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Posted: 10/12/2002 8:08:03 AM EDT
A buddy of mine brought his girlfriend with us to a crow shoot/(handgun&rifle practice) today...well my friend was showing his girlfriend how to correctly shoot the handgun when she though she heard "fire" and decided to pull the trigger while we were explaining the basics....I only have sore ears but my buddy has powerburns and a cut on his forehead from the spent round. Sadly because of this I doubt she will ever hold a gun again.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:12:00 AM EDT
Why was she holding a loaded gun while having the BASICS explained??
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:14:42 AM EDT
Lord have mercy. Glad it wasn't worse.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:16:22 AM EDT
Maybe she shouldn't. At the very least she should have had a fair amount of safety training prior to handling a loaded handgun. Handguns should always come after demonstrated proficiency and experience in long guns IMO.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:17:56 AM EDT
That reminds me of the joke: What did the Tech Grad say to the UVA grad? Do you want fries with that order...[shock]
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:18:52 AM EDT
1) the gun is always loaded 2) Never point the gun at anything you do not want to destroy 3) do not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire 4) know what is behind your target. 5-1,000,000) the gun is always loaded
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:21:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2002 8:36:33 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Originally Posted By WofWof: That reminds me of the joke: What did the Tech Grad say to the UVA grad? Do you want fries with that order...[shock]
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Women at VMI? What the hell! Next thing you know, there will be men at UVA!
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:22:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Maybe she shouldn't. At the very least she should have had a fair amount of safety training prior to handling a loaded handgun. Handguns should always come after demonstrated proficiency and experience in long guns IMO.
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She said she had been hunting prior to going out with us...hell I am just glad I was standing back 10 feet
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:27:07 AM EDT
Yet another reason women should never leave the kitchen. BTW, not an AD, but very much a ND. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:31:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Maybe she shouldn't. At the very least she should have had a fair amount of safety training prior to handling a loaded handgun. Handguns should always come after demonstrated proficiency and experience in long guns IMO.
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She said she had been hunting prior to going out with us...hell I am just glad I was standing back 10 feet
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Glad you are ok and your buddy wasn't killed. Sounds like a close one. However, assumption is...? Damn, there were so many gun safety rules violated here it is ridiculous. Dumbest one of all is getting in front of a loaded weapon. If she has shooting experience and still did this then I'd reiterate my opinion that maybe she shouldn't handle guns at all. At a minimum she should attend an organized gun instruction. This is not a flame so don't take it that way but we can't afford for any of us to be accidentally shot--for a variety of reasons.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:36:27 AM EDT
Oh shit, miss worded a big thing in my first post, was hit by ejected case not ROUND
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:44:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: Oh shit, miss worded a big thing in my first post, was hit by ejected case not ROUND
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Alright, bud. Sorry if it seems I'm getting on your case. Do the same thing to my kids and even a few patients when they do dumb things that endanger themselves. It's just out of concern. Glad you're both okay. FWIW, I'm very careful about who I shoot with. Very careful.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 8:52:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: Oh shit, miss worded a big thing in my first post, was hit by ejected case not ROUND
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Alright, bud. Sorry if it seems I'm getting on your case. Do the same thing to my kids and even a few patients when they do dumb things that endanger themselves. It's just out of concern. Glad you're both okay. FWIW, I'm very careful about who I shoot with. Very careful.
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Hey no prob...I should have played more of a role in the shooting lesson. BTW I am very thickskined so flame away
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 11:03:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: A buddy of mine brought his girlfriend with us to a crow shoot/(handgun&rifle practice) today...well my friend was showing his girlfriend how to correctly shoot the handgun when she though she heard "fire" and decided to pull the trigger while we were explaining the basics....I only have sore ears but my buddy has powerburns and a cut on his forehead from the spent round. Sadly because of this I doubt she will ever hold a gun again.
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Not meant as an insult but your buddy isn't too bright for teaching with a loaded gun. Ever hear of dry fire?
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 2:18:46 PM EDT
Id bring her out again if shes willing . Ill bet both of you will be a lot more attentive and professional. I know i am since i had an AD a few years ago AD's have a way of quickly educating people that being careless or distracted while handling a firearm is not something good.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 2:45:47 PM EDT
I’m not entirely certain this was the girlfriend’s fault - maybe she needs a new instructor!! However, this being pretty much a male only forum, I’m sure almost everyone here will gladly blame her.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 2:46:52 PM EDT
I took a friend of mine to the range a couple of weeks ago. It had been years since he'd shot a gun. He was really looking forward to it. So, I explain all the safety rules and show him the proper use of the AR15. He assures me he understands and reminds me that he was in the military and had experience with the M16. I let him go at it. I walk down towards the other end of the range to check out what another shooter has. I look back in time to see a yellowjacket land on his neck. We had been assaulted by them all day. He freaks out, standing up and swinging my AR15 wildly around with his finger on the trigger. I immediately yell at him to STOP that shit and put the rifle down with the barrel pointed down range. I know my face was red. In the friendliest manner possible, I bitched him out. [:D] USPC40 [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/line.gif[/img] [url=www.nra.org][b][red]NRA[/red][/url] [url=www.nra.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][b][red]GOA[/red] [/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.saf.org][red]SAF[/red][/url] [url=www.saf.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][red]SAS[/red][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/b][/url] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/alabamaflag.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 7:09:22 PM EDT
Take her back out again,you learn much from what don't kill you ! If you have never had an AD then you just haven't been around or shot enough guns yet! Glad nobody was hurt! Bob [:D]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 7:14:58 PM EDT
Take her back out. The newbie shouldn't have to pay for you guy's mistake.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 7:26:41 PM EDT
Take her shooting again, and find someone who knows what they are doing to instruct her on firearms safety. Oh, and don't train someone with a round in the chamber!
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 7:41:52 PM EDT
How the f*ck did he get powder burns on his forehead??? I'd say that as long as the gun was pointed down range with the safety off, and she was ready to fire, you must expect her to fire! If your friend was still talking to her with his face in front of the ejection path...he needs to learn something about newbies...they [u]can't[/u] wait to start. Once the safety is off, get behind them!
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 7:53:14 PM EDT
You have to keep a handel on your FNGs[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:17:51 PM EDT
The three of you will have to decide but not everybody should have a gun, especially a handgun. Some people just don't have their shit together. It's as simple as that. Plenty of people driving every day who probably shouldn't be either. My son first shot a handgun when he was 9. He knew better. Way better, and he was only 9. When I was a kid we hunted with one of my Dad's friends and his kid. He used to sneak a little snort(booze) now and then while we where hunting. After a short time we quit hunting with them. A year or two later he shot his own kid in the head with a .22. My friend survived... Quit shooting and hunting with one of my friends that I turned on to shooting as he was simply unsafe. He'd call me to go to the range and I declined after I found out he was taking the family and wanted me to bring mine. You'd have to know them. Gave his wife a loaded handgun and she swung it around pointing it at everyone while she yacked away. He wasn't safe himself much less capable of teaching safety to anyone else. He wouldn't listen to me. 2 days ago I was going hunting and some idiot walking down a paved road with a shotgun was swinging it around over his shoulder and must've pointed the damn thing at me 5-6 times before I got past. Had a few choice words for him. No, some people should never get within 10 feet of a gun, period. Choose your shooting partners with care. That's my advice.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 8:56:26 PM EDT
Drjarhead You are right as some people have no need for a gun,point is I love my mother and have allways felt bad as her husband is dead,no one to protect her! Wanted to get her a small pistol that she can handle,her reply is that I wouldn't shoot anyone! So at 78 years old she will rely on her neighbors or the police to protect her! I love her asmuch to let her live her life! Not mine as I would think to protect my life,so If people don't want guns in their lives so be it! So if the only time you are in life or death situations is on the range,then you must not drive! As just going to the range you pass by cars at sixty miles an hour only 3 feet ,give or take from the center line! Talking on cell phones,eating Mc Breakfasts,all attention diverted from where it should be! Thats where the real problem is you may have just missed death by a two ton bullet,traveling at one mile per minute, So yes some people should not have guns,and point in case should not have a vehicle either! So can we teach them to handle a firearm or a vehicle properly? Thats the real question,as gun control or vehiclear manslauther control just doesn't work! We need to educate and enforce the laws that are in force,in both guns and the way we drive! Don't drink and drive nor eat and drive! Every gun is a loaded gun! Bob
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 9:38:17 PM EDT
I only have sore ears but my buddy has powerburns and a cut on his forehead from the spent round.
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Macho Man, where was the hearing and eye protection?
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 11:02:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:38:58 AM EDT
Ok, let's get a few things straight. AD - Accidental Discharge - firearm unintentionally discharged due to a mechanical failure, unintended actuation of the trigger by external object, discharge due to dropping, etc. ND - Negligent Discharge - weapon discharges unintentionally when someone activates the trigger mechanism. This event was obviously an ND. The gun did precisely what it was meant to do. Operator pulled trigger, gun went bang. Big_Bear - sorry, dude, but you may not yet have had an AD or an ND, but you will eventually. If you obey the first three rules of gun safety, no harm will result.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:43:23 AM EDT
I've got one for you guys. I have dropped the decockers on weapons many times in the past 15 years and 3 of them fired! I no longer use decockers. Is that an AD or ND? I would assume AD. The guns in question were: Walther P-38 Bersa .380 don't remember the 3rd, very long ago. The Walther has a rep for doing that, the Bersa's firing pin had broken in half in the center. The inertia of the hammer falling sent the front half of the FP with enough force to fire the shell. Balming
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 12:12:20 PM EDT
Balming- What you had was a true AD/ I had an old surplus Chinese 9mm that did the same. I sent it back to the smith right away! Rule of thumb - finger on trigger = ND. No finger on trigger = AD. I am just glad that no one got hurt in the incident that started this thread!
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 12:38:04 PM EDT
I have a range my property, and "informally" taught hundreds of people to shoot. I never had an AD/ND, but had loaded guns pointed at me and other things that make me shiver to this day. I realized I didn't want to wing-it any more and got NRA Instructor certified. Do yourself and those around you a favor - do it right or find someone who can. Even though a basic class only covers the basics, it's the most important part to get right. I believe you're at the other end of the State, but if she's ever in the Richmond area I'll cover the first two courses for free. I'm glad you're all okay! Black Fox
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 12:56:09 PM EDT
There is no such thing as an AD "Accidental Discharge", there are only ND's "Negligent Discharge"!! [soapbox] c.g.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 12:57:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARgon: 1) the gun is always loaded 2) Never point the gun at anything you do not want to destroy 3) do not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire 4) know what is behind your target. 5-1,000,000) the gun is always loaded
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Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, Ditto. I think it's extrememly important that she get back on the saddle immediately!!! I think it's 10 times more important for a woman to know how to handle a handgun than a man. If she doesn't to it right away, she may never hold one again. I don't know what the ratio of men to women that get raped each year, but I'm pretty sure that women are more at risk for violent attacks. How would you feel if someone broke into your house while she was alone, had a gun, but couldn't use it, and she was seriously harmed or killed. That's why I insisted on showing my wife. She had no intrest in it whatsoever, but now, she's mildly intrested, and she can defend herself. A couple of months after I helped my wife to learn to load a gun and shoot it (safely), we had a person snooping around the house, and my wife was alone. She calmly loaded my Steven's double barrell 16ga, and was "ready" incase he came in the house. When I came home she just casually mentioned that the shotgun was loaded and why, and I was very proud of her. She wasn't even really rattled. Later, she said she really understood the importance of firearms for self defence and agreed that responsible people should own them and know how to use them (yeah!!)
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 1:07:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CoyoteGray: There is no such thing as an AD "Accidental Discharge", there are only ND's "Negligent Discharge"!! [soapbox] c.g.
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My Remington 700 use to fire a round when I would take the safety off. Did it three times (once to me and twice to my dad). Since I was following the safety rules the riffle shot tward a safe direction and no one was hurt or alarmed (except me). Found out it is a common problem on old 700's, and all you can do is clean the system out and be safe. To this day I never use the safety on that riffle, and I don't chamber a round until I'm close to getting a shot off. Would you still consider that a ND? There was nothing negligent about what I did.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:07:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By talbalos:
I only have sore ears but my buddy has powerburns and a cut on his forehead from the spent round.
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Macho Man, where was the hearing and eye protection?
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since we were only shooting one at a time we were swapping the ear protectors between shooters and the non shooters were holding the ears... Also I have personally NEVER discharged a gun accidently or neglegently and I have been shooting for twenty years now. I have also instucted people how to shoot, however being that it was my friends girlfriend I felt it to be appropriete for him to teach her, however I should have seen that she had her finger on the trigger and spoke up...but I also felt it was a neglect in common sense on her part because she pulled the trigger with her boyfriend 2 feet from the chamber.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:38:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
If you have never had an AD then you just haven't been around or shot enough guns yet!
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bullshit
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I second that motion. Apparently US Army Rangers have not been around or shot enough guns. An AD or ND in Ranger School and you fail, no questions. One in Ranger Battalion, you get kicked out to a leg unit like the 82nd.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:48:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
If you have never had an AD then you just haven't been around or shot enough guns yet!
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bullshit
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I second that motion. Apparently US Army Rangers have not been around or shot enough guns. An AD or ND in Ranger School and you fail, no questions. One in Ranger Battalion, you get kicked out to a leg unit like the 82nd.
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And I 3rd it. You can't have an AD if you are trying not to,if you are not trying to [b]NOT[/b] an AD you are negligent. I have in fact had an AD and yes I was negligent. I let somebody look at my new CCW and after put the hammer down to fast with out looking to see if he had put a round in and bang! Was I a dumb ass? YES was I negligent? VERY Did I have to do this as part of my life of gun ownership? hell no,I could have gone just fine with out ever doing it. Learn from others before somebody gets shot.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 4:58:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Papagallo:
Originally Posted By CoyoteGray: There is no such thing as an AD "Accidental Discharge", there are only ND's "Negligent Discharge"!! [soapbox] c.g.
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My Remington 700 use to fire a round when I would take the safety off. Did it three times (once to me and twice to my dad). Since I was following the safety rules the riffle shot tward a safe direction and no one was hurt or alarmed (except me). Found out it is a common problem on old 700's, and all you can do is clean the system out and be safe. To this day I never use the safety on that riffle, and I don't chamber a round until I'm close to getting a shot off. Would you still consider that a ND? There was nothing negligent about what I did.
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No, I'd consider the first time an AD. After that an ND as you are negligent in using an unsafe weapon. I'd recommend modernizing. Take the firing pin out of your Remington and hang it on the wall if you want to keep it. At minimum see if a gunsmith can improve its function but I'd have a hard time trusting that weapon. AS for AD's I don't think they are inevitable. Nor, for that matter, do I consider acts of carelessness accidents. If your weapon fires on decocking there is something wrong with the weapon. Individual didn't say what he was shooting but I'll voice my opinion that buying cheap weaponry is an example of poor economic policy. I will further reiterate that some people just don't have their shit together...
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 5:53:20 AM EDT
The old 700 may have been part of a safety recall. The owner needs to check with Remington about it. Don't give up on a good 700. Give the lady another chance. Start the instruction with an empty gun. Load it as the next to last step, the last step being handing it back to the shooter and telling them to go ahead and shoot. All other instruction before loading the gun.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 7:29:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OldTiger: The old 700 may have been part of a safety recall. The owner needs to check with Remington about it. Don't give up on a good 700.
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Good advice. I do remember there being a recall on some of these as well. Should've been checked out a long time ago if continued use.
Give the lady another chance. Start the instruction with an empty gun. Load it as the next to last step, the last step being handing it back to the shooter and telling them to go ahead and shoot. All other instruction before loading the gun.
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Certainly an option but please don't bring her to the range when I'm there [:D] Consider an organized gun instruction cours with a professional if you're going to do so. Might be the best money they ever spend.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 7:47:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OldTiger: The old 700 may have been part of a safety recall. The owner needs to check with Remington about it. Don't give up on a good 700.
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I appreciate the info. At first my father and I figured it was our fault (the riffle has a hair trigger), we thought we must have had our finger on the trigger when we took off the safety (which we never do, but it was the simplest answer). Then the second time it went off on my Dad, I was standing next to him and we both witnessed his finger was outside the trigger guard (as it should be). That is when I checked out the recall. My specific serial # was not within the recall group. Still I was told by a representative at Remington (called their main office)that if you oil the bolt, some of it will drip into the area where the safety/trigger mechanism is and will make them stick together. That is why releasing the safety would occasionally fire the round. They suggested I keep that part clean and free from oil (Duh). It is a great riffle. Accurate as hell and loves cheap .270 ammo. I usually use it when hunting in blinds, so I simply don't chamber a round until I see a harvestable animal approaching. I've learned to work that bolt very quietly. As long as I follow the basic safety rules it shouldn't be a problem. I never trust safety's anyway.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 7:24:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By buck_nay_kid:
Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
If you have never had an AD then you just haven't been around or shot enough guns yet!
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bullshit
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I second that motion. Apparently US Army Rangers have not been around or shot enough guns. An AD or ND in Ranger School and you fail, no questions. One in Ranger Battalion, you get kicked out to a leg unit like the 82nd.
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And I 3rd it. You can't have an AD if you are trying not to,if you are not trying to [b]NOT[/b] an AD you are negligent. I have in fact had an AD and yes I was negligent. I let somebody look at my new CCW and after put the hammer down to fast with out looking to see if he had put a round in and bang! Was I a dumb ass? YES was I negligent? VERY Did I have to do this as part of my life of gun ownership? hell no,I could have gone just fine with out ever doing it. Learn from others before somebody gets shot.
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Buck-nay-kid how can you third it? You just said you had one,while Big bear and Rifleman2000,have never or will never have one! I've been shooting since 13 years old and in 44 years of gunhandling have had one, just said its not that uncommon and when you have shot that long it could happen to you also! When you buy and shoot a new semi-auto after checking it out you only put two rounds in the mag for just that reason,in case it has something wrong that can only be found out while shooting! These things happen,and could happen to you anytime the bolt slams forward! Bob [:D]
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