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Posted: 10/24/2002 6:21:44 PM EDT
A link to the federal firearms warrant: [url]http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/sniper/usmhmmd102302wcmp.pdf[/url]
"I have reviewed a state of washington firearm transfer form (form z-10) which was provided to ATF by Welcher's Gun Shop in Tacoma, Washington. The form reflects that on or about May 23,2000 JOHN ALLEN muhammad transferred a Bushmaster rifle, semi-automatic .223 caliber, model A-35, XM-15-E2S, serial number L166036."
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So this rifle was bought in compliance with all federal and state laws. There were no loopholes. Brady didn't do a damn thing to stop this. Everything was done exactly the way the anti's said it should be done, and the crime still happened. Another failure for the gun control argument.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:24:28 PM EDT
We need stronger gun laws, fool.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:27:44 PM EDT
Somehow, my concerns aren't laid to rest by knowing that the rifle was "legally" purchased. More ammunition for the VPC crowd--loopholes to be closed, etc.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:27:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markm: We need stronger gun laws, fool.
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I think we should ban murder. If murder was banned, there wouldn't ever be a problem like there was around DC.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:32:24 PM EDT
Ok...agree 100%. My question is this: This asshole reportedly was tossed from the Army after being convicted in at a general court marshal for [again reportedly] smacking an officer. If my memory serves me, (USN retired, 28 years.) a conviction in a military general court carries with it the stigma of a federal [b]felony[/b] conviction. IF this is true, how in hell did this convicted felon pass the damn background check to buy that rifle? Maybe this is all BS and he wasn't convicted in a military court...but I certainly heard that on one radio report this afternoon. Any opinions?
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:33:58 PM EDT
Actually, if you read the warrant, and compare the dates, he must have lied on his Form 4473, particularly the part where it asked about restraining orders. So the gun control laws and the background check [b]should[/b] have caught him, but they didn't. May 23, 2000 - I think that Bill Clinton gets credit for this one.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:36:04 PM EDT
The future killer bought a post-ban AR15 clone from a licensed dealer in a legal transaction over two years before using the weapon in the commission of a crime. Apparently the semi-automatic action of the weapon was not necessary for the type of shooting in the crimes. Therefore, he did not need a "high capacity" magazine. I am waiting on the edge of my seat to see what Senators Boxer, Clinton, Schumer, Feinstein, et. al. are going to propose to stop future incidents of this sort. Their boy, Muhammed, played by all their rules. Change the rules? All that will accomplish is make the members of al Queda cells here in the USA laugh. They went to school on this episode.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:37:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LWilde: This asshole reportedly was tossed from the Army after being convicted in at a general court marshal for [again reportedly] smacking an officer.
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I believe he was reduced in rank, and not discharged for this event, or so it was reported in the news. I've never heard that a dishonerable discharge or Court Marshal is a felony offence.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:38:08 PM EDT
And it was a post-ban to boot. ARkie
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:38:47 PM EDT
"Gun Show Loophole"? That should be the least of your concerns... This incident gives VPC, Brady, Schumer, all the ammo they need to push for registration, better databases, gun owner cards,... A double-edged sword just got all gun owners across america... BTW, all of by guns fell into Lake Erie today while on a fishing outing...
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:45:36 PM EDT
A court marshal is not a no go for buying a gun, a dishonorable discharge, however, is. One of the questions on the 4473 asks specifically if you have been.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:47:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheCommissioner: The future killer bought a post-ban AR15 clone from a licensed dealer in a legal transaction over two years before using the weapon in the commission of a crime.
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Well, the DEALER broke no laws for sure, and the BRADY check failed. However, the POS was in felony possession of a firearm because of a restraining order against him. You are correct, however, that any additional number of laws would not have prevented this crime. There were at least two opportunities for this to have been corrected. First, when the Brady check failed. Second, when the restraining order was issued (the second time), and the court failed to warn him that he was no longer a suitable person to possess firearms (although the court wasn't obligated to issue such a warning, even though it seems obvious that it should have).
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:51:04 PM EDT
Mugzilla, Unbelievable...by coincedence all my...errrr..my gun fell into the Gulf of Mexico today. Weird, huh? All I have now, is a steak knife and a baseball bat. Maybe I'll get a 10/22 and a .38...I need to feel safe. [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:51:48 PM EDT
This definitely doesn't add up. The Rifle listed in the arrest warrant is a XM-15-E2S. The statement earlier was that a XM-15-A4M3 was confiscated from the vehicle. Seems we may be looking at two separate rifles. Ryan
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:52:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mugzilla: ... BTW, all of by guns fell into Lake Erie today while on a fishing outing...
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damn! what a coincidence, so did mine... I HATE when that happens [:(]
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:57:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By reidry: This definitely doesn't add up. The Rifle listed in the arrest warrant is a XM-15-E2S. The statement earlier was that a XM-15-A4M3 was confiscated from the vehicle. Seems we may be looking at two separate rifles. Ryan
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He's right. What the hell?
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:58:03 PM EDT
Looks as if he may have had a 'Summary' when he was a kid in the Guard. Went regular Army after that and was, apparently, honorably discharged from the regular Army. Nothing to key Brady that I've heard.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 6:59:34 PM EDT
Yup, the system they put in failed..... and of coarse, they won't admit it...
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 7:10:26 PM EDT
MAN, THAT'S SO WEIRD!! ...my guns fell into lake michigan on a fishing trip too!
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 7:10:46 PM EDT
I, for one, am tickled pink that they banned landing airplanes in buildings recently, else Mr. Mohammed might have done a hell of a lot more damage than he did with that little ol' 'salt rifle. cynic
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 7:21:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By reidry: This definitely doesn't add up. The Rifle listed in the arrest warrant is a XM-15-E2S. The statement earlier was that a XM-15-A4M3 was confiscated from the vehicle. Seems we may be looking at two separate rifles. Ryan
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- he changed the barrel - thereby changing the configuration - he changed the upper - thereby changing the configuration - the media are morons
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 7:21:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 7:33:58 PM EDT
What a coinky-dink, the Guns I intend to buy as soon as my FID card clears fell into a lake yesterday too. :D
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 7:35:03 PM EDT
There's a gunshow loophole? What is it? If I buy a firearm at a gunshow from a dealer I still have to fill out a 4473. Where's the loophole?
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 7:42:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By reidry: This definitely doesn't add up. The Rifle listed in the arrest warrant is a XM-15-E2S. The statement earlier was that a XM-15-A4M3 was confiscated from the vehicle.
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My flat-top M4 profile barrel Bushmaster has the model number XM-15-E2S... can't speak towards anyone else's but it would be strange if mine was rare.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 8:03:11 PM EDT
since when is my constitutional rights a loophole .......Bluemax
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 8:06:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By reidry: This definitely doesn't add up. The Rifle listed in the arrest warrant is a XM-15-E2S. The statement earlier was that a XM-15-A4M3 was confiscated from the vehicle. Seems we may be looking at two separate rifles. Ryan
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He's right. What the hell?
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XM-15-E2S is the standard model number for Bushy rifles. The M4A3 is the configuration of this version of the XM-15-E2S.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 8:20:10 PM EDT
Believe the Talking Heads said it was an Other Than Dishonorable Discharge...
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 8:31:23 PM EDT
Summary Court Marshal is basically a misdemeanor conviction. General is where the felony convictions come into play. Not sure about Special, but I think that it depends on the charges at that level.....
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 7:44:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wolfpack: Ban the illegal aliens! I have noticed one thing, they don't refer to illegal aliens as that anymore, now they call them undocumented immigrants. To be an immigrant you must emigrate...legally, correct?? [V]
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Correct. An [b]immigrant[/b] is an alien who the United States has admitted into the country to live here permanently. There are other [b]non-immigrant aliens[/b] who are here legally (students, tourists, temp workers, etc.). The others are illegal aliens, plain and simple. There is no such thing as an undocumented immigrant. It is a PC term made up because it removes the word "illegal".
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 8:02:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hydguy: Summary Court Marshal is basically a misdemeanor conviction. General is where the felony convictions come into play. Not sure about Special, but I think that it depends on the charges at that level.....
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4473 also asks if you were convicted of a misdemeanor that the judge could have imprisoned you for a year or more. Also asks about dishonorable discharge, and are you or have you been under a restraining order for domestic violence. So he was charged with "striking an officer" which is simple assault if it happened in the "private" world vs. the gov't world, anybody know what simple assault carries? He has, as reported, two separate instances of a restraining order which should have caught it immediately and denied the process to continue.... Didn't, got the gun......killed 10 people. Yep system works about right, huh? Meanwhile, we toil at every gun purchase we do legally for the sake of stopping people too dumb to know they can't buy a gun, and it fails us altogether. What a crock......
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