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Posted: 10/12/2002 4:15:53 AM EDT
Just a thought - not like they'd ever allow this, but could you imagine if even 200 citizen's got together, were "deputized" and then broke into 2-man teams to patrol the DC area, especially gas stations, looking for the "assassin". They'd have police radios and would report in if anything happened. They'd be told to basically do everything they could to spot, communicate, and follow the assassin, and only engage in gunfire if there was an emminent threat to life (theirs or others). An extra 200 sets of eyes, patrolling in unmarked cars (your own) would certainly increase the chanced of this bastard being caught. There aren't enough police to do this, and plus they stand out like sore thumbs.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 4:47:30 AM EDT
Virginia already has a program called "Neighborhood Watch". I have participated in it. They do give you a cell phone hardwired to a call in number. They don't allow weapons though. The entire Metro area is already on high alert, with most people already having cell phones, believe me if somebody sees something its going to get called in.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 4:16:01 PM EDT
Inevitably, one of those teams would end up trying to be heroes and either shooting another team or an innocent citizen. Out of 200 citizens at least 20 of them would be at very high risk for something going to crap, and eventually the opportunity would present itself.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 4:26:48 PM EDT
Why not tell everyone in the DC area with a video camera to point it out their window at the street? Then after he strikes again ask for the tapes in the immediate area of the shooting. This would provide a lot of useful and accurate information to the police. I wish the "officals" would get off their high horse of telling everyone that they are there to protect them and start telling the public that they need to start taking some responsibility for their neighborhood and security. This goes for all areas, not just DC.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 4:32:08 PM EDT
the concept of citizen/LEO teams, while a good idea in itself, would probably not work too well because LEOs really resent citizens pitching in to help except as tipsters. LEOs tend to cop an attitude toward citizens because they haven't been to the police academy. Never mind that the citizen has, perhaps, military trining or gunsite courses, etc. The citizen could even be better trained than the LEO, but he's still going to be resentful as hell. Many LEOs are NOT trained as well as they'd have you believe and they'd resent a trained citizen as a partner. Especially if they were better trained than the LEO. IE, the cops would do their best to make it NOT WORK. gfb
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:00:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:06:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By piccolo: Never mind that the citizen has, perhaps, military trining or gunsite courses, etc. The citizen could even be better trained than the LEO, but he's still going to be resentful as hell. gfb
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Right, That week long gunsite course will really help you as a criminal investigator. Even off duty LEOs are better off witnesses than hereos. Too many variables come into play.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:08:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Issues: 3) Perhaps the most important: [b]SNIPER BAIT[/b]. ... Talk about an argument for gun control waiting to happen!
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I guess they could wear level III or IV armor and duck and dodge around....
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:13:08 PM EDT
How do you know you haven't just deputized the Sniper?
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:28:58 PM EDT
A. we're talking counter-sniper here. Not criminal investigation and B. It's sad but true, police officers for the most part east of the Mississippi are not really trained very well in the use firearms. While it is a shame, it's true. also, as far as criminal investigation goes, a GOOD reported with a nose for news, of a scientist can often get to the bottom of things almost if not as well, as the average LEO. LEOs DO have the resources, though.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:30:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920: Right, That week long gunsite course will really help you as a criminal investigator.
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Who said anything about criminal investigations? What I've seen proposed here has been community defence, plain and simple.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:48:07 PM EDT
He wanted to deputize people and put them on the case. Home and Homeland defense is great. We need more everyday. But untrained people, citizens or LEOs can mess up a case pretty quick.... You really don't want to patrol parts of DC anyway.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 6:05:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2002 6:07:55 PM EDT by RebelGray]
Anyone know what kind of training you have to carry a shoulder-weapon in Israel? I am under the impression that anyone who did a two year stint in the military is eligable to open carry most IDF individual weapons after some paperwork, but most just choose a handgun as its less intrusive into daily life. Of course I could be wrong here. Edited to say- I'm of a mind that unarmed civil patrols might be better in this case, invest in level IIIA vests w/trauma plates instead of bringing your rifle along. Besides, seeing a bunch of armed, roving patrols might just egg this guy on to think of himself as some kind of sportsman hunting more dangerous game.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 6:14:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By piccolo: LEOs tend to cop an attitude gfb
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Pun intended???
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 6:26:15 PM EDT
Offering courses in observation would be useful. Even us dumb ol' Army Aviators were all given observation courses, way back when. By the time we finished flight school it was second nature. Communicating what you know is the key, so leave the guns at home, unless you have a CCW, and carry a camera, GPS and thermal imager. You can get lunch at a nearby gas station.(bwahahahahaha)
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 6:36:38 PM EDT
This reminds me of the Simpsons when a cat burglar was stealing stuff all over Springfield, and Homer started a vigilante group to stop him. Kent Brockman interviewed him. Kent: Mr. Simpson, how do you respond to the charges that petty vandalism such as graffiti is down eighty percent, while heavy sack-beatings are up a shocking nine hundred percent? Homer: Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of all people know that. Kent: I see. Well, what do you say to the accusation that your group has been causing more crimes than it's been preventing? Homer: [amused] Oh, Kent, I'd be lying if I said my men weren't committing crimes. Kent: [pause] Well, touche'.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 6:37:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2002 6:39:19 PM EDT by arjohnson]
They would never allow that, we are not capable or qualified in their eye's. I have seen many LEO's shoot and beleive me there are plenty of them that are terrible shots, I would rather myself be walking around with my AR15 {or actually my LTR}because I know if I were to encounter the sniper he would loose.[:D]
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 7:13:10 PM EDT
I was told to stay away...At the time it was a $300,000 Bounty now it's up to $500,000. First I am in no shape to go running after this guy if I see him. Second I would not be walking around with a Long Rifle of any kind in MD,VA or DC. I thought maybe we could get a AR15.com team to go and do it. Then split the money, But was told Only LEO and if retired have to be allowed to go and help. They say the money is not given by them, but by the courts or I think the state if he is caught. He must be tried and convicted. They don't tell you that over the TV or radio. I had a thread about it, and I was called , IM or E-mailed by many people to know if it was on. Give it another week, if he or she or them are not caught. I am going to try again and really explain I am not a YAHOO looking to gun this guy down or be a hero. I just want to try and make some money. I have a relative who is willing He is a Homicide Detective on NYPD, I have a PI who is very good. He gave me the idea and will most likely try to work something out. Then I have LOTS of you guys asking and I know some of you know what to do. I don't mean with just a gun and references will be checked if it pans out. If by chance we do catch this guy I would donate part of my reward to the families who have suffered through this ordeal. I truly know what they are going through. My prayers go out to them. WE COULD DO THIS. I also have a feeling this person has a radio or two he listens to PD and other Frequencies. He might be working with a spotter. Who knows they might take turns shooting the mark. Trust me if in a week this person isn't caught, I am going to start on the papers has to why we are not allowed to help get this guy. The real next move I feel is it will stop and start up in another state. Not related to anything they profiled. Watch this guy use the info against the LEO ,FBI SS,CIA. After all the last time was right across the street from a Police Barrack. SO keep in touch through IM or E-MAil and I will let you know what I find. I am not really able to do much with my Injuries still holding me back, But I have some ideas from the old school.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 1:02:10 AM EDT
Actually, this could be done by a group of concerned citizens without the approval of the police - just substitute cell phones for radios. Firearms are OK in VA, but not in MD or DC. No big deal, it’s going to have to be the police that takes on this guy anyway. The concerned citizens would simply call in the suspicious activity. (Admittedly, some of the DC and MD areas are high crime and you really would want a firearm when in them; as usual you can’t legally have a firearm when you need it most!) That said, it would make a lot more sense for the concerned citizens to work in conjunction with the police. Otherwise, the police are continually going to be jumping on the citizens as they slink about. Also, for those interested in the reward (which doesn’t include me), I’d think reporting suspicious activity and having it pan out would be all that’s needed. Incidentally, this brings up a really sore point with me. I live in the area and the last two shootings were in really obvious locations. IMHO, and admitting I may not know everything, [b]there is absolutely no excuse for there not having been at least observers, if not stake-out teams, at both locations[/b]. To a lesser degree, this can also be said about the school shooting at Bowie. If the NYPD had been running this investigation, I think the shooter would be in jail right now. Irretrievable opportunities have been missed; irreplaceable lives have been lost. Unless I learn some reason to feel differently, I’m going to be angry about this until the day I die!! Unfortunately, I suspect that after almost getting caught, the shooter may change his MO a bit. (Alternatively, he might try to show his boldness by returning to an area he already used - like Manassas). FWIW, let me add that I called the Montgomery County Tip Line a couple of days ago with a gratuitous suggestion (absolutely nothing to do with AR15.com!). I also asked if they needed volunteers (I’m retired LE). The individual I spoke to happened to be a retired Montgomery County PD Captain himself. He advised that it looked like the FBI might be taking over the investigation. He said the FBI had indicated that if they took over, they only wanted actively sworn officers working the case – no retirees. Lastly, let me dismiss the suggestion that non-LEO’s can do as good or as better a job as LEO’s. Not to offend anyone, but this is nonsense. If it were true, there would be no need to train LEO’s – since the job wouldn’t require training. Being a decent LEO involves far more than simply firearms training (which, ironically, may explain why LEO’s often don’t get as much firearms training as they should). Use of force, non-lethal weapons, traffic stops, pursuit driving, arrest techniques, rules of evidence, etc. – the list goes on and on and on!
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 3:31:19 AM EDT
Greywolf originally proposed that a group of citizens would basically patrol likely areas where the sniper may be and communicate to the police if they saw anything suspicious and then follow at a safe distance. No special training required and citizens are more than able to do the above. Cell phones in place of the walkies; just dial 911. Videocameras with every group would be a must. You would need something to turn over to the LEOs. There is nothing the police could do to stop anyone from doing this, unless the group became a huge problem. I have been thinking about grabbing a vid camera and driving around some of the areas where he has struck in Va (I can carry legally there, but not in MD). Being out of work, $500,000 looks pretty sweet. What the citizens would want to avoid doing is going into any of the crime scenes or harassing the police with stupid tips (There's a white van in front of me and the guys looked at me really weird!) or trying to detain someone they suspect. Observe, tape, report and stay out of the way.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 3:55:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sparky315: Inevitably, one of those teams would end up trying to be heroes and either shooting another team or an innocent citizen. Out of 200 citizens at least 20 of them would be at very high risk for something going to crap, and eventually the opportunity would present itself.
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Sounds like somebody has swallowed the govt. line "Hook, Line, and sinker", that "only the experts in govt. are qualified to keep you safe......"
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 4:02:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Issues: 1) The standard police frequency/frequencies could not be used for this. There would simply be too much radio traffic and it would disrupt routine operations and other emergencies. To handle an additonal frequency and the special rules laid out for the activities, an additional command post/incident command may need to be set up. Where is the experienced/trained personnel for this going to come from?
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If the people were allowed to have their Constitutionally protected Militias this would be a non-issue.
2) This would be the type of setup where one "help me" call will get every LEO within 200 miles responding with lights and siren to the scene. The civilians acting as guards would need a good amount of training to identify what poses the type of threat they are looking for, and not to use the radio unnecessarily.
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See above.
3) Perhaps the most important: [b]SNIPER BAIT[/b]. These volunteers will be the ones being picked off. You suddenly have a whole bunch of expenditure and a major amount of effort going into the project, and you find out you are sending out highly motivated people who are merely targets. Talk about an argument for gun control waiting to happen!
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There's plenty of "sniper bait" out there now, much of it wearing pretty uniforms. Safty and liberty have a price. If someone is worried about being a target, don't volunteer.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 4:06:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920:
Originally Posted By piccolo: Never mind that the citizen has, perhaps, military trining or gunsite courses, etc. The citizen could even be better trained than the LEO, but he's still going to be resentful as hell. gfb
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Right, That week long gunsite course will really help you as a criminal investigator.
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Right, the "professionals" have the solution...
Even off duty LEOs are better off witnesses than hereos. Too many variables come into play.
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Should read "Citizens are too stupid to protect the community in which they live and work." Typical atitude.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 4:08:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: How do you know you haven't just deputized the Sniper?
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How do you know the sniper isn't wearing a badge when he's working??
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 4:08:08 AM EDT
Protect oneself? THats what the police are for, isn't it? If everyone took it upon themselves to be their own protector, what would happen to all of the men and women who depend on a sheep like attitude of the general populace? What would then happen to the gun control agendas favored so heavily in these free fire zones? We would have liberal anarchy, hell, people might realize that they really don't need *all* of those government programs, then where would they be? Also, please remember, the police are highly trained in all aspects of counter sniper activity, they are professionals, and they will catch this guy when they can free up a bit of man power (from ticket writing), so give it a rest already.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 4:28:57 AM EDT
Hielo, , is that SARCASM I smell? :)
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 4:34:29 AM EDT
Back to the deputize part of this thread: Just grab yer horse,Winchester, bedroll and grub! We're gonna head 'em off at the pass! Truth is, we're waiting for this jerk to be caught.Waiting is tough. The Marines have a saying for this. Toughest job in the Corps:Marine wife. She's the one waiting. As far as what we can REALLY do, I see room for volenteerism here, and some of you guys really ain't gonna like it too much. Part of every LEOs life is day to day bullshit. Ya gotta wash the cruiser, maybe it's your turn to swamp out the break room. It's your day to run to the Deli to pick up lunch.Whatever. ALL OF THIS LITTLE,DOPEY STUFF HAS TO BE DONE!!! And all of it takes time and keeps LEOs off the streets. It's not glorious work, and some of it's downright disgusting, but it has to be done. Hosing out a cruier after some drunk pukes in it can be pretty nasty. BUT IT HAS TO BE DONE. I've seen a small town where sometimes a guy with nothing to do sits in the station and answers the phone and keeps an eye on the town drunk sleeping it off in the cell. Anything that keeps a guy off the streets and out of the pool halls and puts a LEO on the streets ind IN the pool halls is probably beneficial at this point. Seems like everyone wants to be the chef, but nobody wants to do the dishes. go ahead, flame me. my shoulders are broad.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 6:13:01 AM EDT
I like to cook for myself, thanks.
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