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Posted: 10/15/2002 10:40:27 AM EDT
I live in a house on 5 acres on a private road. I also own a lot on a lake that is just down this private road from our house (Wife and mine's retirement place some day). There is one house between our home and our lot. The other day my son and I rode our dirt bikes down to the lot and were pulling doughnuts. Our neighbor comes driving up at a high rate of speed, slams on the brakes, skidding close to my son, close enough to force him off the trail into the bush. I rode up in front of his jeep as he got out. He asked me what we are doing? I told him farting around doing doughnuts? He asked me if I knew who owned this land. I said yes, I do. He said Oh, Mind if I ask you a question? Why did I move up here anyway? I gave him a generic answer about my job. I preceded to defuse the situation as I was about half ready to kick his ass already and I know he's my neighbor. He obviously didn't recognize me at first. I've only lived here a little over a year. Prior to this my son and I were shooting the .22 in the back yard. We were being safe, shooting into a berm, know what's beyond the back stop, etc. when this guy's wife came over and asked us to stop. She was baby sitting her grand daughter and the noise was upsetting her and their dog. I said we would stop until her grand daughter left and again I defused the situation. So much for the back ground. Today there is an invitation to all the people on the road to a pot luck at these peoples house and have a discussion about forming an association. I think the things that I do for enjoyment may be the target. I suspect these people are the type that moved up here from the big city and want to turn this place in the woods into a gated community. Put up the fence now that I've got my 5 acres in God's country. What are my rights?
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 10:59:40 AM EDT
Do you have any FA toys? The association meeting might be a good time to open 'em up and rip off a few thousand rounds. :) Either that or go to the meeting and counter any BS this guy brings up. Many small towns in my area (mostly farming/ag. land) are passing resolutions against these types of carpetbaggers that come in to a farm land and then have the nerve to complain about bugs, crops, smoke, and tractors at night.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 11:01:22 AM EDT
So, how many divisions do your neighbors have? I'd just tell them to get bent. I'm diplomatic like that though.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 11:02:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: What are my rights?
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Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Plus doing 'donuts' on your property. And, with no ordinances against it, shooting .22s. [beer]
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 11:03:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 11:05:26 AM EDT by 2whiskeyP]
I hate this kind of sh!t!!! Fight it. I think if no association exists at this time that you do not have to join. Without 100% participation I can't see how they could form it. I hate people who move out to the country from the city and try to civilize us. If they don't like the way we do things they should [b]GET THE 'F' OUT!!!![/B] Don't know if this helps any but I am definately on your side![50]
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 12:53:49 PM EDT
Goet: I do plan on attending but I think I should try to win over people against it and your tack may alienate those I seek to ally with. Pony Boy: What do you mean? I think there are like 15 to 20 home/property owners that live down this private road. We already have a loose get together to share road maintenance costs. Some just don't pay so the rest of us kick in. Some are seasonal, some just own vacant land, and some of us (the majority) live here year round. Older_Crow: Those ordinances (future ones) are what has me worried. 2whiseyP: I think my only hope is to win a majority alliance against it. How does a group of homes become a village or city. Once that's accomplished you can't ignore city ordinances because you lived there before it became a city. [:(]
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:19:18 PM EDT
think sneaky! get right in there to their "meeting". i like to know my enemy. you'll have more of an advantage that way. i would be completely curtious, and try to bite my lip at first. use restraint. & GATHER INFO! after a while, & more exposure to them, & them to you, they may not end up wanting to raise a stink about anything. you'll have a better chance of avoiding a huge hassle. who knows, ya might covert some of these people, and gain allies. if ya go the other route, you'll have a confrontation on your hands. and being a gun owner nowadays, you DON'T want to draw attention to yourself.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:26:36 PM EDT
I feel for you man. I almost bought ten acres in a so-called good neighborhood until I found out they wanted to restrict Gun Ownership. I told them no way!!!!!! I'm an American first!!! This was in Florida. My neighborhood of 15 years has a few undesirables who try to be asses but my target practice lets them know which side of "NO BS" I stand for. I'm still an American!
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:36:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:38:44 PM EDT
While you're at the meeting, don't forget to take a smelly shit and use their "guest" towels to wipe yer ass!
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:39:26 PM EDT
Sounds like your neighbors are control freaks. Associations suck as those who become officers of associations seek to control what others can do with their property. Associations often collect outrageous dues to pay for things the officers want. If there is a meeting, try to turn it from an "association formation" meeting into a neighborhood watch formation meeting.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:52:35 PM EDT
Associations such as you describe cannot compell any action on your part unless you join and agree under some type of contractual basis to abide their rules. In extreme cases your purchase of a property and title to that property is predicated upon your agreeing to join an association, remaining in good standing and being bound by its association rules. A violation could result in your eviction from the property. Gated communities are a prime example. In your case the association is stricktly voluntary and would have no teeth to enforece any rules unless you agree to create them. I strongly suggest that you attend the meeting (people are much less agressive and more reluctant to voice opposition in your presence), listen to what they have to say and make it clear what your position is in a friendly manner. Explain that you are very safty conscious, and abide by the law and be prepared to maturely respond to concerns and opinions antithetical to your position.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:54:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE: While you're at the meeting, don't forget to take a smelly shit and use their "guest" towels to wipe yer ass!
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and don't forget the ever so popular; go into their bathroom with a camera, grab their toothbrush-stick the business end of it between your buttcheeks and take a pic trick. (of course, just the butt area with the toothbrush sticking out so the brush reconizable). hold on to the developed pic to use it as great ammo at a later date. or just send it to 'em a few months later.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 2:16:00 PM EDT
Halfcocked, One of the tricks you can use is buy a small game license. If you can hunt on your property you can shoot. My grandpa used to have the same issue with "city" people moving near his farm near Suttons Bay.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 3:27:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 3:30:18 PM EDT by thebrain]
Here is an opinion from a former MI,attorney general. STATE OF MICHIGAN FRANK J. KELLEY, ATTORNEY GENERAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Opinion No. 5960 August 18, 1981 FIREARMS: Limitation on target practice within a township The Game Law of 1929, 1929 PA 286, Sec. 10b does not prohibit target practice within a township. A hunting area control committee is empowered to adopt regulations prohibiting the discharge of firearms in a township or portions thereof in accordance with 1967 PA 159. Mr. Doyle A. Rowland Prosecuting Attorney County of Midland Courthouse Midland, Michigan 48640 You have requested my opinion on the following question: Does MCLA 312.10b(2) prohibit a land-owner from target practicing on his own property located in a township where other residences are within 150 yards, even though such target practicing is carried on in a safe and prudent manner? The Game Law of 1929, 1929 PA 286, Sec. 10b, as added by 1968 PA 61, MCLA 312.10b; MSA 13.1339(2), (1) provides as follows: '(1) For the purpose of this section, 'safety zone' means any area within 150 yards of any occupied dwelling house, residence, or any other building, cabin, camp or cottage when occupied by human beings or any barn or other building used in connection therewith. '(2) No person, other than the owner, tenant or occupant, shall shoot or discharge any firearm or other dangerous weapon, or hunt for or shoot any wild bird or wild animal while it is within such safety zone, without the specific permission of the owner, tenant or occupant thereof. '(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any landowner, tenant or occupant thereof or their invited guest while hunting on their own property, or to any riparian owner or their tenant or guest while shooting waterfowl lakeward over water from their upland or lakeward from a boat or blind over their submerged soil.' At the time the Legislature enacted amendatory 1968 PA 61, the title to 1929 PA 286, supra, stated: 'AN ACT to provide for the protection of wild animals and wild birds; to regulate the taking, possession, use and transportation of same; to prohibit the sale of game animals and birds; to regulate the manner of hunting, pursuing and killing game animals, birds and fur-bearing animals; to provide for the issuing of licenses and permits for the taking, hunting or killing of all wild animals and birds and the disposition of the moneys derived therefrom; to provide penalties for the violation of any of the provisions of this act, and to repeal certain acts relating thereto.' 1968 PA 61 did not amend the title to 1929 PA 286, supra. It is a cardinal rule of statutory construction that the Legislature is presumed to have intended the plain meaning of words used by it. Florentine Ristorante, Inc v City of Grandville, 88 Mich App 614, 619; 278 NW2d 694, lv den 406 Mich 963 (1979). The Legislature in the enactment of 1929 PA 286, supra, indicated in the title thereof its intention to provide for the protection of wild animals and wild birds; to regulate the taking, possession, use and transportation of same; and, to regulate the manner of hunting, pursuing and killing game animals, birds and fur-bearing animals. 1929 PA 286, Sec. 10b, supra, as set forth above in (2) thereof, further regulates the hunting and taking of wild birds or wild animals within the safety zone as defined in (1). The focus of this section is the hunting and taking of wild birds and wild animals. Thus, the intention of the Legislature, 1929 PA 286, Sec. 10b, supra, was the control and limitation of the discharge of weapons in the hunting and taking of wild birds and wild game and not the discharge of weapons in target practice activities. [red]It is my opinion, therefore, that 1929 PA 286, Sec. 10b(2), supra, does not prohibit a landowner from target practicing on his own property where other residences are within 150 yards, even though target practice is carried on in a safe and prudent manner.[/red] While 1929 PA 286, Sec. 10b, supra, does not regulate or prohibit target practice within a township not involving hunting, the Legislature has provided for the regulation and prohibition of the discharge of firearms in townships by 1967 PA 159, MCLA 317.331 et seq; MSA 13.1397(101) et seq. In 1967 PA 159, supra, Sec. 1, the Legislature has authorized the creation of a hunting area control committee and empowered it, in the interest of public safety and general welfare, to regulate and prohibit the discharge of firearms upon resolution of the township board that the safety and well being of persons or property are in danger because of the discharge of firearms. 1967 PA 159, supra, Sec. 2. After a public hearing, the committee submits its findings and recommendations in the form of proposed regulations to the township board for its approval. 1967 PA 159, supra, Sec. 3. If the township board approves the proposed regulations, the committee reports them in accordance with 1969 PA 306, MCLA 24.201 et seq; MSA 3.560(101) et seq. For examples of regulations promulgated by such committees, see 1979 MAC R 317.120.3 et seq. It is further my opinion that a hunting area control committee is empowered to prohibit the discharge of firearms in the township or portions thereof. Frank J. Kelley Attorney General (1) The Legislature has enacted the Hunting and Fishing License Act, 1980 PA 86, MCLA 316.10 et seq; MSA 13.1350(101) et seq, repealing many sections of 1929 PA 286, supra, but leaving Sec. 10b intact. There are more law that witch state you can shoot on your privet property, Look on the attourny gerenrals web page and the Michigan web pages. If you don't live in a township, city or village, that has ordnances prohibiting your action you are in the right. If not as long as you shoot safely you are legit. As for the bikes your land you can drive where ever you want and how you want. I have a shot story. I was at my fathers In Tyrone township MI. I was shooting my 40sw and a 22 mag. The neighbors call the state police out. When they arrived my father asked them what he could do for them, the police mentioned the call. My dad asked if there was a law prohibiting me from target practice, Cop said no, Dad said have a nice day, Cop left, neighbor never bitched again.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 4:05:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: Pony Boy: What do you mean? I think there are like 15 to 20 home/property owners that live down this private road. We already have a loose get together to share road maintenance costs. Some just don't pay so the rest of us kick in. Some are seasonal, some just own vacant land, and some of us (the majority) live here year round.
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Yes, but how many divisons of troops do they have? It's kind of hard to stop a guy with a gun by only using harsh language and mean faces. I'd go to their little party to find out what it's all about and if it didn't go to my liking I'd tell them all to blow me.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 4:54:40 PM EDT
Forget about the rights and wrongs and whatever the "law" is for a second. An association has the combined resources of many people which can be used to fund a legal action against you. Your defense is funded by your own resources. I would do whatever I could to stay out of court because you may run up a 6 figure legal bill to prove you are right.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 5:13:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 5:21:51 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 6:10:38 PM EDT
Halfcocked, How about a Black Rifle party at your house?
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 6:52:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 7:02:19 PM EDT by Halfcocked]
Robertesq1: Thanks for that point of view. I hope "esq" in your handle is for Esquire. One of the people that lives here is an attorney that "has researched the subject and will describe a legal, but simple process...". I won't sign anything. Aimless: He works out of town quite a bit. I run into his wife all the time. I spend lots of time just out strolling through the woods and so does she....with her annoying dog. That's one of the things I'm going to bring up. What bothers you most about the motor cycles. Noise. Oh so it's a noise issue right? Yes. Does dog barking bother you? (Her dog was a rescue. It has problems, one is barking. They let it run free. I've never complained.) Loud out door music? (Lawyer lady is in a country rock band and in the summer they practice in their garage. Can here it at my place about 1/4 mi. away. Again I've never complained.) Actually what they do and even her dog don't bother me that much. I do deer hunt and wish people would restrain their animals but hey, I'll just walk a little further into the bush. There's a beaver dam that I can cross that will stop most domestic critters. I do like seeing the deer in my back yard and they haven't been around as much when the dog is out though. Also you're right, my house, his house, our lake front piece. Never thought of that angle though. I don't care if still goes down there and hangs out, fishes, anchors a boat or what ever...at least until we build down there. Thanks to everyone else for your support. Any of you Michigan dudes and/or dudets that want to come up for a shoot are more than welcome. Rim fire around the house would be fine but not anything more powerfull. I only have 5 acres. I live only 45 miniutes from Cadilac Sportsman Club and they have a High Power range out to 600 yrds. plus there is all kinds of state land around here for just informal plinking.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 7:16:09 PM EDT
Yes, I'm a lawyer, albeit not in your area. Keep us posted there are alot of resources in the legal forum.
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