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Posted: 10/26/2002 10:38:47 AM EDT
Here is a translation of a portion of russian article that described conversation of correspondent with one of the special forces (spetsnaz) "alpha" guys who stormed the building (this you are not going to find in western media : ) At about three am, the spetsnaz "leaked" that the storm was about to begin.  Nothing happened at that time, so the chechens relaxed.  At about 5 am, the sleeping gas was let in into the ventilation system. After the gas has had effect, first and foremost, alpha fighters destroyed the female chechens with suicide bomber belts.  "Our fighters just walked into the theater and just shot at close range sleeping terorrists. In the head."  However, some hostages panicked and run out into the lobby, where they were shot by the chechens in the corridors and lobby. In the building they found 2000 kg of explosives, with majority placed under support pillars, some placed in passageways and on suicide belts.  More than 750 hostages were freed, about 90 died.  Fifty terrorists were killed: 32 men, and 18 women.  Three terrorists captured, and a few escaped. I love the whole "shot in the head at close range while they were sleeping" part! Fantastic way to deal with $hitbag terrorist if you ask me!
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 10:45:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 10:48:36 AM EDT
i had already figured thats what they did after the sleeping gas. my wife and i were discussing that senario last night. good for them but how the hell did some escape?????????????????
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 10:54:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AggieAlum: After the gas has had effect, first and foremost, alpha fighters destroyed the female chechens with suicide bomber belts
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where in the US are you gonna find 18 year old boys willing to do this kind of work? to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 10:58:52 AM EDT
Cohiba, the enemy is disposable in a most prejudicial way. I'm overjoyed that this was carried out like this. No future bomber bitches.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:03:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2002 11:05:32 AM EDT by AggieAlum]
To deal w/ T's, you just gotta take care of business plain and simple. NO F&%KING around when it comes to anyone with a bomb strapped to them in your vicinity! You must take out the Bomber Bitches first. You wouldn't want any of them waking up and "pushing the button!"
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:07:48 AM EDT
Hmmm, makes you wonder about the idea of giving those with the weakest constitution the devices that provide the most deterrent. Smaller body mass, they are gonna sleep the quickest. In the future, I don't think they will make the same mistake. Remember, every encounter is a learning experience for BOTH sides. WWoodworth
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:09:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cohiba: to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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Hey Pussy, Bone up on American history. We have a great tradition of killing in the most brutal and inhumane ways. Our society survives. Based on you asinine statement, what is the alternative?
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:13:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cohiba:
Originally Posted By AggieAlum: After the gas has had effect, first and foremost, alpha fighters destroyed the female chechens with suicide bomber belts
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where in the US are you gonna find 18 year old boys willing to do this kind of work? to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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I guess you must have missed our use of nuclear weapons, and the carpet/fire bombing of German and Japanese cities. We murdered hundreds of thousands of enemy civilians indiscriminately because it was the single quickest way to end the war (no people to work in factories to make weapons, no population base to put in uniform with a rifle).
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:14:49 AM EDT
Those assholes deserved no less. I'm really glad that Russia didn't capitulate; if they had you'd be seeing a wholesale escalation in the magnitude of these kinds of hostage situations. And they'd be popping up all over the place. 700 hostages surrounded by an assload of terrorists with bombs strapped to themselves is an incredibly daunting thing... I think Putin handled it as well as he possibly could.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:14:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:15:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2002 11:20:20 AM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
I heard a Russian Offical use a word I had not heard come out of the Russians mouths in a long time last night....He was refering to Chechnia The word was LIQIUDATE. If I lived in the city of Grosney or there abouts...I think I would be looking for a place to hide. ...Because hells coming to breakfast. One must remember that the motto of the Russian Army has always been "Anything worth doing, is worth overdoing"
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:16:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By cohiba: to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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Hey Pussy, Bone up on American history. We have a great tradition of killing in the most brutal and inhumane ways. Our society survives. Based on you asinine statement, what is the alternative?
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Even though I agree with your statement, why call names? It lessens your impact and puts all of those who agree with you in the same "bad" light...
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:28:58 AM EDT
When good destroys evil, good is still good. I don't believe we "lower" ourselves to the terrorists level when we kill them by any means available. We are good, they are evil. Reguardless of how we kill them, we are still good.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:35:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By cohiba: to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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Hey Pussy, Bone up on American history. We have a great tradition of killing in the most brutal and inhumane ways. Our society survives. Based on you asinine statement, what is the alternative?
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Even though I agree with your statement, why call names? It lessens your impact and puts all of those who agree with you in the same "bad" light...
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Why? Because we are not in an academic environment. I view the general discussion board as a bunch of guy sitting around bullsh-ting. Would you prefer: Kind sir, Please review the compiled history of our nation. If you choose to, you will find many instances of our ancestors dispatching not only indigenous peoples of this land but of many other lands in a way that is most indiscriminate. Often with such brutality that is has represented a watershed. You see kind sir, although we may have approached the darker angels of our nature, we have persevered. Your statement, although sensitive in its nature, does not provide relief for the current conflict.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:38:36 AM EDT
Waco, anybody?
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:39:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF: Waco, anybody?
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Huh?
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:39:57 AM EDT
I'm just curious...how do you think the US would have handled a situation like this? Bradd
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:46:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bradd D: I'm just curious...how do you think the US would have handled a situation like this? Bradd
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Given the current atmosphere.. Similarly.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:51:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 11:59:43 AM EDT
Pussy, pussy, pussy, pussy![:P]
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:25:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:32:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:38:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan: I wonder how many civilian deaths were from bad reactions to the anasthetic and how many from gun shots
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Good point. I only hope that even with our better technology we could do better. In the current enviroment the public would support this. But would the government have the courage, and you know what the press would be saying.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:42:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cohiba:
Originally Posted By AggieAlum: After the gas has had effect, first and foremost, alpha fighters destroyed the female chechens with suicide bomber belts
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where in the US are you gonna find 18 year old boys willing to do this kind of work? to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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Indeed. "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you." -Nietzsche
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:43:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By Sylvan: I wonder how many civilian deaths were from bad reactions to the anasthetic and how many from gun shots
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Good point. I only hope that even with our better technology we could do better. In the current enviroment the public would support this. But would the government have the courage, and you know what the press would be saying.
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Given our litigous society I don't think US law enforcement would use anesthesia. You can bet the family of a hostage killed by a reaction to the gas would sue anybody and everybody involved. Bradd
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:43:47 PM EDT
Terminated with extreme prejudice. No mercy.. Good job Russia!!! -T.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:48:06 PM EDT
i think waco is a good point. here we just burn everything to the ground and screw the hostages. what? there were no hostages at the compound in waco. lets not forget the children who were tormented by tear gas then burned to death.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:48:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2002 12:54:14 PM EDT by BlackDog714]
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By cohiba: to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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Hey Pussy, Bone up on American history. We have a great tradition of killing in the most brutal and inhumane ways. Our society survives. Based on you asinine statement, what is the alternative?
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Even though I agree with your statement, why call names? It lessens your impact and puts all of those who agree with you in the same "bad" light...
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Why? Because we are not in an academic environment. I view the general discussion board as a bunch of guy sitting around bullsh-ting. Would you prefer: Kind sir, Please review the compiled history of our nation. If you choose to, you will find many instances of our ancestors dispatching not only indigenous peoples of this land but of many other lands in a way that is most indiscriminate. Often with such brutality that is has represented a watershed. You see kind sir, although we may have approached the darker angels of our nature, we have persevered. Your statement, although sensitive in its nature, does not provide relief for the current conflict.
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No... Say exactly what you said, but don't start out with calling someone a pussy... 82ndAbn said it better than me anyway. I was over at DU and my brain was starting to melt.[puke] PS. Yeah you could say that too... If fact it is quite direct and too the point. I just feel that if we can get our points across w/o bashing each other and/or calling names, maybe the sheeples trolling here might get a different opinion of us.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 12:59:39 PM EDT
Given our litigous society I don't think US law enforcement would use anesthesia. You can bet the family of a hostage killed by a reaction to the gas would sue anybody and everybody involved.
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Oh I don't think we would use any form of CW. Both Delta and DevGru, from what I hear, HATE CW because they have to wear masks or MOPP gear and that screws up their hearing and visability when trying to clear the place. I wonder if the Russians simply pumped in NO2? That was a big place, they would have needed a large quantity of whatever. The FBI I don't think would try to gas more than a single room anymore after Waco. Hopefully they have learned to read the manufacturers instructions now if they try again, like the warning about "DO NOT USE AROUND OPEN FLAME"
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 1:04:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 1:15:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 1:39:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Originally Posted By Sylvan: I called this at work yesterday. Gas was about the only option. They wouldn't take food so you couldn't drug them that way. People who are determined to die and have rigged explosives will always win unless knocked out first. After the first breach, all it takes is one to pull the fuse igniter and bring down the house. I don't care who they are or how much they hate masks, I don't see any other options for this op. Gas is particularly subtle for Russians BTW. The biggest disadvantage is that gas is very hard on old people. I am willing to bet more casualties were from gas than gunshot, at least for those over the age of 60 I don't care
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I agree. If I had a relative or friend in that theater who died as a result of the anesthesia, I'd be angry at the terrorists - not the Ruskies. Had the Reds not done anything, that relative or friend would've been killed anyway.
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Unfortunately, there are Americans who would relish the opportunity to make a buck off of a dead relative. Bradd
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 3:22:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By cohiba: to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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Hey Pussy, Bone up on American history. We have a great tradition of killing in the most brutal and inhumane ways. Our society survives. Based on you asinine statement, what is the alternative?
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interesting, any specific lessons you would suggest i "bone up on"? i must have picked up my liberal views from th USMC or perhaps working s a cop. 1 thing is quite obvious. you, young man have never had to take a life. and for the motivated 31 year old former 82nd, let me get this right... you actually would like to stand before GOD and say you enjoyed shooting to death a sleeping women? you guys are right, i am a pussy. thank GOD for that. now i can sleep. i can imagine that if i were killed in a war my wife would have the respect for my memory to strap explosives to her body and fight the power that took my life. i guess you guys think the American Indians were terrorist, too.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 3:47:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 4:28:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: God would be proud that I sent that heathen terrorist Muslim straight to hell.
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82nd does have a point here. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 4:34:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 5:04:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bradd D: I'm just curious...how do you think the US would have handled a situation like this? Bradd
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More than 750 hostages were freed, about 90 died. Fifty terrorists were killed: 32 men, and 18 women.
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I dont think we have the balls to do anything even remotely like this. Not to mention Americans cant seem to handle even a single person dying for the fight against evil let alone unarmed civilians.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 8:39:36 PM EDT
It was dealt with very professionally and there will be no repeat offenders.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 8:54:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: In the current enviroment the public would support this. But would the government have the courage, and you know what the press would be saying.
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Call me a cynic, but it seems to me the US press would be so focused on the type of explosives and firearms used by the terrorists - and where they were obtained - that they wouldn't get to pondering such use of force issues for some time. Adam
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 8:58:29 PM EDT
You have a point there Adam.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 9:08:21 PM EDT
They wouldn't have to wait for the press. Each of the 90 victims, the dead terrorists, their surviving family members and the survivors would have been contacted by at least a dozen trial lawyers by now offering representation in a Billion $ lawsuit for wrongful damage and excessive use of force. Fortunately for the Russians, they haven't mastered that aspect of capitalism yet.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 9:08:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cohiba:
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By cohiba: to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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Hey Pussy, Bone up on American history. We have a great tradition of killing in the most brutal and inhumane ways. Our society survives. Based on you asinine statement, what is the alternative?
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interesting, any specific lessons you would suggest i "bone up on"? i must have picked up my liberal views from th USMC or perhaps working s a cop. 1 thing is quite obvious. you, young man have never had to take a life. and for the motivated 31 year old former 82nd, let me get this right... you actually would like to stand before GOD and say you enjoyed shooting to death a sleeping women? you guys are right, i am a pussy. thank GOD for that. now i can sleep. i can imagine that if i were killed in a war my wife would have the respect for my memory to strap explosives to her body and fight the power that took my life. i guess you guys think the American Indians were terrorist, too.
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Lets see: You said,
Originally Posted By cohiba: to defeat the terrorist we will likely become something worse.
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My thesis was: We have a great tradition of killing in the most brutal and inhumane ways. My point being, we have done bad things and yet we survive. Please explain in any scenario how we could become "something worse". If we have not already become "something worse" based on our past deeds, why not? As far as lessons to bone up on look at how we fought in the past in any conflict. What could we do in the future that would be more brutal than the past? Also, nice revisionist history, I do think the native American were terrorist, by definition and their actions. Nice example of how you deal with terrorist.
Link Posted: 10/26/2002 9:35:23 PM EDT
Seems to me that the important aspect of the way it was handled is that the terrorists gained nothing by taking hostages. We should take the same approach if/when this scenario repeats itself in the U.S.A. When the terrorists make no gains by taking hostages, the incentive to do so is taken away. I would hope that every effort to save innocent American lives is made, but we should make sure we exterminate the terrorists like so many rodents whenever and wherever they raise their ugly heads.
Link Posted: 10/27/2002 5:44:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dogsdad: Seems to me that the important aspect of the way it was handled is that the terrorists gained nothing by taking hostages. We should take the same approach if/when this scenario repeats itself in the U.S.A. When the terrorists make no gains by taking hostages, the incentive to do so is taken away. I would hope that every effort to save innocent American lives is made, but we should make sure we exterminate the terrorists like so many rodents whenever and wherever they raise their ugly heads.
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What he said.
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