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Posted: 10/13/2002 7:59:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 8:10:30 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:04:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:09:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 8:10:42 AM EDT by liberty86]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: Those cops on the side of the road in VA that were wearing masks.... have committed a class 6 felony. [i] 18.2-422. Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions - It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, [or to be] or [appear] upon any private property in this State without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. [Provided] However, [that] [red]the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons[/red] (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; [or to persons] (ii) [red]engaged in professions,[/red] trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks [red]which are deemednecessary for the physical safety of the wearer[/red] or other persons; [or to persons] (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.[/i] Now if they were raiding a drug lab one could argue taht the mask provided for some physical safety, but in the situation out on the highway id did nothing but obscuer identity.... not provide physical safety. Yup, class 6 felony.
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Nope, no felony...They must keep themselves safe from their fellow citizens. The mask wearers were called up from undercover work in the "War on Drugs", or "War on Terror".....or some other "War on..." Nice Try......
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:09:46 AM EDT
It [b]is[/b] for physical safety. [b]IF[/b] they are normally undercover personnel protecting their identities..... Scott
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:12:17 AM EDT
Same here in Oklahoma
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:15:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 8:17:41 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:16:18 AM EDT
Masks are used to instill fear in perps.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:20:40 AM EDT
SHEESH... Do not ever try to practice law. I can pull about 6 different ways to demolish your statement, just out of the paragraph you have provided. I do feel that they were a little over-zealous with the masks, but it was no big deal. A lot of you guys think they were pulled-off current UC assignments to do street-duty? Bullshit, HOWEVER... If they are in a department that MAY put them in UC positions, they have every right to conceal their identity. HOWEVER... That does not mean I will stop for an unmarked car or cooperate with a plainclothes if I don't think he's legitimate.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:21:25 AM EDT
Let's not get this can of worms opened again. There's a thread of Yahoo! pics where a lot of us really showed our asses by LEO bashing. The LEOs in masks were either off duty of undercover guys that either got 'drafted' or volenteered to pitch in checking cars. It was one of those things that looked like hell, but wasn't as bad as it looked if you think about it. Some LEO that was there also posted a thread explaining what was going on, and it sounded fairly reasonable to me.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:22:28 AM EDT
[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:22:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hmanjr: Masks are used to instill fear in perps.
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[i]AND innocent civilians[/i]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:27:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 8:29:55 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:29:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:04:19 AM EDT
Some people will complain about anything. The ones complaining about cops wearing masks (for whatever justifiable reason) are probably the same ones that would sue McDonalds because they spilled hot coffee on themselves. Big freakin' whoop... They wear masks. Like it was said before, they wear the mask for personal protection. The mask does protect them from physical harm. What if they are undercover and they are "discovered". I would tend to think my personal safety would suddenly be at risk, and if wearing a mask prevents that... then well, it is legal.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:06:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 9:11:16 AM EDT by LE6920]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By LE6920: [rolleyes]
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Intelligent reply. Since you are a LEO, and in VA, can you refute this law, or provie a LE exemption elsewhere in teh VA Code?
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Who said they aren't operating under federal guidelines.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:14:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:15:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: It [b]is[/b] for physical safety. [b]IF[/b] they are normally undercover personnel protecting their identities..... Scott
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A real strecth. The mask provides no protection from a physical hazard while being worn, only obscures identity, and one has to be able to reasonably articulate thet they would be in physical danger if their identity became known..... BUT their identity will become known in court anyway, so that arguement is weak. Under that arguement, ALL cops should wear masks as they are all pissing off criminals every day. There is an arguement that it will blow whatever cases they are wiorking, but that is not covered by the statute. The mask does not protect from physical harm, only from identities being revealed. If protecting an idenity is needed for safety, they should find a legal way to do it. Once again, the statute says the mask is to protect from physical hazards, not to protect from something that may lead to physical hazards.
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[b]Do not question the professional "Law Enforcement" actions and/or behaviors![/b] (walks away) *&%$#@$%&*....uppity citizens......how's a guy supposed to look cool....
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:22:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: Who says they are? And, does operating under federal "guidelines" (what exactly are federal guidlines?) they are automaticy exempt them from all state and local laws?
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Hey! It worked for Lon Horiuchi didn't it??? (garand, you sure are uppity today....)
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:22:57 AM EDT
Who needs lawyers when we have all these internet legal experts? Maybe this is one of those infuriating LE exceptions/exemptions, where cops get to do stuff, have stuff, and (gasp!) *wear stuff* that ordinary citizens can't do, have, or wear. Ban the balaclava!! Do it for the children!! But whatever you do, please spare the baklava! [:p]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:24:38 AM EDT
Hey... I LIKE BAKLAVA! Even though it's a middle-eastern treat...=(
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:27:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 9:30:47 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:31:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Who needs lawyers when we have all these internet legal experts? [red]Maybe this is one of those infuriating LE exceptions/exemptions, where cops get to do stuff, have stuff, and (gasp!) *wear stuff* that ordinary citizens can't do, have, or wear.[/red] Ban the balaclava!! Do it for the children!! But whatever you do, please spare the baklava! [:p]
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And there you have the problem. LEO's should not be allowed to have or do anything that their fellow civilians cannot. Untill us uppity peasants are eliminated this debate will continue. I think the real problem LEO's have with issues like this is they really do think they are "special" and "above" the average citizen and that they should be allowed to have and do things that us serfs can't. Because if you take away their military gear and ninja toys, they are, in their minds, just security guards.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:36:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 9:42:04 AM EDT by Zak]
Originally Posted By liberty86: Hey! It worked for Lon Horiuchi didn't it???
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To be fair, a federal appeals court ruled that Horiuchi WAS subject to Idaho state law... Of course, they did it eight YEARS after the crime took place, and the DA (who was not the original DA who brought the case) decided that it "wasn't worth it" to prosecute so long after the fact. You know, I really want them to catch that sniper in MD/VA--but I hope Lon Horiuchi's out pumping gas and takes one in the face first. (edited to fix typo.)
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:40:14 AM EDT
I get pissed off every time I see "RESTRICTED FOR GOVERNMENT OR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY".
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:40:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Maybe this is one of those infuriating LE exceptions/exemptions
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Doesn't seem to be.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:47:21 AM EDT
Forget the illegal balaclavas. Lets keep it even simpler. [img]http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/1066/no_pedestrians.gif[/img] There are laws that state: NO pedestrians "allowed" on the highways. They are a traffic hazard. One can put a serious dent on a brand new vehicle if you accidentally hit one of the pedestrians.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:49:56 AM EDT
I agree, in theory, that with adequate training we should all be able to perform all the actions of law enforcement, have all the same gear, and so on. That's a nice abstract notion. In reality, however, we delegate LE authority to our government, LE policy making to politicians, and LE activities to professional cops. They're doing the job WE gave them to do. Do you want to perform ALL functions of government? Build roads, provide education, set and enforce foreign policy, etc? You're gonna be a busy guy...
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:57:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zak:
Originally Posted By liberty86: Hey! It worked for Lon Horiuchi didn't it???
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To be fair, a federal appeals court ruled that Horiuchi WAS subject to Idaho state law... Of course, they did it eight YEARS after the crime took place, and the DA (who was not the original DA who brought the case) decided that it "wasn't worth it" to prosecute so long after the fact. You know, I really want them to catch that sniper in MD/VA--but I hope Lon Horiuchi's out pumping gas and takes one in the face first. (edited to fix typo.)
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Zak, you really oughta express your feelings without worrying about what others may think.... Are we to assume you are NOT a member of Lon's fan club???
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 10:02:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Are we to assume you are NOT a member of Lon's fan club???
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I'm not a fan of anyone that can shoot an innocent mother holding a child in the head.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 10:41:32 AM EDT
This whole thread is another example of why civilians should speak only when spoken to.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 10:49:57 AM EDT
All I have to say on the matter is this: Around here the soccer mom's are handing out cookies to those guys in balaclavas. And AR owners are the ones bakin' 'em!!! That's how FUBAR'd the situation is at ground zero. I say let 'em be.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 11:27:16 AM EDT
I brought this up in the other "mask" thread and was pretty much ignored. I'm very tired of public "officials" using their station to secure special rights for themselves that the regular people cannot have. If all that government means is that there is a select group of people who get to do all the "bad" things, then why even have goverment at all? Personally, I think the huge LE involvement in the MD/VA sniper case is the problem--too many people have the mindset that this is a job solely for the police and that they have no responsibility to protect themselves. Only the government can do anything. We all know that the government is totally incompetent and cannot be everywhere at once. Had our ancestors (the early settlers of America) who survived untold indian raids and other incursions, lived under this mindset, there would be no United States of America today. This is the danger of statism--it ties your hands, keeps you from acting in your best interests. And now we have cops wearing masks and people somehow think it is "reasonable." I'm sure the Nazis had all kinds of reasonable rationales for everything they did, too. It was still ALL WRONG! "The executioners face is always well hidden." -- Bob Dylan
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 11:38:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: I brought this up in the other "mask" thread and was pretty much ignored. I'm very tired of public "officials" using their station to secure special rights for themselves that the regular people cannot have. If all that government means is that there is a select group of people who get to do all the "bad" things, then why even have goverment at all? Personally, I think the huge LE involvement in the MD/VA sniper case is the problem--too many people have the mindset that this is a job solely for the police and that they have no responsibility to protect themselves. Only the government can do anything. We all know that the government is totally incompetent and cannot be everywhere at once. Had our ancestors (the early settlers of America) who survived untold indian raids and other incursions, lived under this mindset, there would be no United States of America today. This is the danger of statism--it ties your hands, keeps you from acting in your best interests. And now we have cops wearing masks and people somehow think it is "reasonable." I'm sure the Nazis had all kinds of reasonable rationales for everything they did, too. It was still ALL WRONG! "The executioners face is always well hidden." -- Bob Dylan
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Well said, dito!
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 11:46:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Originally Posted By DScott: Who needs lawyers when we have all these internet legal experts? [red]Maybe this is one of those infuriating LE exceptions/exemptions, where cops get to do stuff, have stuff, and (gasp!) *wear stuff* that ordinary citizens can't do, have, or wear.[/red] Ban the balaclava!! Do it for the children!! But whatever you do, please spare the baklava! [:p]
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And there you have the problem. LEO's should not be allowed to have or do anything that their fellow civilians cannot. Untill us uppity peasants are eliminated this debate will continue. I think the real problem LEO's have with issues like this is they really do think they are "special" and "above" the average citizen and that they should be allowed to have and do things that us serfs can't. Because if you take away their military gear and ninja toys, they are, in their minds, just security guards.
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Very well said Spectre and it echoed my feelings as well,Here in the people's republic of NJ they had a law against civilians wearing bullet proof vests,they had the law repealed and replaced with a law saying it was against the law to wear one while committing a crime,shocked the shit out of me ,who would have thought that some law makers would actually see something clearly for a change.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 11:50:30 AM EDT
I agree with trickshots view. ditto.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 12:31:42 PM EDT
Throughout history masks have been used by people to hide their faces when they perform evil, unpleasant or criminal acts. executioners bandits and burglers secret police KKK terrorists etc....etc.... People associate masks with evil so why do the leo's think they will get a favorable response when they show up looking like one of the group mentioned above ?? Masks are used to intimidate people and make them afraid. When someone is afraid they are more likely to comply with the orders given by the masked thugs and thats just the response LEO's want.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 12:32:37 PM EDT
Can y'all STFU and unwad your panties over the fuckin' masks already. Shit. Scott
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 1:34:16 PM EDT
First, Garand Shooter, from which state is the statute you posted? Second, can we give this a rest. I have not chimed in either way and I can see both sides of the argument, but this horse is so dead that it has already been turned into glue, so stop beating it.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 1:43:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Throughout history masks have been used by people to hide their faces when they perform evil, unpleasant or criminal acts. executioners bandits and burglers secret police KKK terrorists etc....etc.... People associate masks with evil so why do the leo's think they will get a favorable response when they show up looking like one of the group mentioned above ?? Masks are used to intimidate people and make them afraid. When someone is afraid they are more likely to comply with the orders given by the masked thugs and thats just the response LEO's want.
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If this is their goal, and this is such an effective technique, how come they weren't ALL doing it? Is it more effective if only SOME of the hundreds of officers out there that day are wearing masks?
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 1:43:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lazyshooter:
Originally Posted By Hmanjr: Masks are used to instill fear in perps.
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[i]AND innocent civilians[/i]
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There are no innocent civilians, only perps.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 1:46:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 1:49:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: I get pissed off every time I see "RESTRICTED FOR GOVERNMENT OR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY".
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Why? *You* are the government, I have tons of magazines that say they are for my use only, don't you? I have all sorts of things that are restricted to the governemnt, and since *I* am the governemnt, I feel perfectly within my rights to buy and use them. Government for the people, by the people...right?
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:09:18 PM EDT
Man I didnt know how bad it was till the last couple of posts here ..This country is full of some real TURDS..Garand where did you find this info and do you really have that much time on your hands to stew,fume and research this stuff.Dont you have kids to go out and play with. Spetre..what is your problem?? you must have had some real sour run ins with the Police somewhere to make you this bitter.. Hey maybe since it is like say Fall and it is in the Northeast that perhaps its uhmmm COLD.I know that if I was working a traffic detail like that I would have a mask to keep the cold of my face..or is that not allowed either since that would be taking advantage of our position as "LEO"..oh wait he also had on gloves ...maybe he is trying to hide his fingerprints.....grow up guys..... you guys can sit at home inside your houses and throw rocks at the very people that patrol and stand watch to keep a little bit of peice and safety to your community as best they can with whatever they can and then they have to hear this crap spew out of your sewers...either join in the fun and help out or Shut your pie hole and leave us be......
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:14:54 PM EDT
first of all the wearing of the masks was a bad public relations decision. i won't argue the legality of the decision. these kind of acts only inflame some people and give them something to feed on. in my opinion it was a bad decision for the police and for the general public. basically a no win situation.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:17:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SNOWPIG: Man I didnt know how bad it was till the last couple of posts here ..This country is full of some real TURDS..Garand where did you find this info and do you really have that much time on your hands to stew,fume and research this stuff.Dont you have kids to go out and play with. Spetre..what is your problem?? you must have had some real sour run ins with the Police somewhere to make you this bitter.. Hey maybe since it is like say Fall and it is in the Northeast that perhaps its uhmmm COLD.I know that if I was working a traffic detail like that I would have a mask to keep the cold of my face..or is that not allowed either since that would be taking advantage of our position as "LEO"..oh wait he also had on gloves ...maybe he is trying to hide his fingerprints.....grow up guys..... you guys can sit at home inside your houses and throw rocks at the very people that patrol and stand watch to keep a little bit of peice and safety to your community as best they can with whatever they can and then they have to hear this crap spew out of your sewers...either join in the fun and help out or Shut your pie hole and leave us be......
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, if you and your ilk Snowpig would just get out of our way, we could take care of ourselves. But of course, you would have to find real work then, right?
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:24:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2002 2:26:57 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:27:40 PM EDT
take care of your selves..oh yeah that would work...may then I could find real work and not have to babysit you crybabies...I know this job isnt for you ..you dont have the stones...
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:38:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:41:58 PM EDT
Garand It is not that I have to resort to name calling to get any point accross ..it just really upsets me that in a time when this Nation is being attacked by unknow enemies we are also attacking each other.Why must a topic that has such little bearing on your day to day life mean that much to you and then for you (in general not personal) feel that LEO are there to intimidate and scare the public. I have been at this for about 8 years now and it is a stressful job..not a real job just stressful..You should know if your wife is s dispatcher..Yeah I choose this career and dont think I would want to do anything else.But I just get upset when people armchair quarterback and think they have all the answers...If I got a little defensive and insulted anybody here then I do appologize for my statements..After all it is the First Amendement right...freedom of speach..I will try and keep my comments more civil...forgive..
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:53:15 PM EDT
Civilians run this country. We have oversite privileges over the - government, - military, and - law enforcement. You are the ones who have to explain yourselves to us. Civilian Review Boards, though often perverted by people with grudges, are to oversee your actions. I like you, but try not to act like I don't have the right to ask questions.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 2:54:01 PM EDT
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