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Posted: 10/17/2002 3:21:24 PM EDT
Okay, let's have a little discussion.... Based on some comments I've read here, it sounds like some folks are itching to pull their guns and deal with the bad guys. As an ex-policeman, I used to think that if I saw Joe Citizen being threatened with a firearm, I would use my firearm to assist him. But after attending Thunder Ranch Defensive Pistol Course and listening to Clint, I've changed my mind. Here's what Clint said (paraphrased): "If Joe Citizen is too lazy to get a concealed handgun permit, buy a pistol, and learn when and how to use it, why should I save him from his own problem?" Clint's lovely wife Heidi says, "Every bullet that goes down range has a lawyer attached to it." If you shoot the bad guy and don't get hurt yourself (the best case scenerio), you will be arrested, go to jail, and have to spend probably 10's of thousands of dollars to get out of trouble. Say you see an adult male being held up by a bad guy with a gun; do you pull yours and get involved in a shooting? Please don't change the situation by saying "What if its a little girl or an old woman in a wheelchair?" Just this scenerio, with an adult male? I'd be interested in what you guys think. Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 3:28:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: Say you see an adult male being held up by a bad guy with a gun; do you pull yours and get involved in a shooting? Please don't change the situation by saying "What if its a little girl or an old woman in a wheelchair?" Just this scenerio, with an adult male? I'd be interested in what you guys think. Thanks.
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Really , unless you witnessed the whole thing unfold, how would you know the good guy from the bad guy?
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 3:40:44 PM EDT
I guess it depends on the circumstance. Basically, probably not. As a professional mariner, I would have to think twice about sailing into harm's way for the likes of one hell of a lot of people I've met. I would have to think thrice about sailing into harm's way to support a government I believe is slowly going down the crapper. I would NOT sail into harm's way for the financial gian of some greedy shipping company.No way in hell! However, if US troops....our kids...need my services, than all I ask for is a ship to sail and a star to steer her by. I will face the fiercest storms and sail in a sea fraught with peril to insure the troops have what they need to win and make it home. As for Joe Citizen, If he was my good friend, yes. Some clown too cheap or stupid to learn to take care of himself? Screw him. I can honestly say that out here, I've watched boys become men, and most of them, by no way all, I would risk my hide and fortune for, but some teary-eyed stupid guy with his head up his butt? Hah! You should live so long.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 3:57:24 PM EDT
If it happen within 21 feet of me and I thought I was going to be next I would mow the mf down. If I am more than 21 feet from the incident I would take cover and phone police. 21 feet is the maximum distance one is allowed to use deadly force in Michigan.And if the perp. is not threatening you, you can not use deadly force. So basically it would have to be a lunatic 21 feet from me with a weapon on the rampage. Or in your case an armed robber within 21 feet of me, and I thought I was going to be robbed next.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 4:02:56 PM EDT
Yes, if I were sure of the situation, I would lend assistance if needed, glad to do it. But then, in AL where I live, there *REALLY* does exist a legal and sociological mindset to support that. Basically, you may feel free to shoot the scum out here, and that's the way it oughta be. Just recently, a newspaper guy noticed that the clerk at a stop-n-rob he way servicing was being robbed at shotgun point. The newspaper guy shot and killed the goblin, and not only are no charges to be filed, he has been hailed. Don't come to my precious Deep South and threaten me or others, we are duty bound to kill you.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 4:12:23 PM EDT
ninja, Besides drinking my brand of beer, I know where you come from. You would do the right thing, but there's not an ALA jury that'd convict you of anything other than wasting ammo if you shot more than twice. Us Yankees don't seem to have that option. It ain't cowardice, justplaying it smart. Why should i lose my whole 401 K or anthing else I have accumulated because some bleeding heart....Probably joe himself, come to think of it...would bust me for doing the right thing. I'm a working man. I can't AFFORD to do the right thing!
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 6:06:42 PM EDT
Highly subjective question, but in general, no. Just like with this sniper bs, I think the people of MD and N. VA need to take it upon themselves to ensure their own safety. If the bad guys start bugging me I'll put a hurtin' on 'em, but I don't get too weepy over the "innocent" (read sheep-like) victims of this or that crime. I've learned the hard way that getting involved as a "good samaritan" can be very dangerous to your health and personal welfare. There are always extenuating circumstances, of course, but my first instinct is always to avoid getting involved.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 6:09:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 6:19:42 PM EDT
I hope that any civilian who tries to act like Batman gets arrested for obstruction of justice, ADW and depending on the outcome, 1st degree murder.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:25:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By piccolo: ninja, Besides drinking my brand of beer, I know where you come from. You would do the right thing, but there's not an ALA jury that'd convict you of anything other than wasting ammo if you shot more than twice. Us Yankees don't seem to have that option. It ain't cowardice, justplaying it smart. Why should i lose my whole 401 K or anthing else I have accumulated because some bleeding heart....Probably joe himself, come to think of it...would bust me for doing the right thing. I'm a working man. I can't AFFORD to do the right thing!
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Indeed. I have often wondered what it would feel like to be a wolf living in the land of sheep, I feel for ya. Man, do I ever LOVE the South!!! Can I get a DIXIE on that???
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:32:23 PM EDT
As a matter of fact, about two months ago, I was driving on 20th St.N, in downtown proper, to go see a buddy who owns a deli here. On my left, I saw a man running with a laptop softcase/sachel type thing, with the obvious "previous owner" running behind the perp, begging for help. There was really nobody about but womenz at lunch, so I figure what the hell and stop my truck to jump out and help. I got about ten feet when it dawned on me that I had just left my truck parked in the middle of the road, running. So, that wouldn't do and I went back to it. But, I did then drive into the parking garage they ran into i/o to help if needed, but they were gone. I am ALWAYS packed, and as such, very honestly consider it an option if not a duty to do what I should, it really is second nature. Yes, I would, and I guess I have attempted to do so.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:40:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2002 7:42:26 PM EDT by s0ulzer0]
Maybe I'm getting you wrong (Old_Painless), but are you saying "too bad - do nothing"? You're there watching this guy get "threatened with a firearm" , he doesn't know you're there. You could easily drop him, but you do nothing. Then that guy gets shot in the head. "Oh, too bad" I'm too scared of litigation to do the right thing. THAT is why our country's citizens are becoming watered down and worthless. Nice to meet you. Why should it matter if it's an "adult male" or some woman or child? Are they more "worthy" of your help?
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:42:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:48:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: Yes, I SHE is pretty and has nice legs!
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Are you saying you discriminate against amputees? [:D]
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 8:12:03 PM EDT
I would have said absolutely until I took to CCW class here in NC. It was stressed to me/us that there is absolutely no way you could know who started the incident or who was really the good/bad guy, and if you shot the wrong one, good intentions or not, you WOULD be prosecuted. They even had a few mock 'incidents' on tape to show us that you could not be sure of anything. That the "bad" guy w/the gun was really the original "good" guy who had taken the "bad" guy's gun. If I KNEW the situation, sure I would help, but here in NC, you're much better off (legally and physically)just calling the cops. Definitely something to think about though.....
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:04:05 PM EDT
DUH... The BEST idea is to put BOTH of them at gunpoint and tell them BOOTH in no uncertain terms to get face-first on the ground or be shot. (depending on who has the gun...) The good guy will back-off and not shoot you. The bad guy MAY listen to you. If he does, the good guy WILL follow suit. If the bad guy does not back-off, you may shoot him. You are doing your civil DUTY to prevent the life of another human from being taken. You may want to wait a split-second before shooting in this case to give him time to come to his senses. If the bad guy points at you, you may shoot him. He has no intention of giving up when that happens. If you are there, and you COULD have stopped it but didnt, you can even be sued for that these days =(
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:08:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: I hope that any civilian who tries to act like Batman gets arrested for obstruction of justice, ADW and depending on the outcome, 1st degree murder.
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... LOL, my fucking hero!
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:17:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: I hope that any civilian who tries to act like Batman gets arrested for obstruction of justice, ADW and depending on the outcome, 1st degree murder.
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... LOL, my fucking hero!
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If you were cop who stupidly lost his gun to a BG in a scuffle, and a good CCW guy was close by, Im sure you would change your tune REAL quick. You guys always assume that cops are at the scene as things happen, when in fact it is usually the opposite and you end-up being JUST the recorders of history. Also, by your statements, I would assume that you are against CCW for the REST of us CIVILIANS?
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:19:58 PM EDT
SoulzerO, Damned right I'm afraid to do the right thing. Why should I do the right thing if it could cost me 20 years in jail? Why should I do the right thing if it'd cost me my entire 401k and then some to pay legal fees just to do the right thing? Why should I lose a lifetimes savings for some dumb bastard that was too cheap and lazy to get a CCW and a pistol to take care of himself? If some damned do-gooders hadn't FUBAR'd common law, that'd be different. The right thing to do is probably to shoot the perp stone dead, but some do-gooders decided that even Charles Manson deserves abreak because he had a bad childhood. Now we CAN'T help each other out or WE wind up with more jail time than the perp. Look at this scenario: Save the guy. Is he going to cough up 30 or 40K to pay my legal bills? HAH! Will he support my family while I'm rotting in jail?Fat Chance! And if he was rich enough to be able to peel 40k out of his pocket, he'd have had a bodyguard with him and not have gotten into the mess to begin with. BTW ninja, here's a Dixie for you, and a PBR!@ (Red necks and white socks and Blue Ribbon Beer!)[:)]
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:21:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate:
Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: I hope that any civilian who tries to act like Batman gets arrested for obstruction of justice, ADW and depending on the outcome, 1st degree murder.
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... LOL, my fucking hero!
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If you were cop who stupidly lost his gun to a BG in a scuffle, and a good CCW guy was close by, Im sure you would change your tune REAL quick. You guys always assume that cops are at the scene as things happen, when in fact it is usually the opposite and you end-up being JUST the recorders of history. Also, by your statements, I would assume that you are against CCW for the REST of us CIVILIANS?
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[obviously can't recognize extreme sarcasm/]
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:24:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: "If Joe Citizen is too lazy to get a concealed handgun permit, buy a pistol, and learn when and how to use it, why should I save him from his own problem?"
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WTF! Let somebody,anybody get shoot/killed cuz it's easy!?! So anybody that dose not have a gun is worthless,if thats the way this guy tells you Americans should treat each other why the hell you spend a dime with him? Only a coward take the easy way out with somebody's life on the line,I don't want to go the jail but it's not right to stand by and let somebody be shot. This is how selfish anti-American nut jobs say we are why the hell would anyone want them to be right!
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:28:03 PM EDT
Hey, I have a hard-enough time trying to figure-out Imbroglios sarcasm...LOL
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 2:17:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 3:01:04 AM EDT
Hey don't forget about Joe Citizen who is smart enough to carry concealed, but isn't legally allowed to because he isn't 21 yet! (and in a non-CCW state[pissed])
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