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Posted: 10/22/2002 12:37:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 12:39:32 AM EDT
Time to get new relations.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 12:46:49 AM EDT
Christians like to think of themselves as sheep, the lord as their shepherd.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 12:46:58 AM EDT
I truly believe God helps those who help themselves. I have a friend who is like your relatives. He thinks if he is shot and killed, it was just his time to go. He also thinks you're a wimp if you need to carry a gun. [rolleyes] USPC40 [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/line.gif[/img] [url=www.nra.org][b][red]NRA[/red][/url] [url=www.nra.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][b][red]GOA[/red] [/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.saf.org][red]SAF[/red][/url] [url=www.saf.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][red]SAS[/red][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/b][/url] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/alabamaflag.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 1:06:12 AM EDT
Tell them to stop making their mortgage payments. After all - if God wants them to have a house - he will provide for them. The next time they are ill and go to a doctor - give them shit - if God wants them to be healed, it will be so.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 1:08:20 AM EDT
Fool's.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:46:13 AM EDT
Never mind christians,religion in general is a play on peoples "need to believe"[rolleyes].....some just cant accept reality.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:26:37 AM EDT
At the church I used to attend, the pastor told a great joke/story regarding this: A religious man answered his door to find the local sheriff. Heavy rains were coming, and the neighborhood was being evacuated due to flood warnings. The man refused to evacuate. "God will protect me," he said. The rains came that night, and the water level started rising. By the next day, the water level was so high the man was confined to the second story of his home. A rescue boat came to his house, with workers pleading for the man to come out. Again, the man refused. "God will protect me," he said. The water continued to rise, and by nightfall the man was forced to camp on his roof. A helicopter came by, with rescuers desparately pleading for the man to leave with them. Once again, he refused. "God will protect me." That night, as the water level continued to rise, the man was whisked away and drowned. His spirit rose to heaven and stood before God. Confused, and feeling a little betrayed, the man asked God, "I have trusted in you all my life. Why didn't you protect me from the flood?" God answered, "I sent you a car, a boat, and a helicopter. What else would you ask me to do?"
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:31:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Squib: At the church I used to attend, the pastor told a great joke/story regarding this: A religious man answered his door to find the local sheriff. Heavy rains were coming, and the neighborhood was being evacuated due to flood warnings. The man refused to evacuate. "God will protect me," he said. The rains came that night, and the water level started rising. By the next day, the water level was so high the man was confined to the second story of his home. A rescue boat came to his house, with workers pleading for the man to come out. Again, the man refused. "God will protect me," he said. The water continued to rise, and by nightfall the man was forced to camp on his roof. A helicopter came by, with rescuers desparately pleading for the man to leave with them. Once again, he refused. "God will protect me." That night, as the water level continued to rise, the man was whisked away and drowned. His spirit rose to heaven and stood before God. Confused, and feeling a little betrayed, the man asked God, "I have trusted in you all my life. Why didn't you protect me from the flood?" God answered, "I sent you a car, a boat, and a helicopter. What else would you ask me to do?"
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LOL ! Sad but true.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:40:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Squib: At the church I used to attend, the pastor told a great joke/story regarding this:
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I was thinking the exact thing my pastor had said at a church I used to go to. Didn't happen to be John Gurnsey at All Saints in dale city did it ?
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:43:52 AM EDT
Why in the world must you folks belittle [b]Christianity[/b] in such an awful manner? Has [b]Jesus[/b] not sufficient enough real-world enemies that you have to set yourselves up as His enemies, as well? If there is ANYTHING good about this nation, if there is ANYTHING redeeming about this nation, it is that the Founding Fathers all knew of [b]Jesus[/b] and His commandments and set about organizing a nation that [b]Jesus[/b] could be proud of. [b]And they succeeded beyond their wildest hopes and dreams![/b] It was only when there arose a generation in this nation, who 'knew not [b]Jesus[/b]' did we, in fact, take the wrong road. If you have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in this nation today, you must thank the Lord that those who put this nation together thought that [b]Jesus Christ[/b] wanted you to be armed to fight for what was good, right, and honorable. Now that [b]Jesus[/b] has performed His miracles on this nation, you think you can dismiss Him so easily? Think again! [b]Now, in the meanwhile, though I am the least in the Kingdom of Heaven, would you like to compare your arsenal of weapons to mine?[/b] [:D] Nothing that [b]Jesus[/b] taught me has in any way convinced me or led me to surrender to the forces of darkness in this present world. Eric The(Jesus,NowAndForever)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:49:39 AM EDT
I agree with Eric. This country was founded on christian principles. We should thank God everday that he led the founding father's of this country to create this great nation. I am a devout christian and it hasn't stopped me from carrying. How can God defend me if I don't carry the means to let him do so. If it is my time to go maybe I will miss, but that doesn't stop me from going to the range and practicing. And praying that I never am put in a situation where I have to defend my family or myself. Rusty
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:51:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 5:55:29 AM EDT by Squib]
Originally Posted By ANGST: I was thinking the exact thing my pastor had said at a church I used to go to. Didn't happen to be John Gurnsey at All Saints in dale city did it ?
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No, it was in southwestern VA. Not sure how long ago (several years). I have heard it since then...probably an e-mail? Some people seem to forget that the Bible provides a guide for living a "good" life, and that nowhere does it say "I am thy crutch". I believe there is much wisdom in the words, "The Lord helps those who help themselves." (woo woo My 100th post in a year. How lame is that?)
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:54:12 AM EDT
You know, sometimes I have to wonder about y'all! If God didn't give us our freedoms, then who did? Mother Nature? Hah! And if these rights come from [u]man[/u], then guess what, when [u]man[/u] decides those rights are no longer applicable or available to you, to whom will you complain? Trust me, by then even [b]He[/b] won't be listening to you! For my beliefs, when [b]Jesus[/b] wants me to give up my weapons, He will personally come and ask me to do so! [b]Only the Lord can take away what the Lord has given![/b] But y'all go on and talk about the 'Universal Rights of Man' found on some United Nations website and glean from it, if you can, the part about the right to keep and bear arms! That is the language of the Master to whom you have chosen to give your worship! What? You don't think that the UN is your Master? If God is not your Master, then Satan will be. Whether you know it, or admit it, or not. Eric The(ChooseYouThisDayWhomYouWillServe,AsForMeA­ndMyHouse,WeWillServeTheLord)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 6:10:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 6:13:41 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 6:23:39 AM EDT
Jesus ordered his guys to arm themselves on the 2nd commission... [b]Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end[/b] Notice below Jesus told Peter to Sheath his sword, NOT throw it away. Jesus meant for Peter to retain his weapon, but not to use it in this instance. So it is with us...We must know WHEN to use it! Also note, Peter was good with a sword, nailed the guys ear, rather than splitting his skull! [b]John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. 10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it[/b]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 6:29:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: What is it about the Christian religion that does this to people's minds? Whatever happens, God wants it to.
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It's a [b]misunderstanding[/b] of the Christian religion. Probably peddled by some social-gospel freakshow. I dunno. There are so many ways the Message is muddled today... fwiw Scott
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 6:30:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: It is necessary only to state that we have certain unalienable rights by virtue of the fact that we are human beings, and claim those rights as inherent in the status of human.
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That's what the UN charter says, not the preamble of our nations Constitution.... This nation was definetly founded on Christian ideas, and we see the results of our departing from them reflected in our country today.....
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 6:36:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: It is necessary only to state that we have certain unalienable rights by virtue of the fact that we are human beings, and claim those rights as inherent in the status of human.
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You say tomayto, Hun says tomahto...
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 6:50:03 AM EDT
Post from raf -
The claim of a "God-Given" right is a sufficient, but not a necessary foundation upon which to base a given right.
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Well, there had better be a foundation from something other than [b]'mankind now believes thus'![/b] Cause mankind can easily be persuaded [u]not[/u] to believe [b]'thus.'[/b]
For example, what of an atheist? Do his "God-Given" rights vanish when he renounces the existence of God?
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No, why should they? God is long-suffering and wills that all of His children come to him. In the meanwhile, all of the rights that He has established are available to one and all. Have you never heard of a death-bed conversion?
And while we're at, if these rights are by necessity "God-Given", then exactly which God/sect/branch/denomination/faith/cult, etc., do we refer for final and ultimate authority?
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What do [u]you[/u] mean which 'God'? There is only One. Period. So thought the Founding Fathers, as do I. And insofar as 'sect/branch/denomination/faith/cult,etc.' is concerned, what difference does that make? The Word of God is not something that can be seriously debated, although mankind has consistently found reasons for doing so. If you will notice, whenever the clear and undeniable Word of God says one thing, that is at odds with mankind's desires, then a new denomination springs up that denies the very thing that they eschew. How convenient! The very Good News of the Gospel is that it was designed to be heard, or read, and easily understood by fishermen, by day-laborers, by housewives, by shephards, by everyday people without degrees or formal education. The simple people accept the Gospel without any reservations, it is only the religious experts, the theologians, the wise and sassy, who would quibble over the meanings of very obvious matters and everyday words and their meanings.
It is necessary only to state that we have certain unalienable rights by virtue of the fact that we are human beings, and claim those rights as inherent in the status of human.
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[b]Ah, secular humanism in a nutshell![/b] And when the consensus of these lovely human beings becomes: we don't need no stinking individual right to keep and bear arms, then that settles the matter once and for all! When the Vox Populi has spoken, who can oppose it? Well, I can certainly see that you would never have made a good [b]Rebel![/b] However, you would have been an excellent choice for the Federal Military Commandant of occupied Georgia! [:D] Eric The(LookForMeInTheBushesAndBrambles)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 7:00:12 AM EDT
BTW, [b]raf[/b], if these inalienable rights are part and parcel of being human, then why, oh why, have other nations not adopted the full range of the Bill of Rights? Only this singular country, whose G-d was the Lord of Judeo-Christian faith, adopted such a full and far-ranging program of liberty and freedom for its citizens. If these rights are inalienable and part and parcel of being human, then do you see these rights as becoming more and more absolute, or increasingly 'watered down'? If these rights were as you say, they would be getting more and more recognition, but they are not! Why not? When the United States began to shake off its essentially religious nature, then and only then, did we begin to question the wisdom of the Founding Fathers.... We are jackasses. Pure and simple. And those who claim that turning our backs on the Lord is absolutely necessary in order not to unduly frighten our 'weak sister' fellow citizens, or to serve some multicultural 'god', are the biggest jackasses of us all! Eric The(PresentCompanyExcepted)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 7:00:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 7:03:11 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 7:21:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 7:56:08 AM EDT
You are correct, [b]thebeekeeper1[/b]! How could [b]garandman[/b] have left me here on my own to fight against these heathen? Perhaps he is on a missionary voyage to the Holy Land, or something equally splendid. I think G. K. Chesterton said it best: "When men stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing. They believe in anything." I'm afraid that this is what it will all come down to, in the end. Other good Chesterton quotes on our nation and its essential Christian ethic: "Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God." - Christendom in Dublin, 1933 "America is the only country ever founded on a creed." - What I Saw In America, 1922 "The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. [b]There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man[/b]." - Chapter 19, What I Saw In America, 1922 He was a genius. And a Christian. Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 8:29:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 8:37:48 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 8:59:33 AM EDT
Post from raf -
Interesting. On reading the DoI, one sees but one, qualified (Nature's God) reference to God. One also sees references to Creator, Providence, Supreme Judge, and so forth.
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Yes, that was how Eighteenth Century Christians usually referred to the Judeo-Christian God.
Nowhere is the term Judeo-Christian God used to specify the Deity referred to by the FF.
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They knew and they knew that their readers, as well as King George, would know to Whom they referred. Apparently, you don't. That is sad.
One can ASSume they meant such, but it is nowhere specified in the document.
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It's not the Founding Fathers' Creed, nor any other sort of religious document that they were drafting, now, was it? But to Whom (or 'whom') do you ASSume they were referring? [:D]
I find it interesting that many who hold to a strict reading of the Constitution, the other important document of the United States would be so free and easy in their reading of the Declaration of Independence.
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'Free and easy' as opposed to what? 'Narrow minded and historically ignorant'?
It should be obvious that the DoI, carefully written by very able men, was meant to apply to all humans irrespective of their individual religious denominations.
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Who among us has said [u]otherwise[/u], [b]raf[/b], my dear? The Father is most generous with His gifts and the rain falls upon the just and the unjust. Maybe a thorough study of religious beliefs in the Colonies would be in order for all of us. Eric The(I'llDoMyPart!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 9:17:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 9:23:04 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 9:23:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Jesus ordered his guys to arm themselves on the 2nd commission... [b]Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end[/b] Notice below Jesus told Peter to Sheath his sword, NOT throw it away. Jesus meant for Peter to retain his weapon, but not to use it in this instance. So it is with us...We must know WHEN to use it! Also note, Peter was good with a sword, nailed the guys ear, rather than splitting his skull! [b]John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. 10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it[/b]
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Amen Brutha, the actual word was Manchuria, my research says it was more like a big survival knife than a sword, used for personal protection from thugs and wild animals. The fact that Jesus speaks to soliders on a few occasions also says that self defense is just commmon sense. He didn't tell them to disarm either, he pretty much told them not to pilage and steal in their duties as solidiers. The same as telling Peter to seath the sword, not throw it away. If the "sword" was evil, do you think he wouldn't have been told by Jesus himself to get rid of it long before then! This is all the permission necessary!
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 9:54:16 AM EDT
Post from raf -
So? All of them, universally? Why not just use the word "God", as the Bible generally does?
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Strange as it may be for the unschooled in such history, it was the fashion of Eighteenth Century Christianity, shared with the Orthodox Jews, a reluctance to use the word 'Lord' and 'God', in what it considered 'profane' writing. Accordingly, the writers in those days were always looking for and using words that would denote God, or the Lord, without actually using those particular words. Some fundamentalist groups, especially back then, were almost rabbinical in their avoidance of the words 'God' and 'Lord.' So what? Once again, I ask you directly, to Whom do you think the authors of this founding document were referring?
My point is that if the FF had wished to set up America on Judeo-Christian principles only, they would have been more explicit about doing so, hence the conclusion that they wished the nation to be founded upon a broader religious basis.
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It would be extremely unlikely that the Founding Fathers could have agreed on the principles of any [u]particular[/u] sect or denomination of Christianity to use in fashioning their new state. So they eschewed making a theocracy, and, instead, made a Christianity-based republic. Since they themselves disagreed in the forms of Christian worship they privately exercised, it would have been unlikely for them to have done otherwise. Then I asked: 'But to Whom (or 'whom') do you ASSume they were referring? You replied:
Religion in general.
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Yes. I would imagine that you would read that into Whom they were actually talking about. 'Religion in general', which, basically, means no religion at all. Yes, the Founding Fathers, most of whom had fled, or whose ancestors had fled, from [u]religious[/u] persecutions, were content to mean 'religion in general.' [u]That[/u] is absurd. And unhistorical, as well. Then you made the bizarre statement:
It should be obvious that the DoI, carefully written by very able men, was meant to apply to all humans irrespective of their individual religious denominations.
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And by 'bizarre' I mean coming from out of nowhere, and I replied: [b]Who among us has said otherwise, raf, my dear?[/b] To which you replied:
Those that have said that the US was founded exclusively on Judeo-Christian principals.
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Ah, but [b]raf[/b], my dear brother, it [u]was[/u] founded upon Judeo-Christian principals, but those principals were applied equally to one and all, 'irrespective' of their religious beliefs, or even non-beliefs. Now there were disabilities that being a non-believer might cause you. You couldn't be a witness in a trial. In most states you couldn't run for office, but those were local and not universally held to, back then.
I couldn't agree more, Eric![:D]
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Oh yes, you could, [b]raf[/b], you just want to be a prick! [:D] Eric The(ButIMean'Prick'InTheVeryBestSenseOfTheTer­m!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 10:02:38 AM EDT
I'd like to welcome y'all to the Hun-Raf show. [:d] Should I cancel all appointments for this afternoon?
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 10:13:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Jesus ordered his guys to arm themselves on the 2nd commission... [b]Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end[/b] Notice below Jesus told Peter to Sheath his sword, NOT throw it away. Jesus meant for Peter to retain his weapon, but not to use it in this instance. So it is with us...We must know WHEN to use it! Also note, Peter was good with a sword, nailed the guys ear, rather than splitting his skull! [b]John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. 10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it[/b]
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Lib, You have qouted some of my fav scriptures. Doesn't it drive you nuts when they qoute, out of context, "...those who live by the sword die by the sword..." from Rev.? If I could sum up a response in a sentence or two I'd put it on my business cards. :) Shok
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 10:27:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 10:35:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 12:14:38 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
The claim of a "God-Given" right is a sufficient, but not a necessary foundation upon which to base a given right.
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The opening monologue of the movie, "The Ten Commandments" explains this concept very easily. "Is man to be ruled by the whims of man, or is man to be ruled by God" When Moses returns with Aaron to Egypt and Pharoah accepts him into his palace. Moses goes up to pharoah and pharoah asks Moses where he is from, and the reply is , "The Kingdom of the Most High!!" It is there that pharoahs troubles begin. Cause brother, as far as kingdoms go , they don't get any higher!!! That is the Gospel , that is a true story. And that could be why the founding fathers new that if their country was to be great by any earthly measure, the people (each and every one) must obey Gods will. And history had shown that when Gods will turned against a nation, that nation is not very long upon the face of the earth. So it is commen sense that the FF would put the inalienable rights of man as ordained by God into writing. Because to not acknowledge them or try to hide them from the people can become a very very very extremely stupid act on the part of rulers of nations. Some people have even speculated that the Founders pens were divinely guided?? Interesting don't know. It could be that being believers themselves they knew not to tempt the Lord. But one thing is for sure, the FF were not Secular Humanists by any stretch of the imagination. So when the FF wrote,"... Are indowed by their creator...". They didn't write CREATORS. They didn't use the plural.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 11:08:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 11:10:13 AM EDT by Carbine_Man]
Originally Posted By bolt: Never mind christians,religion in general is a play on peoples "need to believe"[rolleyes].....some just cant accept reality.
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[b]Comments like this burn me up.[/b] Hey Mr. bolt. Go over to this site: [url=http://www.worldnetdaily.com/]WorldNetDaily[/url]. It is a conservative Christian news site, with 1/100th the resources of CNN & their cohorts, trying to provide news and commentary that the liberal humanist trash media cover-up daily, or twist to fit their sick world view. What you'll find on any given day is five or six editorials or articles fully supporting the second ammendment and the right of self-defense. There are strongly pro-2nd-Ammendment books there for sale as well. Including one written by a pastor about why Christians should carry guns. He happens to have been carrying a pistol when his own church was attacked and turned-away a massacre. When I say Christian, I'm referring to Bible-believing, Jesus worshipping conservatives, not the New Age leftists masquerading as Christians. I wish I had a nickle for the number of times I've had people come to me looking for firearms purchase advice. And every last one of them believes that God works through means (meaning, if you want your field plowed, he'll give you a plow and the strength to do it.) And OBTW, I find atheists and other members of the religious left to be overwhelmingly anti-self-defense. Do a poll here and see if there aren't a lot of people around here with the "need to believe." [rolleyes]yourself.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 11:11:13 AM EDT
, again! Post from raf -
Any deity you please, just not one to the exclusion of all others. That's plain enough, I think.
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[size=4]Any deity you please, just not one to the exclusion of all others.[/size=4] [u]Any[/u] deity, you please? Crap, [b]raf[/b], why would you rather climb up a tree and deny that the Founding Fathers were devout Christians, than remain on the ground and admit it? So, it was [b]Ahura Mazda[/b], that the Founding Fathers were calling upon? [b]Baphomet?[/b] [b]Baal?[/b] Which one? All of them? [u]Any[/u] deity! That is surely rich, [b]raf[/b]! So tell me, one of the first things the new Congress did was to purchase copies of the King James Bible, the Book of the Dead, as well as the Necronomicon, to pass out amongst all the citizens? I suppose this is where secular humanism and multiculturalism will one day lead our country!
That is one possible interpretation. Another is that they did not wish to explicitly favor one brand of religion to the exclusion of any or all others.
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And, yet, that is [u]precisely[/u] what they proceeded to do!
Yes these men were very aware of religious persecution. And thus my contention that the fact that they did not explicitly endorse a particular brand of religion in the nations founding documents is bolstered, not diminished. They were content to allow religion, in general, to flourish, as opposed to the unthinkable sectarian state.
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You are begging the question by repeatedly saying 'one particular brand' of religion and then holding that Christianity was simply one 'brand' of religion. They were [u]all[/u] Christians, but they wanted no particular [u]Christian[/u] sect to dominate the government. So if you mean 'sect' or 'denomination' when you say 'brand', then you are correct. If you mean 'Christianity' vs. 'Judaism' vs. 'Islam' when you say 'brand', then you are dead wrong!
A more careful reading of my previous remarks will show that my remarks, far from being "bizarre" have been consistent. Re-read. Please.
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How 'carefully' should one read this, [b]raf[/b]: 'It should be obvious that the DoI, carefully written by very able men, was meant to apply to all humans irrespective of their individual religious denominations.' No one, absolutely no one, had argued that [u]only[/u] Christians should be covered by the rights and principles of self-government as contained in the Declaration of Independence. But you set up this 'straw man' argument for some [u]bizarre[/u] reason! I cannot fathom why anyone would do that unless he had a chip about Judeo-Christian religion as big as the commonwealth of Rhode Island on his shoulder! Get the drift? [:D] So you are consistent, for what that is worth.
Religious principles, assuredly yes. Explicitly Judeo-Christian principles, no.
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They had no 'religious principles' that were not, repeat, [u]not[/u] explicitly Judeo-Christian! What source of 'religious principles' do you think they were using? Babylonian? Greek? What?
If I am wrong in this, show me, in the Constitution or the DoI, where it is explicitly stated the intention of founding the US on the basis of one particular form of religion or another.
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Nowhere do they set up an 'Anglican' state, or a 'Dissenters' state, or a 'Methodist' state. Once again, if by 'brand' you mean sect or denomination, you are correct to that limited degree. If you say that they were unaware that they were following from the Mayflower Compact, from the King James version of the Bible, from all of the great Christian thinkers of the past, then you are dead wrong! Later, I will assail you with all of the statements of the Founding Fathers that show that they knew precisely what religion propelled them to do and act as they did.
Now, Eric... No name calling. That's a sign one's losing the argument.
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Nay, Sir, it is just the sign of someone who has to keep preaching the same old sermons until even you folks on the back pews will get religion. Besides, I said I meant it in the very best sense of the term! [:D] Eric The(Bible-Thumping)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 11:31:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:10:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:15:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 4:30:44 PM EDT by 1_153_370_371_407]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: You know, sometimes I have to wonder about y'all! If God didn't give us our freedoms, then who did? Mother Nature? Hah! And if these rights come from [u]man[/u], then guess what, when [u]man[/u] decides those rights are no longer applicable or available to you, to whom will you complain?
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So does this mean you think illegal immigrants have the right to keep and bear arms inside the borders of the USA? Howabout non-citizens here legally?
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:30:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QShok:
Originally Posted By liberty86: Jesus ordered his guys to arm themselves on the 2nd commission... [b][red]Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end[/red][/b] Notice below Jesus told Peter to Sheath his sword, NOT throw it away. Jesus meant for Peter to retain his weapon, but not to use it in this instance. So it is with us...We must know WHEN to use it! Also note, Peter was good with a sword, nailed the guys ear, rather than splitting his skull! [b][red]John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. 10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it[/red][/b]
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Lib, You have qouted some of my fav scriptures. Doesn't it drive you nuts when they qoute, out of context, "...those who live by the sword die by the sword..." from Rev.? If I could sum up a response in a sentence or two I'd put it on my business cards. :) Shok
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Hi Shok, what really drives me nuts, is the fact that the "church" today is largely apostate, it's "sheep" don't STUDY scripture for themselves, but depend on someone else to do it for them. Her teachers, while mostly well intentioned, (the road to hell bring paved with such), are never the less leading the sheep astray. We see a good example of this in the first post here. Who is teaching these people? Why are they not studying scripture themselves, and [s]being[/s] allowing themselves to be lead by the Holy Spirit?? [red]Matt 14:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them[/red]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:35:31 PM EDT
Doublefeed, the attitude you referred to in your original posting illustrates the relatively common 'error of presumption' - assuming that because God CAN do ____, He WILL choose do do so. Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God... Thus, it is not wise to jump off buildings, or to depend upon divine intervention in a situation you know to be perilous, and so on.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:41:37 PM EDT
Gee, I was just going to suggest to DoubleFeed that he not try his theory (that Christian's are but sheep) by entering the home of any Southern Baptist late at night uninvited. Having grown up there, I know they interpret "turn the other cheek" as "fire the other barrel". However, on second thought, I would just suggest that he pop his head into any forum that EricTheHun visits to see how Christians feel -- that God has given men the tools to protect themselves. Whew, hot thread!
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:46:42 PM EDT
OOPS! Wrong forum. I saw the subject and thought it was about Chief Moose.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:10:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 5:17:46 PM EDT by liberty86]
Originally Posted By raf: That is one possible interpretation. Another is that they did not wish to explicitly favor one brand of religion to the exclusion of any or all others.
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And...
And thus my contention that the fact that they did not explicitly endorse a particular brand of religion in the nations founding documents is bolstered, not diminished. They were content to allow religion, in general, to flourish, as opposed to the unthinkable sectarian state. Religious principles, assuredly yes. Explicitly Judeo-Christian principles, no. If I am wrong in this, show me, in the Constitution or the DoI, where it is explicitly stated the intention of founding the US on the basis of one particular form of religion or another. You can't, because the FF never said it was their intention to do so. Their goal was to promote religion, in general, as a bulwark to the Republic. That has been well documented. But a particular brand? Show me.
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Your contention that such is not found in the DOI, or Constitution is true. Your contention that they did not intend it to be a Christian nation, is FALSE! [b][blue]James Madison (Architect of the U.S. Constitution & Co-Author of the Federalist Papers) "There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent an sudden usurpation." "...it is indispensable that some provision should be made for defending the Community agst (against) the incapicity, negligence or perfidy of the chief Magistrate." From his notes Note: Perfidy is defined as "The quality or state of being faithless or disloyal." "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ." "Religion [is] the basis and Foundation of Government." "It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage....Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."[/blue][/b] As is plain from the text in the last quote, when Madison used the word "creator", he was talking about the G*d of Moses". And, [b][blue]Francis Scott Key February 22, 1812 "The patriot who feels himself in the service of God, who acknowledges Him in all his ways, has the promise of Almighty direction, and will find His Word in his greatest darkness, a lantern to his feet and a lamp unto his paths.' He will therefore seek to establish for his country in the eyes of the world, such a character as shall make her not unworthy of the name of a Christian nation...."[/blue][/b] And Jefferson, whom many tout as a "Diest" makes plain his belief below... [b][blue]As President, Thomas Jefferson not only signed bills which appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and in the armed services, but he also signed the Articles of War, April 10, 1806, in which he: "Earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers, diligently to attend divine services." In a letter to Horatio G. Spafford, dated March 17, 1814, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains." "A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that [red]I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.[/red]" "I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."[/blue][/b] One more out of many... [b][blue]Patrick Henry March 23, 1775 "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased a the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." "The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." "Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom." "It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." "The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun." On November 20, 1798, in his Last Will and Testament, Patrick Henry wrote: "This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed."[/blue][/b] If ya insist on more, I'll get 'em, but this should suffice....even for you [:D]
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:18:32 PM EDT
Hmmm...whenever I hear about these supposed "God-given" rights, I always wonder what God was doing in all those THOUSANDS of years when BILLIONS of people were seeing those rights abridged. As a matter of fact, prior to the 18th Century, you could count the number of nations that EVER considered individual rights as something to be preserved on one hand. You can believe that God gave you your rights if you want, but the TRUTH is, and ALWAYS HAS BEEN, that men only have the freedom they fight to get and then fight to preserve. If there is a God and if He cares how we govern ourselves at all, He surely helps those that help themselves. Frankly, looking at history, if our rights our God given, they seem to be pretty easily man-deprived. One wouldn't think that something that God considers so important would be so easily taken away by mere mortals.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:18:39 PM EDT
RAF if you check you can find that only CONGRESS was prohibited from establishing state religions. Many states did. ALL protestant. Your ignorance on this is disturbing. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 5:28:58 PM EDT
Hi. I'm a Christian, and I carry. I feel Jesus instruction to "turn the other cheek" is dealing with personal insult, not necessarily threat to life. Basically the same distinction the state of NC draws. In defense of Life, against Sexual Assault, or Grave Bodily Harm. Someone demanding your wallet is not such a threat. Threatening others or myself with a deadly weapon renders the fact that the guy is demanding my wallet moot. However, if the threat pertains to the fact that I'm a Christian - then, ya take your lumps and get a white robe and a spot under the altar. This is by no means a universally held view. The 1911 is merely a tool, I do not trust in it for my protection. You may argue whether or not self defense is permissible for a Christian, but you'd better do so on grounds other than "God will protect me" unless you also plan to throw out your first aid kit, fire extinguisher, remove the locks on your house and car, and cancel all your insurance policies. "Some trust in horses, some trust in chariots, but we will trust in the name of our God" was written by the man who also penned "Blessed be the Lord my strength, who teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight".
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 10:34:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Well lookee here. Two moderators hijacked my thread for an off topic religious debate. Isn't that cute? [:D]
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LOL
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 8:02:10 AM EDT
Most Christians I know, including myself, believe God gave us intellect and our abilities for a reason. It would be immoral to not use our abilities to preserve our lives. We believe that we must give our all in everything we do. That said, when all is said and done, the Lord's will is done. Most of us just believe that the Lord's will is for us to use what he has given us.
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