Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 10/17/2002 9:30:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2002 10:23:22 AM EDT by kill-9]
From the front page of [url]http://www.abcnews.go.com/[/url]:
Investigators plan to comb federally licensed gun dealers' books about sales of different types of rifles that match ballistic evidence in their search for the D.C.-area sniper.
View Quote
Isn't it illegal for LEOs to access those records? [b]Edit:[/b] They've now removed the byline above from the front page and moved it to this one: [url]http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/sniperattacks_subindex.html[/url] [b]Edit 2:[/b] That particular byline is now gone altogether. Draw your own conclusions. -kill-9
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:40:54 AM EDT
They're desperate now. They will do anything legal or illegal at this point. How can they continue to justify their huge budgets if they can't solve this most important case? Kind of reminds me of how badly the FBI took a shellacking after the Lindberg baby kidnapping. So much for "no gun registration" and "we don't keep the background check records."
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:43:57 AM EDT
If this is allowed, we might as well get ready for the long ride down the slippery slope.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:50:33 AM EDT
They can't do this without a court order to EACH FFL dealer...WAIT A MINUTE HERE! We have a pro-2nd Amendment Attorney General running the show...oops, I forgot that he believes in "reasonable restrictions on the posession firearms particularly suited to criminal misuse." How do you all in the beltway like being part of another Operation Forward Trace? HAHAHA! And no one believed that I saw this the CBS news last week.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 10:05:07 AM EDT
I am reasonably certain ATF can search thru the "yellow forms" anytime they want. Wouldn't be much point in filling them out if they couldn't. Do you think the dealer needs that info? Yes, they are probably getting desparate. I would be surprised if they turned up anything but who knows?
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 10:09:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ameshawki: I am reasonably certain ATF can search thru the "yellow forms" anytime they want. Wouldn't be much point in filling them out if they couldn't. Do you think the dealer needs that info? Yes, they are probably getting desparate. I would be surprised if they turned up anything but who knows?
View Quote
When BATF inspects an FFL for compliance, they always go through the yellows. However, I don't know what, if any, information they record.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 10:27:04 AM EDT
Ya didn't think we filled out that paperwork for nuthin' did ya? [grenade] Scott
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 10:40:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By Ameshawki: I am reasonably certain ATF can search thru the "yellow forms" anytime they want. Wouldn't be much point in filling them out if they couldn't. Do you think the dealer needs that info? Yes, they are probably getting desparate. I would be surprised if they turned up anything but who knows?
View Quote
When BATF inspects an FFL for compliance, they always go through the yellows. However, I don't know what, if any, information they record.
View Quote
I walked into a shop one day, a bunch of suits in there, had a neat little tripod and digital camera, laying forms out 3 at a time and copying the top half. I guess they can record what they want!
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 2:48:35 PM EDT
Another reason to start using [url]www.the56.com[/url] for private sales.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 1:17:35 AM EDT
Guess the shooter's using one these from their POS webpage: [img]http://media.abcnews.com/media/FrontPage/images/weapons_021017_fp3.jpg[/img]
Moose stressed that the witness' description of the murder weapon as an AK-74 rifle was bogus and said investigators believe the sniper is using one of a family of more than 30 similar assault-type weapons capable of firing a .223-caliber bullet.
View Quote
Whatever fuckfaces. Guess bolt actions have already been ruled out. When's that giant meteorite gonna smash the shit out of this planet again? I welcome it, then civilization can start all over again. This time try not to fuck it up.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 2:31:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 3:45:02 AM EDT
How long do the 4473's have to be kept by FFL's and what happens to them afterward? Why don't they destroy the forms after a buyer passes the NICS? I'm not an FFL so I don't know the legal requirements for handling and storing the NICS forms.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 4:21:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2002 4:23:18 AM EDT by shamayim]
The 4473's have to be kept by the dealer so long as he is in business. There is no "expiration" on them. If the dealer goes out of business, the 4473's ARE TURNED OVER TO BATF. Understand; these forms were created to help law enforcment find out who purchased guns that had been recovered from the scene of a crime. They are supposed to start w/ the manufacturer (or imoporter), and find out what distributor the gun went to. The distributor then is contacted to find out what dealer got the gun. Finally the dealer is contacted, and thru the 4473, they are able (supposedly) to determine which John Q Citizen acquired the piece. The 4473s were never intended to be used as a way to find out how many or who had bought a given type of weapon. If the feds are in fact doing that now, they are wasting huge amounts of person hours (and our tax money) in what will almost certainly be a fruitless search. If, however, the shooter drops his weapon, and it should be recovered by law enforcement, then the 4473 covering the original sale might be a help in tracing the chain of ownership from the point of original sale. That's the ONLY thing those forms are good for. The fact that the forms are now being searched in the way that they are is a strong indication of just how desperate the law enforcement people are. Does the phrase "looking for a needle in a haystack" ring a bell? [:D]
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 5:05:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2002 5:05:35 AM EDT by Aces-and-Eights]
Originally Posted By oneshot1kill: How long do the 4473's have to be kept by FFL's and what happens to them afterward? Why don't they destroy the forms after a buyer passes the NICS? I'm not an FFL so I don't know the legal requirements for handling and storing the NICS forms.
View Quote
20 years after a transaction is made. [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#p45[/url]
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 5:18:55 AM EDT
ATF doesn't need a warrant to look through 4473's. But they do need a warrant to go to a LAGO and demand to see a weapon.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 5:38:47 AM EDT
When I first heard the lawdogs were beginning to snoop into the lives of law-abiding gun owners, and were knocking on doors in our area, I called my missus yesterday and reminded her about what to do if they show up on our front porch. 1. Don't open the door until you are satisfied as to their ID and that they pose no threat to you and the babies. 2. Demand to see ID and badges. Note names and numbers. 3. Deny entry unless presented with a properly executed warrant. 4. Refuse to answer any questions concerning our firearms, even if presented with known facts by the lawdogs. 5. Deny them access to any room, space, closet, basement, or any other part of the house and grounds not properly identified in the warrant. Whenever presented with a question such as; "Do you mind if we come in and look around?", the answer is an emphatic "NO, you may NOT!" If they are THAT interested, they will get a duly prepared warrant. 6. If handed a correct warrant, then by all means, let them in and be polite; we have nothing to hide. When the lawdogs find the gun safes, remind them that you do not have the combinations nor keys, and that they can (1) wait until I get home from work or, (2) come back another day. Don't get me wrong, I want to help and I want these guys caught. I don't think rousting innocent Americans is the way to catch the shooter[s]. Keystone Kops...that's what we got now.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 7:42:46 AM EDT
The copies of the 4473 do not belong to the FFL. holder. They are the property of the Treasury Department. If you have an FFL you are required to record and maintain the 4473's for the Govt. Being the property of the Treasury Department, they can be inspected by agents anytime. Don't want to keep records for the Govt.? Don't get an FFL.
Top Top