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Posted: 10/27/2002 9:02:34 AM EDT
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66800,00.html[/url] Pretty sad, I'm sure it wasn't intentional, the gas became fatal after it wasn't dispersed and the people were already weak from days of only water + candy bars. Most of the terrorists died from the gas also. Those 100+ people are better than all of them dying from explosives but still, it's a terrible thing to have had happen.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 9:13:22 AM EDT
[putting on tin foil hat] What if they used Vx or some other gas and the people that died did not get the antidote in time? [taking off tin foil hat]
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 9:16:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2002 9:22:26 AM EDT by Winston_Wolf]
... most of those that perished did so by drowning in their own vomit. [edited] ... except these assholes [img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20021026/mdf136464.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 10:09:33 AM EDT
The big problem seems to be the typically Russian lack of communication between the various "cells" in the Russian government. NO one told the civilian medical services what chemical the Spetznas and OMON guys used so they could be treated afterward. Because its a "secret".
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 12:13:58 PM EDT
Well, the t's died, and about 100 hostages, on the other hand, using it prevented the t's from detonating all bombs, and killing everyone. I think about 600 lived. I think it was the best decision that could be made. Good work. TXLEWIS
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 12:20:16 PM EDT
The best part is the next group of terrorists that plans this will know to expect a serious ass kicking from the Russian S.F.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 2:26:53 PM EDT
Reuters is reporting most of the terrorists died from multiple gun shots to the head as they were unconscious from the sleeping gas (good, may they rot in hell), while they also report several experts believe the gas was an aerolized form of Valium.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 2:32:01 PM EDT
I am guessing that it would have been impossible to control the dosage that folks received. Some probably got way more than was expected, some got less. As Kroagnon suggests, the weak condition of the hostages didn't help either.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 3:10:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 3:17:19 PM EDT
Agent K..... Scott
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 3:25:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2002 3:52:26 PM EDT by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 3:31:54 PM EDT
To shoot or not shoot the unconscious terrorists is an interesting choice, and I mean for US law enforcment and military, not just the wild East of Russia. If the come to they can blow themselves up. You're not quite sure how long they'll be out. And disarming the explosives strapped to them might be difficult and time-consuming. So a shot between the eyes might not be a bad choice even in the US, with a bunch of lawyers and a court looking over your shoulder.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 3:41:23 PM EDT
I was very impressed when it all went down. I was really wondering how in the hell they were going to handle it. Bradd
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 3:44:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mcgredo: To shoot or not shoot the unconscious terrorists is an interesting choice, and I mean for US law enforcment and military, not just the wild East of Russia. If the come to they can blow themselves up. You're not quite sure how long they'll be out. And disarming the explosives strapped to them might be difficult and time-consuming. So a shot between the eyes might not be a bad choice even in the US, with a bunch of lawyers and a court looking over your shoulder.
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Doubtful if you would ever see a FBIer saying "We went from terrorist to terrorist, plugging them in the forehead to make sure they didn't wake up." ATF, maybe..... The Septznaz guy they quoted said something pretty close to that very statement. "We shot them in the head while they were still sleeping", etc...... Scott
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 4:49:00 PM EDT
Shooting a bomb-laden person in the head while he is asleep is an easy choice IMHO. What if he is unusually resistant to the gas? What if he wakes up and pulls the cord? Our standard "use of deadly force" statutes would cover such a scenario. It is unfortunate that so many hostages died from the gas. It does seem that they could have had some more planning - had tons of medics at the scene, with antidotes, if available, etc. They could have saved a few lives.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 8:27:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: Agent K..... Scott
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Yes but what is the mysterious Agent K?
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 7:54:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl: Shooting a bomb-laden person in the head while he is asleep is an easy choice IMHO. What if he is unusually resistant to the gas? What if he wakes up and pulls the cord? Our standard "use of deadly force" statutes would cover such a scenario. It is unfortunate that so many hostages died from the gas. It does seem that they could have had some more planning - had tons of medics at the scene, with antidotes, if available, etc. They could have saved a few lives.
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People are still dying in the hospital because the Spetznaz [b]won't tell them what gas they used![/b] The Russians can't seem to shake the Soviet attitude toward their people, can't they?
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 7:57:09 AM EDT
From CNN Paul Beaver, of the London-based security and defence consultancy Ashbourne Beaver Associates, said the operation would be considered a success in military terms, defined as fewer than 30 percent casualties.
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 8:20:48 AM EDT
This is a disaster. There is no excuse for loosing all those hostages. The only time you should use sleep gas to neutralize a terrorist is in a James Bond movie. There is a reason you have an Anesthesiologist present when they put you under in a hospital and that is because there is a high risk of death. Terrorist with explosives holding hostages is a common scenario. Counter Terrorist Groups like U.S Army’s Delta train for this situation all the time. They use a variety of tactics to neutralize the Tango’s and rescuing the hostages. They use explosives, flash bang grenades, speed, stealth and sharp shooting. Remember the success at the Japanese embassy in South America a few years ago. Did they loose any hostages on that one?
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 9:18:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By attack: This is a disaster. There is no excuse for loosing all those hostages. The only time you should use sleep gas to neutralize a terrorist is in a James Bond movie. There is a reason you have an Anesthesiologist present when they put you under in a hospital and that is because there is a high risk of death. Terrorist with explosives holding hostages is a common scenario. Counter Terrorist Groups like U.S Army’s Delta train for this situation all the time. They use a variety of tactics to neutralize the Tango’s and rescuing the hostages. They use explosives, flash bang grenades, speed, stealth and sharp shooting. Remember the success at the Japanese embassy in South America a few years ago. Did they loose any hostages on that one?
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How many hostages and perps were involved in the Japanese embassy takeover? The problem with this scenario is that there were 700+ people in one large room and explosives attached to the structure itself. There is no way you would be fast enough to neutralize 50 terrorists quickly enough to prevent disaster. The building would have collapsed and then you would have 800+ dead. This was an extreme scenario, hardly the run of the mill hostage situation, and required extreme measures. What they did need was better after action support to deal with the survivors. You also have to take into consideration that most hostage-takers don't want to die so you can usually negotiate. That was not the case here. The outcome was going to be disasterous regardless. The object was to take the best of the worst and have as few deaths as possible. Bradd
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 9:23:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 9:33:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: So when are the class action suits against the Russian government going to start rolling in? Over 600 were hosipitalized and the death toll is still growing. If our government killed a hundred or more people imagine what it would have cost us to pay off the families [:)] Yeah, I know Waco.
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Got to love that Federal immunity! [;)] Bradd
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