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Posted: 10/27/2002 3:40:15 PM EDT
For a long time I have tried to understand what exactly all of the organizational names stand for. I think I have a good grasp for the smaller unit organizations, such as squad (10-14 men), platoon (3 squads), companies (3 platoons), etc. But the larger units I still do not fully understand. What are battalions, regiments, brigades and divisions made up of? How many men in each? I would just like to understand this so when it comes up in a conversation or I hear something on the tv regarding such units, I don't feel totally stupid. Thanks folks for any help. ---Charging Handle
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:11:38 PM EDT
In the US Army it is roughly this: Team: 3-4 men Squad:7-10 Platoon:3-4 squards Company: 3 platoons plus an HQ platoon of 7-10 men Battlion: 6 companies, A,B,C,D,E, and HHQ. E is usually heavy weapons ie. mortars, TOWS etc. Ranger battalions have only 4 companies, A,B,C, and HHQ. The line companies each have a weapons Plt similar to the layout in the Marines. Regiment: 3 or more battalions ALL of whom share a common designation can then qualify for a regimental command structure. In reality, the regiment is an artifact and cerimonial in today's Army. It is really a way to create more officer slots. The only one I am aware of presently operating in 75th Inf, Rangers (Abn.). Brigade: This is a regimental strength combined arms team comprising 2 infantry Bns, 1 armor Bn, 1 artillery Bn, and one air assault bn with AH, HH, MH, RH, and UH craft. A heavy brigade has 2 armor and one infantry Bn. Division: 3 brigades. Remember, this is all totally arbitrary. A division is what we say it is. Same thing for any given troop strength. Does that answer your question?
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:19:38 PM EDT
I'm at work, so I can't tie up too much time - Basically (though I know this sounds like a cop-out), you need to be more specific. Every nation / service / branch is different. I am only qualified to talk US Army, and the numbers vary based on whether you are talking support, tanks, aviation, infantry, etc. I can post a broad overview later if no one beats me to it. Adam
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:23:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2002 4:25:51 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
soylent_green, Yes, that was very helpful and interesting. All of these years of news reports and war movies, I figured it was about time to learn instead of just guessing. Now, taking this a step further, what about the command structure of each of these levels? Is the following anywhere close to correct: Squad - sergeant? platoon - 2nd Lt.? company - 1st Lt. or Captain? battalion - major? brigade - colonel? division - general? I have a book here about the Marine Corps that kinda gets into this subject, but it leaves lots of things out such as rank of the men commanding different unit sizes. Again, thanks. (And yes, I am mostly talking about US Army or Marines infantry units.)
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:24:33 PM EDT
Squad Platoon= 3-4 Squads/w Cmd element & support weapons Company= 3-4 Platoons/w HQ platoon, support platoon & elements Battalion= 3-4 Companies/w HQ company , support companies & elements Regiment= 3-4 Battalions/w HQ Battalion, Support battalions, companies, elements. Brigade 1-2 Reinforced Regiments/w HQ, Support & REMFs Division= 3-4 Combat Regiments, Combat Supports Regiments, Support units, golf courses, VIP units, Permenant Officer's Club, Rod & Gun Club, Monster NCO Club, Hospital, Burger King, Places to get lost. Army= All the cool shit you never get to see.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:33:57 PM EDT
This is for peacetime, in war shit happens, so a lower ranking man may end up standing in a dead/injured man's slot. Team: led by a SPC/E-4, a CPL/E-4, or ideally a SGT/E-5 Squad:led by a SGT/E-5 or ideally a SSG/E-6 Platoon: led by a 2LT/O-1 or a 1LT/O-2 Company: led by a 1LT (usually only in a combat situation, in peacetime, he may take over the Co. as a 1LT, but he is only waiting for his official promotion to arrive, usually within days) or ideally CPT/O-3 Battalion: led by a LTC/O-5. Many a MAJ/O-4 has ended up leading though due to death, illness, or injury. Regiment and brigade: COL/O-6. Depending on circumstance, it is not unusual to see a BG/O-7 commanding either of those in wartime. Division: MG/O-8 or LTG/O-9. Most often a MG, but occasionally a LTG will command a division to get his ticket punched. Anything else?
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:39:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Da_Bunny: Army= All the cool shit you never get to see.
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I spent 5 years active and 3.5 reserve. Where was the cool shit? I never got to see it? I saw GA and FRG and NTC and Bragg and 29 Palms. Where was the cool shit? Were they hiding from us when the Company was out in the freezing rain picking up garbage all over the fucking post? Is that when the cool shit showed up? Maybe the cool shit showed up when I was puking into my K-pot while some hotdog asshole of a C-130 pilot was NOEing his way towards the DZ over flat earth. Is that when the cool shit showed up? I know, the cool shit showed up when I was blind in one eye because I got pseudomonas from a clod of wet dirt on a training mission and my idiot of a squad leader refused to let me get medical treatment and I almost lost my eye. That is why I didn't see it. Right?
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:52:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2002 4:54:34 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
Thanks very much folks for the info. I'll have to print me off a copy of this so I don't forget it. One other thing, if anyone feels like answering it, what are the various ranks of sergeant? I know of buck sergeants, staff sergeants, platoon sergeants, master sergeants and sergeant majors...is this the correct order of rank from lowest to highest? Now I will just shut up for a while, as I have learned more about how the military is run than I have in most of my life. Thanks again all.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 5:18:20 PM EDT
For the US Army ONLY: Enlisted ranks/pay grades: Private, PV1/E1 Private, PV2/E2 Private First Class, PFC/E3 Specialist, SPC/E4 Corporal, CPL/E4 Sergeant(no such thing as a "buck sergeant") SGT/E5 Staff Sergeant, SSG/E6 Sergeant First Class, SFC/E7 Master Sergeant, MSG/E8 First Sergeant, 1SG,E8 Sergeant Major, SGM/E9 correct plural is SERGEANTS Major, not Sergeant Majors. Command Sergeant Major, CSM/E9 Sergeant Major of the Army, SMA/E9 only one of those. Officer ranks Second Lieutenant, 2LT/O1 First Lietenant, 1LT/O2 Captain, CPT/O3 Major, MAJ/O4 Lieutenant Colonel, LTC/O5 Colonel, COL/O6 No such thing as a "bird colonel", it is a colonel. Brigadier General, BG/O7 Major General, MG/O8 Lieutenant General, LTG/O9 General, GEN/O10 General of the Army coloquially known as a "Five Star General", No idea of the rank or pay grade, there hasn't been one since MacArthur. Paygrades for generals don't really matter anyway. Their pay is fixed at $88,000 a year plus expenses if I remember correctly, but that may have changed. I met a captain who was a doctor on base who made more than the commanding general of my base due to professional pay.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 5:51:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 5:59:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2002 6:08:20 PM EDT by Zardoz]
In the US Army Artillery, a Battalion consists of 5 Batteries (companies). 3 Firing Batteries (A,B,& C), "Service" (aka: circus Battery), which contains Battalion-level supply, Maintenance, etc, and "Headquarters" (aka: Hindquarters) Battery, which is pretty much self-explanatory; HHB also has the FOs and their vehicles, who ride with the maneuver units to coordinate, call for, and adjust fire.[left]In a field division, the DIVARTY will have 3 direct support Battalions which provide support for a particular Brigade, plus 1 general support Battalion.[/left][left]When I was in, the direct support Battalions were equipped with the M109A2/3, while general support had the M110A2.[/left][left]Airborne, and Light Infantry divisions are probably organized differently, I dunno, although if they're organized the same way as "Heavy" divisions, I'd imagine that their direct support would be 105s, with 155s filling the general support role.[/left] btw, I'm talkin' about [b]tube[/b] artillery (which we all know is the only [b]REAL[/b] Artillery [;)]), not those pansies who ride around in that MLRS crap (always looked like a furniture van on tracks, to us).
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 6:14:45 PM EDT
OK, I declared myself on break and came back into the fray - To clear up a few misconceptions: The only infantry regiment left in the army with actual command slots is the 75th Ranger Regiment. For all intents and purposes, this and the other true combat arms regiments (2nd, 3rd, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiments being the others) are essentially equal to a brigade - they are brigade level commands slotted for an O-6 (COL). What makes them different is that they do not require division level support elements - they have it them in their organic force structure. All other units, though, have regimental affiliations. Many times there is only oine battalion left with carrying a regiments colors. Current desgnations for US Army Combat Arms Battalion always have a number - hyphen - number designation. For example, my old battalion was 3-43 ADA (PATRIOT). This meant 3rd Battalion, 43rd ADA Regiment. If there is any "regimental commander" it is an honorary thing given to some old retired guy, not an excuse to make more officer slots. The other two battalions in the 43rd ADA regiment belonged two entirely different units. 1-43 ADA is the theater ADA asset here in Korea (I believe it belongs to Eighth US Army, a 3-star general command). If I am not mistaken, 2-43 ADA belongs to 18th Airborne Corps. Confused yet? If you really want to get confused, understand that while Brigade Combat Teams (BCT) as described by Mr. Green may provide Engineer, Artillery, ADA, etc, support - those units are not organic to the maneuver brigade - they actually belong to their own parent organizations and are task-organized under the maneuver brigade commander's operational control as needed. The Brigade Mr. Green describes was likely unique to his particular unit - I have never run into that same structure for a BCT. Maybe he was 1st Cav? The higher up you go, the less the rules apply. The Army adjusts to the needs at hand, after all. Adam
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 6:15:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By soylent_green: General of the Army coloquially known as a "Five Star General", No idea of the rank or pay grade, there hasn't been one since MacArthur.
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I think Omar Bradley was the last 5 star general.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 6:26:11 PM EDT
OK, puzzle me this. Why does the Navy only use the rank of Commodore during wartime? Is it because the Navy needs to fast-track Captains into Rear Admiral Upper Half slots?
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 6:28:48 PM EDT
Hey soylent, concerning the cool shit, you pretty much got it right on . It only shows up when your suckin', and leaves before you know it was there.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 7:00:09 PM EDT
I stand corrected then. Didn't Bradley retire before MacArthur was recalled from Japan? The mind dims, memory fades.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 7:05:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: If you really want to get confused, understand that while Brigade Combat Teams (BCT) as described by Mr. Green may provide Engineer, Artillery, ADA, etc, support - those units are not organic to the maneuver brigade - they actually belong to their own parent organizations and are task-organized under the maneuver brigade commander's operational control as needed. The Brigade Mr. Green describes was likely unique to his particular unit - I have never run into that same structure for a BCT. Maybe he was 1st Cav? Adam
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This applied to the 24th ID when I was there from 1988-1991. The Engineers, arty, etc were all attached to the brigade as organic units. I simply assumed it was the standard model. Adam is right, the rules are whatever the brass want them to be. Flexibility is the key.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 7:17:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 7:21:52 PM EDT
Omar Bradley left active service on August 15, 1953. He died in 1981.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 7:28:17 PM EDT
[url]http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/FAQ-5star.htm[/url] General of the Army George C. Marshall: December 16, 1944 General of the Army Douglas MacArthur: December 18, 1944 General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: December 20, 1944 General of the Army Henry H. Arnold: December 21, 1944 (Redesignated General of the Air Force pursuant to Public Law 58, 81st Congress, approved May 7, 1949): General of the Army Omar N. Bradley: September 20, 1950
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 8:07:02 PM EDT
From the naval aviation side... Air Wing: All the squadrons assigned to a carrier. Led by the CAG (Carrier Air Group, the old designation for "air wing" that won't go away), an O-6 Captain aviator or NFO. The CAG is sort of the "co-captain" of the ship, making decisions of the carrier's movement jointly with the captian of the ship, also an O-6 Captain. Of course, in matters of immediate steerage, the captian of the ship wins. Squadron: About six to eighteen aircraft of the same type. Sometimes, two squadrons with identical aircraft types will be in the same air wing. Led by an O-5 Commander aviator or NFO. Division: A flight of four aircraft, two sections of two. Led in flight by a division lead, an O-4 Lieutenant Commander or senior O-3 Lieutenant. Section: A flight of two aircraft. Led by a section lead, mid-grade LT.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 8:24:32 PM EDT
Most of the info is dead on (some not quite so), but here's some things you might also see (this is Army only, the USMC is different): Troop in Cavalry or Battery in Artillery is the same as Company in the other branchs. Squadron in Cavalry is the same as Battalion. The only "real" regiments in the Army are the Rangers, 160th Aviation, the separate Cavalry regts. The rest are for all prctical purposes just designations. The US Army regimental system makes no sense to ANYONE! Remember that there are all the attendant support units that go along with each type unit that also count. So in a Division you have three line Brigades, a Combat Aviation Brigade, DIVARTY (Brigade sized HQ responsible for artillery in the Div) SUPCOM (all the logistics types) MP Brigade, and other assorted units. As you go up in unit type the more different type units wind up assigned to it. A Company will have it's own rifle companies, but also will have cooks, supply, motor pool(depending), not to mention Mortars, etc. The bigger you get, the more different type units you get. A company or battalion sized unit that's made up from different units (like some Infantry and tanks togehter) is called a Company Team. These organizations are made up for the various situations that come up. A Brigade sized version is called a Task Force. These temporary organizations are the way most actual combat operations are carried out. The Army will almost never fight in a pure unit form because combining the different type units provides a great deal more combat power. That's where the term "combined arms" comes from. So in one mission a Battalion may have more Infantry and in another it may have more tanks, and another it may be balanced between the two. When you're sitting around in garrison (back home, cutting grass) they stay in their nice little formations and organizations, but in training and combat the units get switched around as needed to produce the best mix of forces avilable to do the job. Aviation units operate separate of these because of the high maintenance and support requirements they have. There's no way an Infantry Brigade can suppoort any aircraft. The aircraft may be under the operation control (OPCON) of the battalion, but will almost never be directly attatched like a ground unit because there's no way they can maintain the aircraft and keep them running without all the support structure the CBT AVN Bde has. There is NO organic Aviation unit assigned to a Brigade because of this. The Bde DOES NOT have any helicopter unit assigned to it. Regimental Cavalry has their own organic aircraft, but they also have their own organic artillery and everything else. For practical purposes a Cavalry Regiment is a mini-Division. A Brigade is just a HQ basically, so it can have any number of units assigned to it for a mission. A Corps is a HQ that has two or more divisions. A numbered Army has a reponsibility for a geographical area. An example is the 8th Army in Korea. There is only one Division, and no Corps (since there's only one Div). But if the SHTF in the ROK, everyone (to include all the Divisions and Corps that show up)who will fight there will be under 8th Army. Ross
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 8:38:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ross: The only "real" regiments in the Army are the Rangers, 160th Aviation, the separate Cavalry regts. ...
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Doohhhh! I forgot the 160th SOAR! Good thing some people I know don't read this board (I hope) or I will never live that down! BTW, I've only seen DISCOMs, not SUPCOMs. Soylent-green was pretty darn sure his Brigade had organic artillery and aircraft. I am in no position to prove him wrong, though as a logistician I would hae to have to deal with tanks AND helicopters in !! The Cav Squadrons are trouble enough and they have less tanks and less birds to worry about - and are usually supported by the Aviation support guys for a reason!
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 9:26:01 PM EDT
My apologies for not being a little more clear. The 24th Aviation Bn was a seperate unit tasked to us for support, it was not organic to the brigade. My apologies. The arty most assuredly was, and that is ADA and regular old Battle Kings.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 9:40:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 10:17:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: BTW, I've only seen DISCOMs, not SUPCOMs.
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Actually it should be "DISCOM" there. DIvision Support COMand. Duh, even my mind gets confused. We had a COSCOM at Corps level, and a SUPCOM at Army level. I remember SUPCOM so well because that's what all the non-2ID units had for support. You're right, in all the divisions I was in, it was DISCOM. Ross
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 10:17:16 PM EDT
more Navy confusion..... The Commanding Officer of a ship, submarine or aircraft squadron, regardless of rank, rates the title "Captain" (although no one in aviation uses that title...they use "Skipper") The Commanding Officer of a wing of aircraft, or a squadron of ships/subs, regardless of rank, rates the title "Commodore". This results in a lot of Commanders called Captain, and a lot of Captains called Commodore. People will say it is based on tradition, but it is really done that way just to confuse the AIr Force!
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 12:30:03 AM EDT
Just to make things more fun... Correct - commander of a ship - REGARDLESS of the size of the ship or the actual payrate of the individual, is addressed as "Captain" and has the FINAL operational word on matters concerning that hull - also regardless of the presence of senior officers, unless relieved of command. The ONLY person aboard ship that can give the Captain an order is the Chief Medical Officer (CMO, or Ship's Doctor.) Any Army/Airforce/USMC frocked Captains are given a brevet greade of Major and addressed as such while aboard ship. No Navy ship has more than one "Captain" on board at any time. This even applied to PBR's on the Mekong when a Captain may be along as an observer, but it was commanded by a First Class or a Chief. Navy Captains are promoted to, and addressed as, "Commodore" or "Rear Admiral, Lower Half." This promotion does NOT carry a pay increase, it is simply tradition. In any properly organised ground mission with REMF support, the senior man on the ground with nominal command of the inserted team is the FINAL authority on whatever that team does. Period. The ground commander is well within his rights and responsibilities to his command to override any senior REMF officer when such orders can and will unnecessarily endanger the lives of his men or the materiel for which he is responsible. A buck Sergeant can override a General if such is necessary. Feel better now? Another thing - in the Navy, tradition held that assumption of command - any any particular level - meant you assumed responsibility for your men and materiel TOTALLY. Their failures were your failures. Their successes were your successes. Frankly, this is an attitude which should take greater hold - if a commander had a greater vested interest in the health, well-being, and sucess of his own men, the men would likely be better cared for... FFZ
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 1:41:07 AM EDT
Naval Aviation command structure: Squadrons = Control of aircraft at the user level (the actual fixing and flying) - Example: VRC-30 Wings = Control of type aircraft for maintenance (how to work on them), operations (how to fly them) and administrative (keeping the papr moving) - Example: AEWWINGPAC Carrier Air Wing = Control of different types of squadrons while on board an aircraft carrier - Example: Carrier Airwing Nine Toss in the odd Airstation and AirPac/AirLant assets plus Fleet designations and Task Force structure and there you have it. The Navy did away with the Rank of Commodore in 1985 and replaced it with Rear Admiral (lower half) (0-7) (again). Commanding Officers of Wings and Carrier Air Wings are Captains (0-6) but have the title of Commodore. They are still a Captain. Navy Captains are not called Rear Admiral. The Navy is also thinking of adding a W-5 Rank to the Chief Warrent Officers community (There no Warrent Officers in the Navy, they are all Chief Warrent Officers). Enlisted Personnel in the Navy hold Rate, Naval Officers hold Rank. I have yet to see a Marine, Army or Air Force Captain (0-3) called anything but Captain on an Aircraft Carrier. Have a Fine Navy Day.
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 1:59:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2002 2:09:25 AM EDT by Methos]
[b]Armies[/b] are made up of several Corps and support units during a big war, but in peactime they mainly monitor training of all units in corps for FORSCOM. However, two Armies (3d and 8th) are MACOMs during peacetime exercising strategic C2 in two regions. Army = 1st Army, 3d Army (middle east, but most its units are under FORSCOM in peacetime), 5th Army, and 8th Army (Korea: 2d ID & KATUSAs) [b]Corps[/b] are made up of combat divisions, ACRs, Avn and Artillery Brigades, support bdes & battalions. Corps = I Corps, III Corps, V Corps and XVIII Corps **All following are "Self Sufficient" TO&E units with organic CS and CSS units. However, a corps may assign more aviation, artillery, medical, engineering, and other corps level units as needed. [url=http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/fm101-5-1/f545-aaa.htm#DIVISIONS]Unit Symbols[/url] [b]Combat Divisions:[/b] [img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/LID.gif[/img][img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/AAD.gif[/img] [img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/AbnDiv.gif[/img][img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/AD.gif[/img] [img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/MID.gif[/img][img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/MedDiv.jpg[/img] Light = 7th, 10th Mountain (only has two maneuver bdes), 25th and 29th Infantry Divisions. Air Assault = 101st Airborne Division Airborne = 82d Airborne Division Armored = 1st Armored, 49th Armored, 1st Cavalry Divisions. Mechanized = 1st, 3d, 4th, 24th, 28th, 35th, 38th, 40th, and 42d Infantry Divisions. Medium = 2d and 34th Infantry Divisions. [b]Training and Exercise Divisions:[/b] Although they have fought in WWII, these Divisions are currently not designed to fight. They train and evaluate mainly TO&E units. I dont think they are concerned with TDA units. Training/Exercise = 75th , 78th, 80th, 84th, 85th, 87th, 91st, 95th, 98th, 100th, 104th, and 108th Divisions [b]Combat Regiments/Brigades[/b] [img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/acr_toe.gif[/img][img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/sepbde.gif[/img] [img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/ibde.gif[/img] Armored Cav = 2d, 3d, 11th and 278th ACRs Separate Bde = 27th, 29th, 30, 39, 41, 45, 48, 53, 76, 81, 116th Cav, 155th Armored, 172, 173d Airborne, 218th, 256th Brigades (Separate) Medium Weight Bde = 3rd Brigade of 2nd I.D., and the 1st Brigade of 25th I.D. **Medium Weight Brigades (formerly called IBCTs) use LAVs called the Stryker. Four more existing brigades are scheduled to transform by 2006. [b]Special Operations[/b] Ranger Battalion: [img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/RangerRgt.gif[/img] 75th Ranger Rgmt doesn't doctrinally fight on the battlefield as one big regimental force like the conventional combat brigades/regiments above. 75th Ranger Rgt = 1st, 2d and 3d Ranger Battalions Special Forces Group: [img]http://bin.homestead.com/files/sfg.gif[/img] SFG = 1st, 3d, 5th, 7th, 10th, 19th, 20th Aviation = 160th SOAR Civil Affairs and Psychological units = a bunch of them
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 4:10:48 AM EDT
Methos: I thought I confused the poor guy. Just wanted to add: 2ID is not set up exactly as your "medium division" chart shows. For starters, we have two maneuver brigades forward deployed here in Korea. 1st Brigade has two Armor battalions and one mechanized infantry battalion. 2nd Brigade had two air assault light infantry battalions and one mechanized infantry battalion. Our 3rd Brigade is located in Ft. Lewis, WA and is where the army is testing those new "STRYKER" wheeled LAV looking vehicles. Our DIVARTY had two MLRS battalions in a GS role, plus two M109A6 Howitzer (Paladin) battalions for DS to the maneuver guys. Pretty much everything is a bit off - which just proves the rule - the structure is adapted to the situation at hand. question: What type of unit are those two aviation battalions in your Medium Division's Aviation Brigade supposed to be? I have never seen the symbol used before. It looks like the symbol for a support helicopter - but I have never seen it incorporated into a unit symbol. Our Aviation Brigade has an AH-64D (Longbow) Bn, a UH-60 Bn, and a mixed air / ground cav squadron (M1A1 abrams tanks and Kiowa Warrior aircraft - though they may have other birds too). As you see, nothing really fits the cookie cutter diagrams in the books. They just can't publish 'em fast enough! Adam
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 4:30:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2002 4:36:53 AM EDT by QuietShootr]
Originally Posted By soylent_green:
Originally Posted By Da_Bunny: Army= All the cool shit you never get to see.
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I spent 5 years active and 3.5 reserve. Where was the cool shit? I never got to see it? I saw GA and FRG and NTC and Bragg and 29 Palms. Where was the cool shit? Were they hiding from us when the Company was out in the freezing rain picking up garbage all over the fucking post? Is that when the cool shit showed up? Maybe the cool shit showed up when I was puking into my K-pot while some hotdog asshole of a C-130 pilot was NOEing his way towards the DZ over flat earth. Is that when the cool shit showed up? I know, the cool shit showed up when I was blind in one eye because I got pseudomonas from a clod of wet dirt on a training mission and my idiot of a squad leader refused to let me get medical treatment and I almost lost my eye. That is why I didn't see it. Right?
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BWAHAHAHAHA..were you in my unit? (edited to add - It wasn't that bad...obviously I can't learn from experience anyway - new contract signed 18 Aug 2002.)
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 6:38:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: Methos: I thought I confused the poor guy. Just wanted to add: 2ID is not set up exactly as your "medium division" chart shows. For starters, we have two maneuver brigades forward deployed here in Korea. 1st Brigade has two Armor battalions and one mechanized infantry battalion. 2nd Brigade had two air assault light infantry battalions and one mechanized infantry battalion. Our 3rd Brigade is located in Ft. Lewis, WA and is where the army is testing those new "STRYKER" wheeled LAV looking vehicles. Our DIVARTY had two MLRS battalions in a GS role, plus two M109A6 Howitzer (Paladin) battalions for DS to the maneuver guys. Pretty much everything is a bit off - which just proves the rule - the structure is adapted to the situation at hand. question: What type of unit are those two aviation battalions in your Medium Division's Aviation Brigade supposed to be? I have never seen the symbol used before. It looks like the symbol for a support helicopter - but I have never seen it incorporated into a unit symbol. Our Aviation Brigade has an AH-64D (Longbow) Bn, a UH-60 Bn, and a mixed air / ground cav squadron (M1A1 abrams tanks and Kiowa Warrior aircraft - though they may have other birds too). As you see, nothing really fits the cookie cutter diagrams in the books. They just can't publish 'em fast enough! Adam
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The 2ID is a horse of a different color than anything. Because of the uniqueness of it's mission, it's tailored for the Korean penninsula. That's infantry country but you need the heavy maneuver element as well. Hence the oddball mix of heavy and light forces. It's one of the few Army units that's not expected to deploy anywhere, because it's already there! The Aviation symbols for the MD are (top to bottom): CAB-MD HHC-CAB AHB-Attack Helicopter Bn (I believe the symbol is incorrect here as every division, regardless of type, has attack helicopter Bn(s)) Armored Cav Sqn-It should be two ground troops with Brads and one air troop. CSAB-Cbt Spt Avn Bn, new name for an Assault Helicopter Bn (they always want to change names of stuff for no good reason) LRS-Long Range Surv Det. LRSD, LRRP, whatever you want to call them this week. They are nearly always getting inserted by the aircraft, and the scout mission goes hand in hand with the Cav guys, so it's as good a place as any. CAB's are remarkably uniform throughout the Army. The Heavy divisions get an extra Attack Bn, and reduced lift. The light Divs (LI, Airborne) get one BN of each attack and assault. The Airborne division has an additonal ground Cav troop giving it three ground and one air. The Air Assault Div gets alot more aircraft obviously (the 101st is something like the 14th largest airforce in the world). They get an additional Assalut Bn, a Med lift Bn (CH-47), three more Attack Bns (that was our version of a tank) and the CAV sqn has 4 air troops and no ground troops. There's an Aviation Intermeadiate Maintenance Bn instead of company to keep everything running (each Avn Bn already has an Aviation Unit Maintenace Company). Also not shown on the chart is a permanently attatched 155mm (towed) Battalion. The M in MTOE means Modified, so there's few organizations that actually fit EXACTLY the wiring diagram. Ross
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 12:50:04 PM EDT
I obtained the diagrams for the first five type divisions (LID through ID(Mech)) from a TOE handbook that was issued to me in 1993 and obtained the diagram for Medium Division from [url=http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/71-100/toc.htm]FM 71-100[/url] "Division Operations" dated 1996. The diagrams show the basic structure of the different types of divisions, but through the years as a result from changes in doctrine, new technology/equipment, training experience, and the different regions on earth which certain divisions are oriented towards, mutations will occur in each. Hence, the MTOEs. Consequently, the 1st Cavarly Division does not mirror in detail the 1st Armored Division although both are armored. Similarly, the 1st I.D. (Mech) does not look exactly like the 4th I.D. (Mech) since the 4th is being tested as a "digitized/force XXI" division. With regard to the Avn symbols, as a combat engineer, I am not well versed in aviation matters; however, Ross seems to have a good handle on it. Hehe... i think we've thoroughly confused Charging_Handle by now. [:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 9:17:09 PM EDT
I once called the Captain of the Vella Gulf, an AEGIS cruiser, "Skipper." I was aboard as a cross-deck, PR, transplant thing for one night and was spending my time with the helo bubbas. It was somewhat carrier-like, except for the Hollywood showers and the formal meals; I had to lose the bag and put on the khakis. We went to the wardroom, sat in assigned spots, and waited for the CO to get served. Anyway, since I was the novelty 1200 knot guy who'd been feet dry in a 25 knot room of feet wet guys, he was even talking to me, a lowly O-3. At some point, I naturally called him Skipper, honestly no disrespect intended. It was as if someone dragged the needle across the record. Everybody stopped and waited to see what would happen. The CO gave me a pained grimace and a long pause before curtly answering my response and then turning his attention to one of his senior officers. Evidently, a little faux pas like that is big news on the small boys, and I was the rebellious hero for the rest of my stay there. Weird formality politics in the black-shoe navy.
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 10:30:06 PM EDT
As there has been so many confusing answers concerning rank / grade / position / title, (all of which I understood, except the Navy ones)I feel that I should only ADD to the confusion and ask where Warrant officers fit into the scheme? Do Warrant Officers command, Can they legally command, do they have a commision? how do you address Warrants? Ed <<
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 11:55:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By elcope: As there has been so many confusing answers concerning rank / grade / position / title, (all of which I understood, except the Navy ones)I feel that I should only ADD to the confusion and ask where Warrant officers fit into the scheme? Do Warrant Officers command, Can they legally command, do they have a commision? how do you address Warrants? Ed <<
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but US Army Warrant Officers become commissioned upon receiving CW3. Warrant officers CAN command, and I have known them to. Most prefer not to. Then again, so do many captains. I address warrants any dang way I want, but usually as Mr. / Ms. or just "chief" (some get all riled up about "chief," though). Every once in a while I call them sir or ma'am - was around too many pilots in my enlisted days and the habit has stuck.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 2:50:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White:
Originally Posted By elcope: As there has been so many confusing answers concerning rank / grade / position / title, (all of which I understood, except the Navy ones)I feel that I should only ADD to the confusion and ask where Warrant officers fit into the scheme? Do Warrant Officers command, Can they legally command, do they have a commision? how do you address Warrants? Ed <<
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but US Army Warrant Officers become commissioned upon receiving CW3. Warrant officers CAN command, and I have known them to. Most prefer not to. Then again, so do many captains. I address warrants any dang way I want, but usually as Mr. / Ms. or just "chief" (some get all riled up about "chief," though). Every once in a while I call them sir or ma'am - was around too many pilots in my enlisted days and the habit has stuck.
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[b]Adam[/b] .... I thought that a few years back, all Warrant Officers became commissioned. I could be BADLY mistaken! My boss back in USASOC, then CW[b]4[/b] Simmons, I thought was running your company as a CW5 before you took command(?). I came up through Aviation and had to deal with tons of Warrants. If I didn't know them I called them "Sir" or "Ma'am", and if I knew them I'd call them "Chief". Nowadays here in Yongsan I call them "Chief", and haven't had any of them get uptight. I'd NEVER heard of a "SUPCOM", but after looking on the 'Net I guess they had/have them in Europe. In USASOC I was in the Support Command, "SOSCOM", or [b]S[/b]pecial [b]O[/b]perations [b]S[/b]upport [b]Com[/b]mand. Chris
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 3:15:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mrcr0603:
Originally Posted By Adam_White:
Originally Posted By elcope: As there has been so many confusing answers concerning rank / grade / position / title, (all of which I understood, except the Navy ones)I feel that I should only ADD to the confusion and ask where Warrant officers fit into the scheme? Do Warrant Officers command, Can they legally command, do they have a commision? how do you address Warrants? Ed <<
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but US Army Warrant Officers become commissioned upon receiving CW3. Warrant officers CAN command, and I have known them to. Most prefer not to. Then again, so do many captains. I address warrants any dang way I want, but usually as Mr. / Ms. or just "chief" (some get all riled up about "chief," though). Every once in a while I call them sir or ma'am - was around too many pilots in my enlisted days and the habit has stuck.
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[b]Adam[/b] .... I thought that a few years back, all Warrant Officers became commissioned. I could be BADLY mistaken!
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I posted that really quick while grabbing lunch. The more I think about it, I am pretty sure it is actuall at CW2 that the commission occurs. I think WO1s are still just a Service secretary appointment. I'm sure when ol' Ed returns he'll be glad to let me know if I'm wrong [:)].
My boss back in USASOC, then CW[b]4[/b] Simmons, I thought was running your company as a CW5 before you took command(?).
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I knew ol' Buster Jr. well. We both live and breathe maintenance so we got along. He may have stepped in as acting commander here for a while, but he was never the actual commander. When I knew him I was working on Division staff and thus not in this company. My predecessor was a CPT Armstrong.
I came up through Aviation and had to deal with tons of Warrants. If I didn't know them I called them "Sir" or "Ma'am", and if I knew them I'd call them "Chief". Nowadays here in Yongsan I call them "Chief", and haven't had any of them get uptight.
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I've only seen it twice - each time was due to a SGM pushing them too far. You know the type - the ones who refuse to call officers "Sir" and instead call them by their rank. Both SGMs deserved being locked up and corrected in each case. The use of "chief" wasn't the underlying issue by any means. I've never seen a warrant take issue with "chief" when the proper respect was still evident. Adam
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 6:37:23 AM EDT
Warrant Officers are commissioned at CW2 nowdays I beleive. It allows them to hold leadership positions, adminster oaths, etc. I have mixed feelings about the idea. I was a Commissioned officer and we had several Platoons being lead by Warrant Officers for extended periods of time before the Commissioned Warrant idea came about. A Commission (my regular or a Warrant's) doesn't mean squat. You can either lead or you can't. Many of the Warrants were prior NCOs, so it's not like they didn't know how to lead. Some guys couldn't lead weather they were Warrants or Captains. They just sucked at it. I thought it was a dis-service to the Warrants because it was like the Army was getting cheap labor. I mean if the guy wanted to put up with the Commissioned BS of leadership, then he should be given a regular commision and payed to do the job. The Warrants had a lower pay schedule and it was like the Army was just ripping them off. I never put a Warrant in a Platoon Leader slot that couldn't handle it, and they always did great, it's just that the guy's job was to be a skilled technician, not a general purpose officer. I just thought they were getting abused by the green machine. We always stuck them in leadership slots anyway when there wasn't enough line officers to go around before they thought up commissioning them. I just don't see the change it made, other than legitimizing the crap we were already doing to acomplish the mission in the face of personell shortages. To answer the question of were Warrant Officers fit in, they are highly skilled technicians that rate an officer rank, but are not normally considered to be burdened with command responsibiility (read that as putting up with CMD BS) because they are concerned with technical matters. The easiest to understand example is the Aviation Branch. Warrant Officers are most of the aviators in the Army. Their main purpose is to provide that technical skill of aviation. There are also Regular Commissioned officers in Aviation (like I was), whose primary concern is the duties of leadership and command (i.e. putting up with the BS). Generally speaking, Warrants fly much more than Commisioned guys. The Warrant Officer provides that core skill that allows the regular officer to fight his company on the battlefield. In other fields it's similar, the Warrant Officer provides the technical expertise that a regular officer just won't get punching tickets. The result in Aviation though is that rank was not the determining factor in who was the Pilot-in-Command, skill was. I was a CPT. I was a PIC(Pilot-in Command), UT(Unit Trainer), MTP(Maitenance Test Pilot). Still, there were many missions that one of the Warrant Officers was better suited to be the PIC. I would be his co-pilot even though I outranked him. Other missions I would be better suited to be the PIC, and that same Warrant Officer would be my co-pilot. Rank was never an issue and never even a consideration in crew selection. Only who was best for the job. There was NEVR any problem with it that I ever heard of either. A little different than the way the rest of the Army works, but it's the only way to work it with Aviation. Here's a pic of me close to K-16, Seoul AB, Republic of Korea. [img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0MgAAAE8Qw4dgfXXB8SFOHRcyVK6MZEEjv9SYcMndd!qE­chxAdPPOFOiCD2vq3LXAl0v93KEMLLfbuLR0Z6Vysg/HueyROK(1).jpg[/img] Ross
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 8:05:08 AM EDT
This is pretty interesting stuff. Now for a simple question: Why is a Lt. General higher a rank than a Major General? Never quite figured that out. "Brigadier General, BG/O7 Major General, MG/O8 Lieutenant General, LTG/O9 General, GEN/O10"
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 8:33:46 AM EDT
All this confusion about ranks, unit organizations, etc.....don't you folks realize it's all for the purpose of keepin' enemy MI types from getting a handle on how we do things?[left]Btw, [b]Ross[/b], aren't you supposed to park it on BOTH skids? Lemme guess......one of 'em had a flat, right?[/left][:D]
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 9:33:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ross: Here's a pic of me close to K-16, Seoul AB, Republic of Korea. [url]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0MgAAAE8Qw4dgfXXB8SFOHRcyVK6MZEEjv9SYcMndd!qE­chxAdPPOFOiCD2vq3LXAl0v93KEMLLfbuLR0Z6Vysg/HueyROK(1).jpg[/url] Ross
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Wow, K-16 sure looks different now. I've only been there once - was in a UH-60 heading to Cp. Carrol that had s [i]minor[/i] mishap. Seems the front right window decided to pop right out. NOthing like the damage i t sems yo managed to do to your Huey! Anyway, I wasn't there long before we swapped aircraft - but I don't remember a grassy field - it was all paved. Someday I oughta take some pics of some of the bases arounf here, Seoul, etc. (yeah, like I ever get time to play tourist) to give som of you old timers a kick - you would likely be amazed how things have changed. Adam
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 9:57:53 AM EDT
[url]leav-www.army.mil/wocc/whatiswo.htm[/url]
"Warrant officers are highly specialized, single-track specialty officers who receive their authority from the Secretary of the Army upon their initial appointment. However, Title 10 USC authorizes the commissioning of warrant officers (WO1) upon promotion to chief warrant officer (CW2). These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. Warrant officers can and do command detachments, units, activities, and vessels as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. As leaders and technical experts, they provide valuable skills, guidance, and expertise to commanders and organizations in their particular field." (Para A-3, Field Manual 22-100) Candidates who successfully complete Warrant Officer Candidate School are appointed in the grade of Warrant Officer One. When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts. However, warrant officers remain single-specialty officers whose career track is oriented towards progressing within their career field rather than focusing on increased levels of command and staff duty positions.
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IOW: yup, they're commissioned at CW2, they can and do command, but its not really their job. Also, according to [url=http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_20.pdf]AR 600-20 (link to PDF file)[/url], the rank structure goes from lowest to highest: enlisted, nco's, cadets, warrant officers, commissioned officers, general officers.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 10:01:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By monkeyman: This is pretty interesting stuff. Now for a simple question: Why is a Lt. General higher a rank than a Major General? Never quite figured that out. "Brigadier General, BG/O7 Major General, MG/O8 Lieutenant General, LTG/O9 General, GEN/O10"
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from [url]www.mantecausd.net/MHS/armyhist.htm[/url]
With the word "General" introduced, we can begin to understand why a Lieutenant General came to outrank a Major (Sergeant) General at a time when organizations of greater size came into being. Simply stated, the concept is that a lieutenant general acts in the absence of a "full" general; and the major general is the principal servientum to the "full" general. Eventually, a third hyphenated general officer rank of brigadier general was created to command a brigade, when this size of unit was needed to control the march or camp of several regiments.
Much more detailed information is available at that link.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 11:09:35 AM EDT
As a dumb civie, I found this helpful: [url=http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/CARS-QA.htm]Combat Arms Regimental System Q & A[/url]
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 11:57:38 AM EDT
A combat unit is assigned a mission or type of mission. As originally established, they are given a Table of Organization (men) and Equipment (what they get to do the job). When the job changes, they can modify the TO&E to fit the new mission. MTO&E. No two units may necessarily be alike due to the MTO&E's they have. When I was in a CAB company in Germany, we were a part of the 1st Armored Division, but were assigned to support Canadian and German units. (C Co., 501st CAB, 1st AD) There is also a difference between flight warrants and "walking" warrants. Flight warrants are mostly just pilots and usually dumb as stumps for maintenance tasks. Walking warrants are usually maintenance specialists.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 7:49:18 PM EDT
WOW, I have to admit that I am impressed at the level of knowledge concerning an obscure rank structure. All of the responses concerning Warrants are true, OR were at one time. in the beginning Warrants were not commisioned at all, now it is at CW2, though at one time it began at the CW3 level. Interesting factoid, the Air Force is the only American armed service to NOT have Warrant Officers, those that they inherited from the Army when they became USAF were allowed to remain until retirement, the last one retired in the 1970's. Ed
Link Posted: 10/30/2002 2:32:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2002 2:35:58 AM EDT by Ross]
I suppose I'm dating myself, but I remember when the last two USAF Warrants were still serving! The Navy tried to get rid of Warrants a while back if I'm not mistaken as well, but it didn't quite work out. Adam- You'll notice I said "near". The aircraft didn't quite make it. Actually that wasn't my handywork. One of my jobs was to just pick up the pieces and clean up the messes, and provide support to the accident investigation teams from Rucker. Six years as an MTP did have it's moments, but this wasn't my doing. The Huey was doing a GS mission transporting VIPs to K-16. Engine quit and the guy brought it down. The rice paddy was pretty sticky and it nosed over and the main rotor hit the ground (you can see it bent). The tailboom bent with the impact. No one killed but a couple had to go to the hospital. In my one year in-country, we had an OH-58 hit a mountain, two Cobras hit each other at night (aided), killing one crew, the Huey there, and another Huey that was shot down by the North Koreans. They landed on our side, so it didn't even make the US papers. Ross
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