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Posted: 10/7/2002 1:59:06 PM EDT
and you think they're useless, I'd love to have something like that to experiment on. If any of y'all want to give/trade/sell for a reasonable price to me, I'd be glad to take them off your hands. Ryan
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 2:44:14 PM EDT
You're kidding right..? SW5's are awesome... Not even a Leatherman compares, when seeking the perfect multi-tool! Whether you are changing tires, shoveling snow, or just having a backyard BBQ, the SW5 does it all. SW5 -- It shakes, bakes rakes and breaks!
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 2:48:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2002 2:56:50 PM EDT by Deliverator]
OK, I've heard of a Leatherman. What is an SW5? edited to say: Nevermind.
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 3:12:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 10:15:18 PM EDT
Well, I have yet to hear a dollar amount. Seriously guys, if they arnt working as rifles for you I'll at least give you some dough to ease your losses. Sell 'em to me and I'll make them work. At any rate they're better than spending that kind of cash on some Jap airsoft right?
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 10:59:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By antiUSSA: You're kidding right..? SW5's are awesome... Not even a Leatherman compares, when seeking the perfect multi-tool! Whether you are changing tires, shoveling snow, or just having a backyard BBQ, the SW5 does it all. SW5 -- It shakes, bakes rakes and breaks!
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...and if you call this toll-free number RIGHT NOW, we'll include a detachable bayo lug AND a bayo for skewering!!! A $50 value FREE!! We'll also include a bonus item. A HIGH POWERED scope, and I MEAN HIGH POWERED!!! With this scope, you will have the ability to see chronic wasting disease in your meat! Okay, I feel generous today. You're not gonna pay $1100... NOT $800... NOT EVEN $450!!! If you call this toll-free number RIGHT NOW, you will only have FOUR payments of $99.99!!!! Don't miss out on this super deal!!! [;D] Okay, but seriously... THE LOWER IS MADE OUT OF PLASTIC! I don't know how you're gonna make any improvements. Believe us, it's not born to be a firearm...it has found its true calling as the ultimate multi-tool!!!
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 11:36:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2002 11:40:59 PM EDT by RebelGray]
$400? Thats a joke right? If not I'll even overnight the money order. Look, I had a weapon called a Commando MkIII, it was a .45-cal Thompson M1A1 replica, and I shot the $#!T out of that gun. It worked as smoothly and evenly as my Ruger 10/22, and when it finaly broke I fixed it with cheap hardware store stuff and two-ton epoxy, and then shot the crap out of it some more. I had the gun since I was 14 and probably put $1000 worth of cheap .45ACP through that thing by the time I sold it last year. I got 4x what I paid for it, and got more than my moneys worth out of it. When it first came out in the 70s people complained about it and the company that made it to high hell. It wannt a REAL Thompson, it had a PLASTIC lower. They sold for like $175 brand new back then. Now they're paying $550 to get them back WHEN they can find them. So what if its a little rough? Up until a few years ago I thought paying over $250 for a rifle or pistol was OUTRAGEOUS but I still had a pretty good collection and shot a lot. Some of you guys pooh-pooh it 'cause it aint an H&K, because it doesnt work out of box. Sure, if you have the money to complain, why not? I dont, and I have more than enough experience with making do. One man's trash is another man's treasure, I'll GLADLY take it off your hands if you dont like it. So long as its whole and the parts arnt welded on backwards, fork it over, here's my money. Edited to say: I think most of you guys just enjoy trashing things. If its realy that bad you would have jumped to sell it to me...so far all I have is a bunch of comedians.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 9:33:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 9:44:11 AM EDT
Changing tires....hmmmmmmmmm...I've been using it as a garden sprinkler. Just run the hose through the chamber and voila'! Only problem is, it does'nt shoot the water straight. [:D] [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 10:00:45 AM EDT
The SW-5 saga was a perfect example of how a few individuals who pretend to be many different individuals can raise one hell of a stink on the Internet. Much of the hullabaloo was caused by just one or two guys who created multiple user accounts on sites like hk91.com and this site and had a great time sticking it to Toad. Not that the guy didn't deserve it. I do have to say this though: The SW-5 I have is very nice and with the red dot sight or a scope mounted, I can take down bowling pins at 200 yards all day long. Yes, 200 yards. That's no bs. I post standard B-27 targets at 25 and 50 yards and cut the center mass out of them. I can see why the mp5 is so popular, it is a devastating weapon at close range. Double and triple-taps are so easy. You can run through three or four mags in no time at all. The SW-5 may be a cheap knock-off, but for the money, it can't be beat. This rifle has never had misfeeding problems, ever. I recently had a paddle release installed, just for fun. I suppose if I had it over again I'd get the RRA upper in 9mm or 45 and go the AR route. But now that I have the SW, I won't be selling it, there's no reason to.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 10:08:32 AM EDT
The SW5 does have a stow-away compartment in the stock that holds one fabulous mil-spec, HIGHLY tactical SHTF plastic toothpick. So when your done gobbling the kabobs that you scewered on to the barrel, you can grumble "Mmmmmmmmm...good!!!!" while plucking chunks of delicious chicken from between your gapped teeth. Innovative? You bet your ass it is.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 10:24:01 AM EDT
I've got another $400 to offer anyone who whines about their SW5 all day to hand their troubles to me. I suspect there aren't any real owners willing to part with it at a price significantly lower than retail.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 11:31:13 AM EDT
Hell with that, I'll offer $800 for anyone that wants to part with their SW5. Thats close to what they go for in SGN if I'm not mistaken. Like I said, I dont think these people who like to badmouth the rifle live in reality. $800, here for the taking, if the gun is realy such a POS, $800 HAS to be better than owning such an affront, hell, you can buy a decent AR for that. Drop me a line at my posted e-mail address or at panzergrenider@yahoo.com. I'll gladly take that thing off your hands. Ryan
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:05:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:27:28 PM EDT
Actually the current stamped steel monstrocities dealer at over $1000. Anyone unfortunate enough to buy a earlier version paid around $1500 for it.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:38:38 PM EDT
AUG- $1050, currently, which is $250 different than from what I'm offering. If they hate the gun so much then that realy aught not make a difference. Besides, its used. If its that big a deal I'll throw in my NIB SAR2 to sweeten it up. I still see no one willing to take me on my offer now, do I?
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:44:58 PM EDT
Dude now you're getting nuts :p For a grand+ you'll get a brand new stamped-receiver SW5. Don't spend $800 on the previous-gen receiver SW.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:46:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2002 12:52:21 PM EDT by RebelGray]
Sesat- Best any dealer around here will do is $1500 on the damned things. Even the plastic lowers are going for that kind of dough. What can I say? Edited to say: Part of the reason I'm offering this is because I know none of these mugs has/is willing to part with their SW5. Its easy to bash on something without any real experience with it. If any of these guys actually had one and hated it that much I'm sure that my $800 offer would have gotten me a few e-mails.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:46:40 PM EDT
I don't own one for obvious reasons... I do however grab the nearest one when a tire needs changed, a latrine needs dug, or lunch needs cooked! [:D]
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:55:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RebelGray: Part of the reason I'm offering this is because I know none of these mugs has/is willing to part with their SW5. Its easy to bash on something without any real experience with it. If any of these guys actually had one and hated it that much I'm sure that my $800 offer would have gotten me a few e-mails.
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Originally Posted By RebelGray: I still see no one willing to take me on my offer now, do I?
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Maybe no one on this board was stupid enough to purchase one... ever consider that?
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 12:55:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By antiUSSA: I do however grab the nearest one when a latrine needs dug, or lunch needs cooked! [:D]
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Please remind me not to have any food if antiUSSA is cooking.[;)]
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 1:30:10 PM EDT
vicg- Thank you for illustrating my argument that some people like to trash things in which they have no first hand experience. I'd counter to say maybe some people who think their smart are actually just the 'sheeple' they claim to detest but revert to following the crowd when its easier to just trash something than take an objective, logical look at it. I hate to say but SW is doing pretty well these days. As a matter of fact in comparison to another famous fake-maker, Interordnance, they too have jerks at the customer service helm and have had many problems with QC on their indigenous product line as well. In fact they keep themselves afloat by selling other peoples rifles, and quite often have to pull their own lines when they fail. At least SW is keeping itself afloat by its own means. As for the owner of SW being a jerk, so maybe he is. So are a lot of people on here. For every ten intellegent, friendly shooters I meet, I always meet someone who thinks himself God's special gift to the world of shooting. Blessed with the ability to declair who and what is good and bad. Ryan
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 2:47:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2002 2:50:36 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Here's how well special weapons is doing. They began with 13 distributors who were required to purchase every shipment of SW weapons sent to them regardless of configurations as a term of their distributorship. This meant that even though Dist. 1 needs 4 SW5FS models Todd would send 25 SW45PDW and Dist. 1 would have to accept the COD purchase. Eventually Todd burned each and every one of them. They are now down to two entities that distribute their products. Tactical Weapons training Academy aka Todds Wife "Wendy" who are the ONLY distributor of Special Weapons firearms and Top Notch Accessories aka Todds Brother "Wade" who sell Special Weapons parts. They are doing so well that they actually make a worse gun than their previous cast receiver guns. They cut corners everywhere and the current guns are junk. Todd also offers them at "dealer price direct" since no dealer could move them at any retail price. If you really want one call Todds Wife. I know she is very busy training the Navy SEALs and British SAS at their "Academy" but she will put you on a list. Standard turn around is 8-10 weeks. They do rifles in lots of 10 so they have to wait until they have 10 pending orders to do a run. 10 guns every two months is quite the production, they must really be doing well. Also, it is possible to have first hand knowledge of a firearm you don't own. Because of the various warnings, many people chose to rent or shoot a buddies SW5 before purchase. One range day with this jam o matic is all most poeple need to figure out their 1,000 is better spent on a AR15. I have first hand knowledge of several firearms I don't own personally.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 2:49:43 PM EDT
Sermon over yet?
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 5:17:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RebelGray: vicg- Thank you for illustrating my argument that some people like to trash things in which they have no first hand experience.
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First hand experience is needed for [b]YOU[/b] to learn? That's a shame. I try to learn from my peers in order to avoid making the same mistakes others that have gone before me may have made.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:35:44 AM EDT
C'mon be nice to Rebel Grey. He just wanted one of them cool MP5 looking guns to put next to his SKS.[:D]
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 8:48:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2002 8:51:03 AM EDT by trickshot]
I guess everyone just ignored my post detailing first hand experience, eh? Jam-o-matic? WTF? If a gun jams a lot, you FIX IT, you don't sit there and bitch and moan about it. Mine has never had a single stoppage. Not one single stoppage. EVER! If I had it to do over again I probably would not have traded for the thing, but I was very unhappy with the sear-block, large-pin Colt AR that I got rid of in the process. I would never buy a $4500+ HK94 and the experience has been worth it and the thing shoots damn well. H&Ks are stamped sheet metal rifles (well, mine is cast stainless) and are meant to be used and thrown away. It is only us gun nuts who seem to cherish government throwaway junk like it was worth more than gold and develop a cult following for certain types. It's sure fun to bash Toad Bailey though. What a wingnut he is! Yet none of you have the balls to lay it on the line like he did and actually go into the firearms biz in this day and age where the legal barriers to entry are so severe. So bitch and complain all you want, but realize that it is pretty much a miracle that there is even a gun industry left in the USA, however bad it may be.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 9:44:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: I guess everyone just ignored my post detailing first hand experience, eh? Jam-o-matic? WTF? If a gun jams a lot, you FIX IT, you don't sit there and bitch and moan about it. Mine has never had a single stoppage. Not one single stoppage. EVER! If I had it to do over again I probably would not have traded for the thing, but I was very unhappy with the sear-block, large-pin Colt AR that I got rid of in the process. I would never buy a $4500+ HK94 and the experience has been worth it and the thing shoots damn well. H&Ks are stamped sheet metal rifles (well, mine is cast stainless) and are meant to be used and thrown away. It is only us gun nuts who seem to cherish government throwaway junk like it was worth more than gold and develop a cult following for certain types. It's sure fun to bash Toad Bailey though. What a wingnut he is! Yet none of you have the balls to lay it on the line like he did and actually go into the firearms biz in this day and age where the legal barriers to entry are so severe. So bitch and complain all you want, but realize that it is pretty much a miracle that there is even a gun industry left in the USA, however bad it may be.
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So you're ok with buying a $1500 9mm clone that has a spotty reputation, from a guy that has shown himself to be an arrogant asshole instead of buying a $1000 IMI built Uzi that's built like a tank? You got lucky. Yours works. There are 10 horror stories to every one like yours. And about balls, I'm sure many others have entertained the idea of manufacturing firearms but were smart emough to realize they didn't have the necessary expertise... (too bad SW thought they did!!!) It doesn't take any more balls to build guns than it does to start any other business... All IMHO, of course...
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 10:44:51 AM EDT
All that I can say is this from my personal experience. My SW5 has been a very functional weapon from day one. Have I had malfunctions, YES the typical ones that are attributed to ANY weapon and ammunition. I make the following statement with 23 years experience as a hunter, soldier, and a firearm enthusiast "Firearms of any type or manufacture are machines and machines will break or malfunction this is a given!" If they were all perfect then why do we practice clearing malfunctions and doing function checks on our weapons? I am becoming very tired of reading on "ALL" of the boards that any one weapon is the best of the best and nothing ever happens to it. If that were the case then we would all carry the same make and version of weapon. But we don't and that is human nature. I do agree that some companies have better customer satisfaction than others. And that is beyond the control of the customer in some cases. In the end I'm saying keep things in perspective, don't bash someone else's weapon or personal opinion on something. Give your two cents worth to help or shed light on something and if the other person disagrees so be it. That what makes this country great.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 10:54:35 AM EDT
I once knew a guy who had a Lorcin that worked.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 10:58:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I once knew a guy who had a Lorcin that worked.
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I heard stories about him... I thought it was all a myth...
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 11:57:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 12:06:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: I have a SW3 that has gone well over 1K rounds without a single malfunction. Oh well. I guess mine is the exception rather than the rule. [rolleyes]
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Yes, but he only built 10 of them! [}:D]
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 12:36:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: Regarding the SW5, I've seen one series of pictures posted on another board several years ago pointing out the flaws. That was a very early manufacture. The later ones were better. I sincerely doubt only one out of ten works.
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BigBear, I offer Exhibit A: [url]http://www.full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001000#000000[/url] That was end of June THIS year. This is the current state of the art SW. Just this month the same dealer got a SW5FS (supposedly the best made from SW) with the plastic lower and believe it or not, it looked even worse. I have YET to see a unmodified SW weapons (any variant) work right out of the box. And I see TONS of them. Usually goes like this, "I got this HK that don't work, can you take a look at it?" "Is it a Special Weapons?" "Yeah thats it." "It's not a HK, quit saying it's a HK." So based on MY experience I don't believe 1 in 10 works either, I haven't seen it yet.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 12:51:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I once knew a guy who had a Lorcin that worked.
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Definitely an urban legend. I have a friend in Henderson Neveda who bought an SW5 about year and a half ago (against my advice). He wanted an MP5. Couldn't afford an MP5. Found the SW guns and thought $1350, what a deal! Well he invited me to try it with him when he got it. POS jammed about once every 3 or 4 rounds. Tried to talk to Todd about it. Was told he was a dumbass who didn't know how to properly use a sub-machine gun. He thought he made out like a bandit when someone was willing to take it off his hands for $400. No first hand experience? Tried that POS myself. Even a Mac-10 would be a better gun.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:03:26 PM EDT
Ok. First off I didnt ask for anyone's opinion on the SW series. I already knew what they were, and what I'd get. Second off, in the case of guns, I find it VERY USEFUL to have first hand experience in matters such as who makes crap and who doesnt. I was given the same line of BS from a VERY angry forum full of people a few years back about the S&W Sigma. I've bought three since then, a .40, a 9mm and a .380 and I've never had a single problem with them. They've all ben wonderful guns that were handy, reliable, and accurate. I have two posts of people on here who LOVE their SW5s, and a bunch of posts from some people who "read somewhere, or were told by a friend about another friend...." about them, but DONT ACTUALLY own them, and NEVER HAVE. Finaly, there are enough people who read these messages who DO buy guns like Tec-9s and other so-called 'POS' toys and then want to get rid of them. Saying that there arnt people that are stupid enough to purchase an SW5 on this board is the sort of emotional crap responce I'd expect from an anti. How the hell does anyone know for sure what kind of people read these messages? Furthermore, what concern is it of yours what the hell kind of gun I want to buy? Who are you? Diane Feinswine? My offer still stands, $800 for ANYONE's SW5. Ryan
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:07:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RebelGray: Who are you? Diane Feinswine?
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Who are you? Todd's pimp?
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:11:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2002 1:13:56 PM EDT by RebelGray]
AntiUSSA? WTF? Are you Eugene Stoner's? I asked about buying an unpopular gun off of a bunch of people who OBVIOUSLY hate them and KNOW lots of folks who HATE theirs. Why does this suddenly make me some huge supporter of the mfr? If you go out and buy an AK, are you suddenly a commie bastard? I still have yet to see where I asked ANYONE of their opinion on SW5s.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:17:36 PM EDT
Chill out... We posted some funny pics, and slammed on crappy guns, BFD!
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:19:28 PM EDT
Rebel Grey, looks like your gonna have to pony up $1,179.00 for a NEW one. I'm sure it will work. This is only a few hundered more than the $800 you offered. [url]http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=5675698[/url] A word of caution though, find out when it was made. The one year warranty is from date of manufacture, NOT date of purchase. Which means if it has been in inventory for 10 months, it has a 2 month warranty left. One of those "Todd" things.[:D] Given your faith in the weapon, it is clearly worth the price.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:22:00 PM EDT
SA -- You are an evil man, pointing another in the direction of those things. Shame on you... Your man card should be revoked!
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:23:06 PM EDT
So what? I wasnt asking about the pictures nor was I complaining. I saw a bunch of guys who, I MISTAKENLY thought, had what they percieved as trash on their hands and I was offering to do them a favour by PAYING THEM to take it off their hands. I didnt come on to your topic and start blasting you guys for taking the pics, why did you come on to my topic and start trashing me for offering money for one? I only have been responding to peoples posts, not attacking them on my own.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:27:52 PM EDT
AUG- Thanks but I've already talked to Todd a couple of times on the phone over the past two days and he offered me a new one for a grand even including shipping to my local FFL. They'll charge me 15% on top of that because its a new gun. I wanted to buy a used one for a couple of reasons- one, I was hoping I could get it cheaper that way and take it off someone's hands who was anxious to rid themselves of it. two, with winter setting in I need a project gun to keep me busy and I'd love to have an MP5 look a like for shits and giggles. I already have a couple of single-shot Airsofts, but I'd rathar pony up the extra $500 for something that might possibly function as an actual firearm instead of lob pellets around the room. The five VZ-61 Skorpion airsofts I have do that well enough. Regards, Ryan
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:31:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RebelGray: So what? I wasnt asking about the pictures nor was I complaining. I saw a bunch of guys who, I MISTAKENLY thought, had what they percieved as trash on their hands and I was offering to do them a favour by PAYING THEM to take it off their hands. I didnt come on to your topic and start blasting you guys for taking the pics, why did you come on to my topic and start trashing me for offering money for one? I only have been responding to peoples posts, not attacking them on my own.
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RG, no one was offering their guns for sale. What we were offering is hard learned experience. Most of us unloaded those POS long ago. As a result of our misfortune we feel compelled to warn our freinds and fellow AR15 members of "our" expereinces with the gun and company. You have been warned. You have been shown where to get one. The next step is up to you. Or if you just can't pull together the $1,179.00 go the the Equipment Exchange and post "WTB Special Weapons SW5." Another great source is [url]http://boards.hkpro.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi[/url] It is loaded with SW5 owners who operate under the misconception that they own a HK rifle. You can ID them by looking for post like: "Why won't my rifle work?" "HK94 (MP5) Failure to Feed Problems" "Guns jams every 3rd round" and so on. Offer to buy theirs and take it off their hands. Many are probably for sale on their board right now.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:37:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: RG, no one was offering their guns for sale. [red]What we were offering is hard learned experience. Most of us unloaded those POS long ago.[/red] [red]As a result of our misfortune we feel compelled to warn our freinds and fellow AR15 members of "our" expereinces with the gun and company.[/red] [red]You have been warned.[/red] You have been shown where to get one. The next step is up to you. Or if you just can't pull together the $1,179.00 go the the Equipment Exchange and post "WTB Special Weapons SW5."
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[blue]Man Card re-issued![/blue]
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 2:01:30 PM EDT
Well, honestly thank you AUG. I live and breath guns to the exclusion of nearly anything else, shooting has got me my job, my Guard enlistment, my home and my fiancee. If I didnt want to buy guns and the associated minutia I probably wouldnt be so compelled to work as I do. That said I've been well aware of the SW reputation and been listening to people slam these guns for a year now, as well as others praise them as functional and a good deal in comparison to $3-5,000 H&Ks. I will NEVER put $5,000 down on a gun like the semi-auto Mp5 carbines unless its on someone elses tab. If I can have one that can be made to work for around a grand, I'll take my chances. I've bought a lot of iffy guns in the eleven years I've been at this hard-core and 75% of the time I can turn them around. And I mean guns that you'd classify as not fit to be wall-hangers. I also have a good source of 'new shooters' who are more pig-headed then I am about guns they want and I would have no problem getting more than MSRP for a used SW gun should it not turn out to be what I could use. No tricks, no foolin on my part either. Will post on EE as suggested. Thanks again, R.G.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 2:44:55 PM EDT
Rebel. If you want to play around with one why not just buy the kit and reciever from FAC and build it yourself. Or get a smith to do it for you. Howevewr most HK smiths will NOT touch one since the guns sren't built to spec. Jason at Investment Grade Firearms will put it together though and ,from what everyone tells me, it will work right the first time. And the best part.......you don't have to deal with Todd. Because of other dealings I had with Mr Baily I never did order a SW5. I got an uzi instead. I ran right,right outa da box heh heh heh.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 3:00:37 PM EDT
Hey BRM, some questions for you on that- What are the kits going for? Where I live I've had trouble getting people to send MG parts in state, so I'm not sure if thats an option. FAC carries Mp5 recievers? This is news to me but I guess I aught to check it out. Any prices? Regards, Ryan
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 3:02:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: It's sure fun to bash Toad Bailey though. What a wingnut he is! Yet none of you have the balls to lay it on the line like he did and actually go into the firearms biz in this day and age where the legal barriers to entry are so severe. So bitch and complain all you want, but realize that it is pretty much a miracle that there is even a gun industry left in the USA, however bad it may be.
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I agree to some extent with what you've said...but let me give you an example that I think should be the yardstick all other similar firearms makers should be measured by. DSArms. Now here's a company that decided to produce homegrown FAL's.....and like Todd Baily, against all political odds. Both get credit for that....but that's the only similarity. DSArms has succeeded in not only making American made versions of the venerated battle rifle, the FAL, but has raised the bar for these rifles in workmanship, quality and materials through out the entire FAL world. DSArms rifles are arguably the finest FAL's ever made. Period. Yeah, there's some great ones out there, the Austrian STG-58's, the FN FAL's & the Israeli FAL's are great guns too. However, one can easily argue that the modern virtues DSArms has applied to their philosophy and production techniques has made them the maker of the worlds best FAL's. You hear over and over how FN made the best FAL's, but that is simply not the case. The Austrian STG's were a superior weapon, and most of DSA's tooling came straight from the factories that made the STG's in Austria. Since aquiring the tooling, DSA has advanced production standards, introduced superior materials and devoted a premium to hands-on craftsmanship. They didn't just want to satisfy the looks of the weapon, they wanted to make the finest FAL in the world, and in my opinion, have succeeded. Special Weapons charges huge prices for weapons that, from many, many accounts, are unreliable, don't function properly and mostly serve to satisfy the eyes, and not the bullets. Yeah, some have SW's that work well. As far as I'm concerned you got lucky, and getting lucky after paying $1,500.00 for an HK knock-off is absurd. Good for you though, enjoy the guns.....really. I'm truly proud of what DSA has done for American firearms, they have created a world class version of one of the most significant battle rifles the world has ever seen....and have done it in a very hostile political climate. There guns are top notch and the people who run DSArms are very knowlegable, friendly and helpful. Sure Todd Baily has a client base, but his weapons don't appeal to me, for the same but opposite reasons DSA's do appeal to me. [URL]WWW.DSARMS.COM[/URL]
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 3:11:23 PM EDT
Try to compare the workmanship in this to anything from S.W..... [img]www.dsarms.com/images/sa58sscarbine.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 3:23:51 PM EDT
DS arms is a custom house buliding up a reputation for fine, expensive, accurate arms. Their arms are well what they charge, although to be honest I'm not realy sure I'm so good a rifleman that it'd be worth the extra quality tolerances and assembly to pay the difference between that and a Heintz-57 rifle. Very similar to M1As, I've no doubt that the craftsmanship is incredible, and the rifle is worth every penny. My issue however is this- I'm not looking for a percision tactical arm for competition or combat. DSA is one of dozens of FAL options out there and so charging $1,400 for a rifle is both reasonable, and fills a niche. It is by no means the ONLY FAL avaliable out there, there are a few better, and a lot worse. I want a blaster, a guilty pleasure, something that I can throw on the Level III and the hood and play for a while up at the pit and look impressive. I want an MP-5 (and God how I hate this sounds) like in the movies. I dont want an Uzi, or a Calico, or a Spectre...actually I'd take a spectre...time to look on GA. Anyhow, besides buying a $5,000+ H&K, until recently my options have either been pellet guns or Special Weapon's line. All a semi-auto MP5 (or even a machinegun) in my hands will be is a toy, something for shits and giggles. If I can get a second hand SW5 for under a grand, that'll be good enough for me. Not trying to say ANYTHING about the owner of the company or the quality of the product, I'm saying I want one, the real thing doesnt make any sense to me cost wise (I dont even have $5,000 for a necessity, muchless a rifle) and this is one of the only options left to me. Ryan
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