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Posted: 10/9/2002 8:01:34 PM EDT
My friend who is a police officer in a med size town here in new jersey just left my house ,he told me what happened last night and all I could do is sit there in disbelief. Two cops sitting in a van on an undercover surveillance in the center of town are attacked in an attempted robbery by no less then 10 mexicans. Two of the mexicans pulled knives and and one of the cops pulled his gun,the mexican closest still advanced and slashed at the officer with his knife,the second officer yelled "don't shoot him" ,the two cops both yelled they were cops and had the badges on chains clearly visible,a fight ensued and most of the mexicans ran off ,back up arrived and they arrested 5 out of the ten. I asked him why didn't they shoot and he has yet to get an answer. I asked my buddy if he thinks he would have fired and he looked at me with that look like "that's a dumb fucking question". I am perplexed as to why the cops didn't open up,if the mexicans had gotten hold of those two guns the officers were carrying they would have been killed no doubt.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:05:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:23:48 PM EDT
I found the story and the link. [url]http://www.app.com/app2001/story/0,21133,627074,00.html[/url] 5 charged in gang attack on 2 police Published in the Asbury Park Press 10/09/02 Long Branch undercover officers threatened with knives By SAMUEL P. NITZE STAFF WRITER LONG BRANCH -- Ten suspected gang members surrounded an undercover police vehicle and threatened officers with knives Monday night in a carjacking-turned-street fight in which police subdued five of the assailants as five others fled, authorities said. The assailants are believed to be Mexican nationals. The federal Immigration and Naturalization Service has ordered the five arrested men detained for interrogation and possible deportation, meaning they will be held even if they make bail, said Detective Lt. Alphonse Muolo. The five attackers arrested Monday were Agutin Espanha, 19, of New Brunswick; Omar Guitierez and Adolpho Barrios, both 20 and both of Morris Avenue, Long Branch; Fernando Sosa, 19, of Second Avenue, Long Branch; and a 17-year-old, also of Long Branch. All five were charged with carjacking, police said. The four men were taken to the Monmouth County Jail in Freehold Township; the juvenile was at the Youth Detention Center. Other charges against some of the men included attempted robbery, aggravated assault, possession of a controlled dangerous substance (crack cocaine), attempted theft of motor vehicle, resisting arrest, riot and possession of a weapon for unlawful purposes, police said. Bail ranges from $150,000 to $225,000, Muolo said. He gave the following account of the incident: Detective Raymond Chaparro Jr. and Officer Jeffrey Grippaldi were stopped at a traffic light at an undisclosed center-city location off Ocean Avenue when 10 men approached. The officers had been conducting surveillance in an unmarked vehicle. The men, unaware that they were dealing with police officers, asked for a cigarette as an excuse to approach, then opened the vehicle doors and tried to force their way in. Chaparro and Grippaldi each punched an assailant, knocking two of the men back from the vehicle. As the officers got out and continued to fight, some of the men brandished knives. When the officers drew their guns, the alleged gang members continued to menace them with their knives and a box cutter. "The men weren't backing down even though they were being ordered at gunpoint to get on the ground," Muolo said. "That's pretty hairy if you think about it." At some point, one officer managed to call for backup. The two "exercised extraordinary restraint in not discharging their weapons," Muolo said. "They had every right to shoot these guys." Grippaldi's shirt was slashed by one of the attackers, but he was not harmed, Muolo said. During the attack, the assailants sprayed a gang-related symbol, known as a tag, on the unmarked vehicle, police said. They are believed to be affiliated with the 18th Street Gang. Sgt. Jason Roebuck, Cpls. Michael Schulz and Raymon Chaparro Sr., and Officers Jeffrey Pilone, Christopher Hazel, Julio Delacruz, Jennifer Hernandez and Cesare Simonelli assisted with the arrests, Muolo said. The incident is still under investigation, he said.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:28:51 PM EDT
What the hell is happening to this country.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:39:27 PM EDT
That guy needs a career change. Pronto, before he gets another officer killed.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:42:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter69: What the hell is happening to this country.
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Its no longer ok to protect yourself. There is more value in a live perp than a live cop. Mainly because scumbag law firms will represent the illegal's families for 1983 suits. Look at the legal system if you doubt me, its designed to help the "underdog," which in many cases is the instigator of his own death. Hopefully they'll be dealt with in a mex prison.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:51:45 PM EDT
Probably because they didn't want to be accused of excessive use of force (or 'police brutality') by some of the Monday-morning quarterbacks on this site.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 9:13:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 9:24:41 PM EDT
We discussed here a few months back a Seattle police officer who did hesitate and was murdered IIRC.
Originally Posted By Balzac72: Hopefully they'll be dealt with in a mex prison.
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Would it work that way? I would think that they would be prosecuted and serve time here, to then be deported. If they were deported now I'm not sure Mexico would have any jurisdiction/authority to jail them... and with our miserably inadequate border control they would probably be back in NJ in a month (in time to illegally vote democrat in the election [;)]
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 3:38:22 AM EDT
The facts: 1) No cop was injured, despite the fact that "a fight ensued." 5) 5 perps were arrested. Sounds like the right decision was made. Last I checked, deadly force was only an option when in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. These two cops fought with these ten jackassed until helped arive and left with nary a scratch - simply a cut shirt. While they may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent dnager to a review board, my Monday morning quarterbacking tells me they did the right thing, legally AND morally. The police are not executioners. Adam
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:03:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: The facts: 1) No cop was injured, despite the fact that "a fight ensued." 5) 5 perps were arrested. Sounds like the right decision was made. Last I checked, deadly force was only an option when in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. These two cops fought with these ten jackassed until helped arive and left with nary a scratch - simply a cut shirt. While they may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent dnager to a review board, my Monday morning quarterbacking tells me they did the right thing, legally AND morally. The police are not executioners. Adam
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Ya, but think of the money saved by not having to provide room & board and prosecution if they just would have popped 'em. [;)]
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:09:54 AM EDT
In general, I would have no (moral) problem shooting someone with a knife (before they got close enough to use it). If somebody presents a lethal threat, they have surrendered all rights to life. It does seem, however, that the gang members couldn't have been too serious about hurting the cops. 10 men with knives would destroy 2 who refused to shoot. None of us sitting around here will ever know what the situation was really like, but it does seem like the officers in question displayed commendable restraint. They may very well have sensed that the danger was not great enough to warrant lethal force.
Originally Posted By Adam_White: The facts: 1) No cop was injured, despite the fact that "a fight ensued." 5) 5 perps were arrested. Sounds like the right decision was made. Last I checked, deadly force was only an option when in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. These two cops fought with these ten jackassed until helped arive and left with nary a scratch - simply a cut shirt. While they may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent dnager to a review board, my Monday morning quarterbacking tells me they did the right thing, legally AND morally. The police are not executioners.
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Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:12:06 AM EDT
it comes down to "protect and serve" sometimes that means you get cut. also you develop a feel for hostility and motivation of your targets. it a group of targets hesitate or seem unsure it's wise not start slaughtering them.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:12:22 AM EDT
BANG BANG BANG I don't think I would have heard the other officer yell "don't shoot" over the gun fire.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:17:05 AM EDT
Another example of "Multi-Culturalism". You see, wielding a knife isn't a crime if you're hispanic, it's an "expression" of hispanic culture. You just don't understand do you? You should be thankful that you were "exposed" to hispanic culture. Don't you feel more "worldly"? Hang on, it's just going to get worse. Rule #1 in a knife fight: Bring a gun. Rule #2 in a knife fight: Shoot the gun.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:45:16 AM EDT
I don't know about the rest of you, but if I were in that situation and ten people were coming at me with knives, I think they wouldn't be putting many of them in jail. Morgue maybe, but not jail.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:51:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TUMOR: Another example of "Multi-Culturalism". You see, wielding a knife isn't a crime if you're hispanic, it's an "expression" of hispanic culture. You just don't understand do you? You should be thankful that you were "exposed" to hispanic culture. Don't you feel more "worldly"? Hang on, it's just going to get worse. Rule #1 in a knife fight: Bring a gun. Rule #2 in a knife fight: Shoot the gun.
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That statement was damn near one of the most ignorant I have heard in some time. I mean, it would have been one hting if you had a problem with Mexican nationals (which alone is a pretty broad group) and wanted to vent, but instead you just lump all hispanics together in your ridiculous vitriol. Adam
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 5:06:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 5:17:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2002 5:18:47 AM EDT by bountyhunter]
Originally Posted By Aimless: In some departments I have heard that very often a shooting, justified or not, has certain effects on your career i.e. you may be looking at a desk job even if the shoot was good & justified. Still I can't imagine not firing under those circumstances, that's just bizarre.
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Aimless, your 100 percent right, although, the departments would never come out and say it is like that, for reasons of possible future litigation, may are like that. Been there done that. It does not matter what kind of job evals you get from that point on, your tainted goods as far as they perceive you.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 5:22:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: you just lump all hispanics together
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So? How many times have read or heard the word "hispanic" when it wasn't just an euphemism for mexican? And come to think of it, how many times have you heard the terms "illegal alien" or "undocumented migrant" and you didn't think of mexicans first and only?
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 5:30:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By Adam_White: you just lump all hispanics together
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So? How many times have read or heard the word "hispanic" when it wasn't just an euphemism for mexican?
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Uhhh - many times. Maybe that's because I grew up around Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Hondurans, etc. and people of such descent.
And come to think of it, how many times have you heard the terms "illegal alien" or "undocumented migrant" and you didn't think of mexicans first and only?
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Very rarely - in the US, I will admit that. However, "undocumented migrant" IS a euphemism, "hispanic" is a "real" term - and one that likely refers to a significant number of people on this very board.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 9:42:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: The facts: 1) No cop was injured, despite the fact that "a fight ensued." 5) 5 perps were arrested. Sounds like the right decision was made. Last I checked, deadly force was only an option when in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. These two cops fought with these ten jackassed until helped arive and left with nary a scratch - simply a cut shirt. While they may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent dnager to a review board, my Monday morning quarterbacking tells me they did the right thing, legally AND morally. The police are not executioners. Adam
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"may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent danger"? You're an ass.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 10:12:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: The facts: 1) No cop was injured, despite the fact that "a fight ensued." 5) 5 perps were arrested. Sounds like the right decision was made. Last I checked, deadly force was only an option when in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. These two cops fought with these ten jackassed until helped arive and left with nary a scratch - simply a cut shirt. While they may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent dnager to a review board, my Monday morning quarterbacking tells me they did the right thing, legally AND morally. The police are not executioners. Adam
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[b]EXCELLENT POINT![/b] I also believe that these police officers should be charged with a racial hatred offense. NJ Title 2C:6969 states: "Hindering illegal Mexicans or African Americans involved in the act of committing Robbery or Attempted Murder is a crime of the 1st. Degree" These heavy handed police officers should be fired and indicted ASAP! I still can't believe that they had the nerve to draw their firearms!! This is such a racially biased state. It's a good thing that "Torch" Torricelli got the confederate flag removed from the NJ State Flag ! Now I can live here in peace knowing that we all can "just get along"... -------------------------------- Funny though... Asbury Park USED to be a great place. My folks used to take us there all the time when I was a kid and my grandparents used to take my dad there when he was a little kid. Now it is just a black ghetto. All burned out and crime ridden. I LOVE NJ!!!!! The "Garden" State [:D]
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 3:07:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 117:
Originally Posted By Adam_White: The facts: 1) No cop was injured, despite the fact that "a fight ensued." 5) 5 perps were arrested. Sounds like the right decision was made. Last I checked, deadly force was only an option when in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death. These two cops fought with these ten jackassed until helped arive and left with nary a scratch - simply a cut shirt. While they may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent dnager to a review board, my Monday morning quarterbacking tells me they did the right thing, legally AND morally. The police are not executioners. Adam
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"may have been able to articulate a sense of imminent danger"? You're an ass.
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How eloquent. You must be some "I watch too much TV" cowboy who thinks he can fire on and stop 10 men armed with knives before they can get to him. None of us were there, The officers on the scene made a decision - and it was obviously, in retrospect, the right one. Quite frankly, I very well may have fired in that situation - with the end result potentially being three or five or six dead thugs and two dead officers (myself included). The fact that the officers on the scen obviously read the crowd accurately, and acted appropriately, is obvious with the benefit of hindsight. Yet many of you still choose to second guess the officer on the scene, soyinh things like, "That guy needs a career change." As ikor made a reference to, A LOT of damge can be done with a knife in 5-10 seconds. A knife wielding attacker can also close distance very quickly. Try shooting even 5 paper targets, in areas that have high probability of immediate stoppage, within that time period. None of us were there. I am not the one second guessing their actions. I am the one using similarly amazing restraint and staying within the board code, however. This is a good thread to separate the real people from the wannabe Rambos, that's for sure.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 3:28:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2002 3:30:38 PM EDT by Hmanjr]
Originally Posted By shooter69: What the hell is happening to this country.
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Criminals know their chances of getting caught and punished are slim.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 3:38:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2002 3:50:05 PM EDT by Hmanjr]
edited for clarity. It's a good thing that they didn't shoot. Can you imagine the media frenzy following such an event. I imagine the headlines would read something along the lines of "White supremist cops on hate filled killing spree!" "Teenage boys gunned down in their prime!" "Choir boys assasinated on way to church!" "Them boys were good boys, they didn't have to be gunned down like dogs on the street." "They lined them up and shot them down!" Those two officers deserve a round of drinks for living through that encounter.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 4:02:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2002 4:06:23 PM EDT by Only_Hits_Count]
Originally Posted By Adam_White: Very rarely - in the US, I will admit that. However, "undocumented migrant" IS a euphemism, hispanic" is a "real" term -
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You're confused. The word "Hispanic" is a word made up by white boys. Ever meet anyone from "Hispanola" or "Hispanica"?
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 5:45:02 PM EDT
Hispanic seems to be a word that is now used to refer to people from Spanish (and portuguese) speaking countries. There is a "Hispania" BTW, it's what Spain used to be called several thousand years ago. And if you can tell me where Baetica, Lusitania, and Tarraconensis were, we'll be all set!
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 6:06:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: You must be some "I watch too much TV" cowboy who thinks he can fire on and stop 10 men armed with knives before they can get to him. None of us were there, The officers on the scene made a decision - and it was obviously, in retrospect, the right one.
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The officers knew that if they shot the perps, the very LEAST they could expect is to spend a year every night after work in "Sensitivity" Training classes. This alone is enough to deter anyone.....
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 6:13:26 PM EDT
Many police will take extreme risks in just such situations because the use of force is so stacked against you (This applies to CHL holders as well.) Even on a justified shoot the officer and family are going to be dragged thru hell, (media induced mostly) and the officer's legal bills will probably be more than 10 years salary. It is quite possible it'll destroy the family. "Daddy killed someone" does not sit well with wives and kids. Add to this some departments will let an officer, no matter how justified, twist in the wind, and you start to get a mindset linked to some pretty major risk taking. I won't second guess these officers. I had enough of that in my case. I'm just glad the risk taking paid off in their situation.
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