infact once carried the title of NT admin at previous jobs. But Windows has a place: on most peoples desktops, and places who need rapid code development and desktop integration. I'm a berkeley snob. the unix, not the liberal sCITY.
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:31:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2002 8:33:51 PM EDT by BenDover]
Originally Posted By toaster: Question for RBad or Goatboy or BenDover: Wtf does it cost, per month, in bandwidth fees alone, to keep a site like this online? I'm assuming it's astrnomical..
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GoatBoy has never told me a hard number. I estimate hard costs for AR15.com's bandwidth alone is over $5200 a month based on RBAD's New Jersey $ estimates. (Unless RBAD is hijacking bandwidth from the cable company again [:D]) You have to be able to support 1000 - 1500 simultaneous users at all times with some cushion in there for spikes. Now... out here in hillbilly land, I can put such an animal on a fiber SONET ring with a Cables & Wireless backbone connection and juice that momma at 4MB for around $800 a month. Ohio was a frontline for bandwith wars so we're sort of overbuilt.
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:35:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: RBad & Goatboy, I'll give you $5 for the whole site....cash!! Hell, I'll even throw in a box of ammo. Deal?? SGtar15
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I'll see that and throw in a kitten, too. [:D] On a serious note, as soon as I catch up on some bills, the check for my Team Membership will be in the mail. This place is too damn much fun and well worth $5 a month to help support it. [:)]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:36:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BaNo: But Windows has a place: on most peoples desktops, and places who need rapid code development and desktop integration.
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Which is... oh, I don't know.... 99.999999% of all corporate IT environments in the United States of America in the year 2003. [;)] Berkeley is for those academic guys who have the luxury of R&D/development budgets and student labor. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:46:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2002 8:49:01 PM EDT by RBAD]
TOASTER: An off-hand "Guesstimation": 5 T1's (aggregate b/w of 7mbps) @$1000-1400 each. = aprox $5000-$7000/month. And that doesn't include software (Goatboy is a coding genius and contributes all of his spare time to this site) / hardware / maalox / valium / etc... [b]And it's still too slow [:D][/b] Ed Avila, Goaty's brother, initially started the old "AR15.com List". It evolved into the original ARFKOM message forums which ran on a UBB platform. The site demands soon required Ed Sr. to take a baseball bat to Goatboy and beat him into submission. Goatboy then wrote the "New and Improved" site code from scratch. BenDover OWNS Microsoft Corp, and in his spare time, has also has achieved a ton of experience in the whole "extreme sport" of coding. We actually have a bunch of folks here who can run circles around the best that the IT world has to offer! MY STORY: I am just the guy who feeds the gerbils and them safe from San Francisco residents and Richard Gere! [:)]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:48:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: RBad & Goatboy, I'll give you $5 for the whole site....cash!! Hell, I'll even throw in a box of ammo. Deal?? SGtar15
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I have to check with the Avilas, but I'm open to your offer. It's not Wolf Ammo, is it? [:D]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:50:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: Why is it that amateurish Linux guys who really, truly know very little about Microsoft architecture throw out this incessant bullcrap about Linux/Apache being faster and more secure. It's total bullcrap and it's arguing apples and oranges. Bandwidth dictates 90% of site performance with another 5% coming from application and database architecture. PHP is dog slow and exceptionally insecure (see CERT advisories). Truth of the matter is, open source academic geeks simply refuse to admit the truth, which is that late generation Microsoft technology kicks ass. They want to cling to their elitist drivel because they long for the "old days". Give it up. I can deliver application in MS architecture in 10% of the time a comparable J2EE application can be delivered. It will be faster, more secure, and the total cost of ownership model still favors Microsoft - even with those nasty licensing fees. Ever wonder why Linux guys love "free" open source software? Because they can't earn enough money giving their stuff away to actually afford to buy licensed software. You get what you pay for.
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Thank You! That was refreshing! I work with a penguin on the other side of my cube. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:54:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: Now... out here in hillbilly land, I can put such an animal on a fiber SONET ring with a Cables & Wireless backbone connection and juice that momma at 4MB for around $800 a month. Ohio was a frontline for bandwith wars so we're sort of overbuilt.
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You bastage ! First you get to own cool guns in Free America, then you get to buy a church for what landscaping costs here. Now you pay CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP prices for B/W. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:55:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2002 8:59:41 PM EDT by BenDover]
Originally Posted By RBAD: BenDover OWNS Microsoft Corp, and in his spare time, has also has achieved a ton of experience in the whole "extreme sport" of coding.
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Bill Gates started MSFT in '75 and I started programming in '79 on DEC/VAX systems in DiBOL. [:P] He was ahead of me by 4 years. I do like Xtreme Programming though. Team approach gets more done... [:D]
Originally Posted By RBAD: You bastage ! First you get to own cool guns in Free America, then you get to buy a church for what landscaping costs here. Now you pay CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP prices for B/W. [:D]
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Don't forget that I am also married to a goddess. [:D] Time Warner/RR Business Class has a 6MB dedicated connex on a triple SONET fiber ring for $760 a month. [:D] They went to war with Cinci Bell/Zoomtown during the whole cable vs. DSL thing. TW/RR won.... although I did hear that Cinci Bell is supposed to release some 1.5 MB DSL product later next year for $50/month. I'll believe it when I see it.
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 8:58:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 9:03:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yankee1911: This place is too damn much fun and well worth $5 a month to help support it. [:)]
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Hehe.. Another [s]SUCKER[/s] Team Player [:D] Goatboy is gonna buy another yacht with that 5 bucks. [:D] Seriously though... Not only will you be helping out the site with your support, you also some added benefits: - Photo Hosting (soon to be improved by GoatSOFT Enterprises, Ltd.). - E-mail Account (yourname@ar15.com). - WebMail Interface & Anti-Virus Scanning for E-mail. - Way Cool picture next to your name. - The ability to edit DonR's posts at any time. - 24/7 Access to Striker's Bathroom. and the list goes on..... In all of the years that I have known Goatboy, he has never required or even encouraged anyone to contribute to the site. [b]The Avila family provides us with this "community" out of the kindness and generosity of their hearts and I thank them for that ![/b] OK Boss: Do I get a pay raise now? [;D]
Link Posted: 10/31/2002 9:05:04 PM EDT
FrankSquid... Microsoft nearly missed the ENTIRE internet bandwagon in 1995. Netscape completely slammed them, but Bill turned the direction of the company on a dime in under 90 days. They had to scramble to catch up and compete. As a result, the development tracks for their traditional operating systems got derailed for several years as the technology battle heated up. MS was never in any danger of Linux because they fought the war to win the desktop a long time ago. The danger was from a competitive desktop application like Nutscrape which could have put a dent in their market penetration. If that would have happened, THEN Linux might have been a threat. I think Microsoft has been able to readjust back to certain quality control standards that were relaxed during the heat of the .COM era. R&D was happening so fast, they had to push product out the door at an accelerated pace. Nobody ever complained about DOS being insecure or a bad OS. People loved it. That's why we all weren't using OS/2 in 1992. The company doesn't intentionally put out shitty product... they do what they have to do to compete and keep the competitive advantage (calendar time).
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 6:28:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 6:47:23 AM EDT
I can tell you why pimply geek kids and fat hairy yetis with handknitted sweaters with too much time on their hands love Linux: to feel superior to the "conformist" masses. And wouldn't they love it if everybody had to come grovel before them to get help? "Oh, you're just not intelligent enough to use a /real/ operating system." Damn you, you idiot (spoken to nobody in particular), I need my computer to work and play with it, not to type in cryptic lines, install a new distro version every 3 months and then wait ten minutes til OpenOffice fires up. Well, least OpenOffice crashes are almost as rare as they've been under Word 2.0 for DOS. I can build, upgrade, maintain, fix all my computers and LANs without any kind of outside input except maybe a quick glance at the manual from time to time; without having to sacrifice a black penguin to the local (or not so local, could be a Albanian kid who neither speaks English or German) self-declared Linux demi-god in hope he would descend from his haughty seat in the clouds to punch in more command lines faster than a Minigun fires.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 7:14:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98: I can tell you why pimply geek kids and fat hairy yetis with handknitted sweaters with too much time on their hands love Linux: to feel superior to the "conformist" masses. And wouldn't they love it if everybody had to come grovel before them to get help? "Oh, you're just not intelligent enough to use a /real/ operating system." Damn you, you idiot (spoken to nobody in particular), I need my computer to work and play with it, not to type in cryptic lines, install a new distro version every 3 months and then wait ten minutes til OpenOffice fires up. Well, least OpenOffice crashes are almost as rare as they've been under Word 2.0 for DOS. I can build, upgrade, maintain, fix all my computers and LANs without any kind of outside input except maybe a quick glance at the manual from time to time; without having to sacrifice a black penguin to the local (or not so local, could be a Albanian kid who neither speaks English or German) self-declared Linux demi-god in hope he would descend from his haughty seat in the clouds to punch in more command lines faster than a Minigun fires.
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You got it. How often does the average user really need to recompile some custom setting in the file system after opening the C source code? All they want to do is type some letter for their boss.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 8:54:18 AM EDT
Please realize that the majority of technology decisions made in business today have nothing to do with technology at all. In the 60's, they used to say "No one lost their job for buying IBM." Today it's Microsoft. In no way does that imply MS's software is better than anyone else's. And it's just recently that they got their shit together. For the 20 years before that they produced nothing but shit. Their OS, C compiler, the C++ compiler, the Pascal compiler, applications, you name it: shit. As far as Linux, it is a better choice in some cases, especially if security is a real issue. Windows is still playing catch-up in this area. Without a doubt, 99% of my development is on Windows and SQL Server using C++. But that doesn't mean Windows and SQL Server are the best, simply that it gives business the warm fuzzies.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:06:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2002 9:09:03 AM EDT by California_Kid]
Originally Posted By PeterAR: ... I'll give the web site owner a tip: Linux or FreeBSD Apache PHP
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GoatBoy has already given an authoritative answer, but do you really believe that a Linux or FreeBSD server running Apache and PHP does not also have resource limitations? I run a Windows 2000/IIS 5/Microsoft SQL Server site that serves hundreds of thousands of hits per day. My company also runs Linux/Apache/MySQL servers. Each platform has strengths and weaknesses. Capacity is much more dependent on available bandwidth, hardware, and the efficiency of your applications than on the operating system and system software.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:15:35 AM EDT
Here is the best solution: Send in a requisition to upgrade the T1's to T3's. It should be approved by the billing department since Dubya gave that big budget increase to the Bureau and all. WOO HOO!
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:52:23 AM EDT
If bandwidth and access is so much cheaper in other areas of the country why isn't the site hosted elsewhere?
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 10:11:00 AM EDT
PeterAR, What can I say? All this free bathtub code Linux crap makes me sick. Microsoft owns the world right now because it's standardized, easy to use, and has a staff to support it. Everytime in the future you want to spout that dribble about Linux/Apache garbage and how great free is, just ask yourself how much money you have put into your AR15. Was it nice and cheap? Cause I'll bet if it was, it's not worth the powder to blow it to hell. But if you spent money and got a nice rifle (which I know you do because we all love the Black Rifle here) then you got some quality. That means someone spent time and money to design it, create it, and SUPPORT IT!!! I own a computer networking firm in Wisconsin here and I back this site 100% even though I am new to it. These guys are running a real infrastructure here that no linux penguin garbage could do without 17000 geeks who have never had a date constantly tweeking and fumbling with it. Nuff Said.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 10:55:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PeterAR: From Netcraft: The site www.ar15.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000The site www.ar15.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000. The site has always been slow, and now, I got a message saying that guest logons were being denied because of a lack of resources. I'll give the web site owner a tip: Linux or FreeBSD Apache PHP
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Oh man, everybody's an "expert" [rolleyes]. By the way, can you post your network and/or software development qualifications?
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 11:02:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2002 11:06:52 AM EDT by Kar98]
Originally Posted By mattja: And it's just recently that they [Microsoft] got their shit together. For the 20 years before that they produced nothing but shit.
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That's a pretty simple-minded way of looking at things. Whoever came up with the perfect product at first try? Things evolve, from the blackpowder-propelled Chinese fireworks to the Space Shuttle boosters, from Da Vinci's hangglider to the A340, from the first 3-wheeled motorcar built by Gottlieb Daimler to the Porsche 956, from Blaise Pasquale's computing devices to the Pentium IV... Neither the Space Shuttle boosters, nor the Porsche 956, nor the A340, nor the Pentium IV are perfect by all means (and they all crash occasionally), and much less have their ancient predecessors been perfect. But every development has to start somewhere, and you don't achieve perfection at the first try. And how would anybody be able to imagine _what_ practical, everyday usage would do to a product. "Oops, didn't think /that/ could happen. Oh well, I'll change that in the next version." You start with _some_thing, then you submit it to the market and see if there's a demand for it, and if people complain how they would like to have a certain feature, and how something /really/ bad happens, everytime they do /that/, you'll have learned two things: People use the product, possibly in a way you'd have never imagined, and it needs improvement. So you improve the product to meet customer demand, because it's worthwhile. People use it and would buy a better version again. If it was any other way, we would either be driving around in the 1896 Daimler Motorcar, because it was perfect anway, or we would still have horsies as the major means of individual transportation. [Edited to add: Or Gottlieb Daimler would have designed the 2003 McLaren MP4-17 from scratch] That's the way capitalism works. If you deliver a totally useless and crappy product, nobody will buy it, if it's at least somewhat useful, customers can buy it and you can improve it over time. (Although how AOL fits in there remains a mystery to me. Let me check their last few quarterly earning reports...ah, so, well, that makes sense then)
As far as Linux, it is a better choice in some cases, especially if security is a real issue. Windows is still playing catch-up in this area.
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So does Linux, or why do you think the current Linux kernel has the version number 2.4x and not 1.0? Linux _is_ a better choice for some cases indeed: if maintaining a computer becomes the end instead of the means.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 11:27:42 AM EDT
Here's a real world example of my decisionmaking with Linux vs. Windows. I just recently recommended and submitted a purchase order for 2 kickass Dell servers to run RedHat Linux. The reason for running Linux was because these servers will only be Oracle database hosts (primary and backup) and I didn't want to pay for Windows 2000 Server licenses on machines that would only use 5 or less user accounts to hit databases. The Oracle TNS listener doesn't care what the application environment is when it hears the call, so I was looking for the most cost effective solution to tide me over until next-year's budget. Oracle certifies RedHat but the machines didn't ship with "Enterprise" RedHat for clustering. It appears that RedHat has now developed it's own proprietary module for clustering. You can only get the download of the compiled mod after you pay RedHat for one of three available tiers of "support services". Interestingly enough, the cheapest tier is $800 - the exact same price as a 5 user Windows 2000 Server license. Of course, I could develop and compile my own module using VRRPD (virtual redundancy routing protocol), but the labor cost would exceed the cost for both RedHat and Microsoft - AND, it would not be Oracle certified. Now, tell me again what the advantage of Linux is? Even though the administrative cost was higher, you used to be able to get around licensing. Now you have to pay for licensing too (oh... it's just not called licensing).
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 12:44:31 PM EDT
Kar98, do you know the history of Microsoft at all? Where were you in the 1980's when they were formed? Have you studied their history? Have you developed software using their development tools? Have you used their applications in a professional capacity? If you want to talk software, great. However, your analogy using automobiles is meaningless. BenDover, you must have me confused with someone who's a devote Linux fan. Actually, I prefer OSs such as Windows with GUI front-ends more than command-line systems such as UNIX. It makes administration easier, which is a great thing. However, I also have enough experience in this business not to buy into the hype. The major selling point of the Windows OS has always been ease of administration. For years it was a given that UNIX and IBM OSs were superior in every way. Hell, MS didn't even try to compete with them until recently. The thing that sold Windows to business was lower cost of ownership, not superiority. And to aid that effort, MS offered dubious certification, which as we have all seen has proven to be almost worthless. I am not arguing against Windows being easier and cheaper to administer, nor am I saying that Linux is the cure all. But I will say that I am old enough to know better than to jump on any bandwagon, MS or otherwise. If you want to go into the specifics as to why MS pisses me off, fine. But I don't want to bore people here more than I already have. [:D]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 1:00:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2002 2:59:41 PM EDT by RBAD]
Originally Posted By Big_B: If bandwidth and access is so much cheaper in other areas of the country why isn't the site hosted elsewhere?
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There are many drawbacks when it is hosted "elswhere". (and the "quality" of the connectivity provider also matters greatly) Just a few of of these disadvantages: 1. co-location rack space/cage rental fees are enormous. 2. logistics!! it's alot easier to install and maintain hardware / apps , when you can gain easy physical access. 3. physical security. it's not all that desirable to have your expensive hardware (and the potentially sensitive data -- just ask imbroglio! [:D]) sitting in a large telco building w/ poor access control and security. Here are a few pics of the security equipment (Radionics and ReadyKey access control / CCTV / etc..) protecting some of our gear: You had to see DonR and Ed Sr. bend all of that pipe when they installed everything ! [:D] [img]http://web-comm.com/ool/DSCN0010.jpg[/img] [img]http://web-comm.com/ool/DSCN0009.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 1:13:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: Kar98, do you know the history of Microsoft at all? Where were you in the 1980's when they were formed?... ...If you want to talk software, great. However, your analogy using automobiles is meaningless....
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I realize you were addressing Kar98 here... correction, Microsoft was established in 1975. IMHO Kar98's analogy was more in relation to general market economics... not product engineering.
However, I also have enough experience in this business not to buy into the hype.
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I'm not sure what hype to which you are referring. You don't become the largest company in the USA and the clear leader in global information systems and sustain that position by selling hype.
The major selling point of the Windows OS has always been ease of administration. For years it was a given that UNIX and IBM OSs were superior in every way. Hell, MS didn't even try to compete with them until recently.
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The problem with UNIX is the same as Linux... too many flavors and too many incompatible development tracks. This ultimately led to its downfall. IBM may have had a great operating system at the time, but like Apple, you had to buy their hardware and pay their maintenance and support hijack prices to get it. Bill Gates understood both of these dynamics and gave the market an "augmented product" (Theodore Levitt - The Marketing Imagination).
The thing that sold Windows to business was lower cost of ownership, not superiority.
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I would add ubiquity to that as well. DOS gave people the ability to run a standardized operating system with standard hardware architecture on a variety of brands of machine. This is the phenomenon which ultimately increased the use of desktop computing and brought the prices down to todays levels. Hardware commoditization is the result, which gave end-users the freedom over vendor selection. No longer did they have to be a WANG or an IBM or a DEC shop. They could identify and procure best-of-breed solutions for their needs without paying premium support dollars.
And to aid that effort, MS offered dubious certification, which as we have all seen has proven to be almost worthless.
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Certification was Microsoft's distribution strategy. If you have an army of 10,000,000 VB developers out in the marketplace acting as sales representatives, you don't need to rely as much on traditional distribution channels (OEM, retail, etc..) Additionally, certification has become another subsidiary business, netting MS Press over $1 billion in sales annually just in printed training materials. Not too bad of a hustle if you ask me.
I am not arguing against Windows being easier and cheaper to administer, nor am I saying that Linux is the cure all. But I will say that I am old enough to know better than to jump on any bandwagon, MS or otherwise.
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How is leveraging the technology of a proven leader "jumping on the bandwagon"? The phenomenon in IT where so many technical types adopt the contrarian view of "if it's popular, then it must not be any good" comes directly from the marketplace of 20 years ago. The very one that Microsoft is responsible for bringing to its knees. People hated IBM because they were the big dogs, they had relatively good technology, they were the "hype", they had phenomenal sales, and they were robber barons. IBM has been more 'evil' and greater qualifies as being the 'bandwagon' more than Microsoft could ever hope to be. Just ask the local IT manager who is still forced to use that crappy AS/400 because the company hasn't paid it off yet.
If you want to go into the specifics as to why MS pisses me off, fine. But I don't want to bore people here more than I already have. [:D]
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I'd really love to know why MS pisses you off. Me thinks it's just that contrarian phenomenon that lots of developers like to portray. After all, you can't possibly be worth your salt as a technical person if you don't debate and argue semantic philosophies. Hell, that's half of what we techie guys do on the customer's dime isn't it? [:D]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 1:13:35 PM EDT
OK, I guess I've never really thought about it much but reading this thread I now understand that AR15.com is a pretty involved enterprise and not just some hobby gun board administered by a guy with an old PII from his garage. That gets me curious. Is this site (with all of its admin complexities) the primary commercial venture for the Avilas? Is it split with another family business; is it purely an "extra" and something else is a main business? I surmise that this site takes an incredible amount of effort to manage and cannot image it being run as anything other than a commercial venture for the Avilas--it's just too intensive. Or am I wrong about that? Unless the Avilas are independently wealthy, it seems unlikely that this site could be run as anything other than a venture for profit--that's good BTW, I'd almost hate to think that the Avilas were going to this effort and NOT prospering as a result of it--hell, that's the American way. I understand if Goatboy can't respond for privacy reasons--I'm just curious about the business side of the site.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 1:26:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 1:32:12 PM EDT
BenDover, you really like to open a can of worms, don't you? he he I'm going shooting in a few minutes, but when I get back from the range I'll be glad to respond to your post. Maybe later tonight. [:D]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 1:41:31 PM EDT
[img]http://store.sun.com/images/product_images/Sun_Fire_15K_Server.Image_1_1.UE.jpg[/img] Baah to Microshaft Get a Fire 15k with an oracle backend. Use apache and an E10K for the front end. (As a side benefit we would quickly have the #1 seti team) @ $60 a year it should just about pay for itselfin 50 years[}:D]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 2:22:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2002 2:23:03 PM EDT by Kar98]
Originally Posted By mattja: Kar98, do you know the history of Microsoft at all?
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Yes. And I'll overlook your condescending tone of voice this time.
Where were you in the 1980's when they were formed?
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Western, Central and Eastern Europe. However, MS was founded in the 70s.
Have you used their applications in a professional capacity?
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On more continents than you've heard of ;)
If you want to talk software, great.
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No, I don't want to. Software is a means to an end and not the end. And I was talking arrogant geeks on a power trip, not about software.
However, your analogy using automobiles is meaningless.
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I'm sorry, I'll try yet simpler analogies next time I'm posting something you might read. You clearly didn't understand what I was talking about: No product is perfect, but should companies quit offering new products until the development of said new product has reached the point of perfection? Then we'd still be waiting for the first car.
However, I also have enough experience in this business not to buy into the hype.
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/What/ hype? When I started to use MS products, there /was/ no bandwagon to jump on. DOS, Windows, OS/2, Mac and the 10,000 flavors of Unix all had the same chance back then. My first computers had a HALF bit bus width, fer cryin' put loud :P
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 2:41:39 PM EDT
damn! a post CHOCK FULL of geeks! i prefer my boxes simple, like my beloved kalashnikov! lol! you dweebs would laugh at my dialup, 600 celery and "e machines" mail order discount system! and i'm STILL advocating a return to dos 6.22! heheh! c:\ forever!
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 2:42:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: Membership has its privledges. Sign up. Get speed.
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Lol! I wish. Where did you get that silly idea?
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