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Posted: 10/4/2002 8:16:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2002 8:22:12 AM EDT by 9divdoc]
Maryland Cops Continue Search for 'Skilled Shooter' Friday, October 04, 2002 [url]http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,64810,00.html[/url] [img]http://www.foxnews.com/images/67749/13_21_100402_spree_shooting_fnc.jpg[/img] SILVER SPRING, Md. — Authorities continued their search Friday morning for the "skilled shooter" who gunned down five random strangers in suburban Montgomery Co., Md. Capt. Nancy Demme, a Montgomery County police spokeswoman, said police were "90 percent" certain that a high-powered hunting or assault-type rifle firing .223-caliber bullets was used. Whether one or many weapons were involved, however, was still undetermined. Joseph M. Riehl, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms special agent in charge of the investigation, displayed several different weapons that could have fired the shots in a Friday morning press conference. List of firearms that may have been used in the Montgomery County shootings Armalite AR-180 Browning Model BBR Bushmaster Firearms Models Colt AR-15 IMI Galil Remington Model 788 Remington Model 722 Remington Model XP-100 They included an AR-15 assault rifle, which is the civilian version of the military M-16, and a bolt-action single-shot hunting rifle. "We feel fairly comfortable that it is connected and being done by a single entity, whether that is one or two people," Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose said on NBC's Today Show. Moose's department was also trying to determine whether a Thursday night slaying in Washington was related to the Maryland killings. In that killing, a 72-year-old man was shot once in the chest while standing on a street corner near the city's border with Montgomery County. A $50,000 reward was offered as tests indicated all five in Maryland were hit from a distance, Moose said. "We do have someone that so far has been very accurate in what they are attempting to do, and so we probably have a skilled shooter," said Moose. Residents remained fearful, and schools opened with extra patrols. Calls poured into emergency dispatchers about loud noises, but all the reports were false alarms, Moose said [img]http://www.foxnews.com/images/67669/13_22_300_100302_dcshooting.jpg[/img] "People are on edge," the police chief said. "We're all human. We're all afraid." While the slayings have not been definitively linked, police said it was very likely they were. None of the victims seemed to have been robbed, or to have known each other. "There's still no information to lead us to think our victims are associated," Moose said. "They don't appear to be anyone's enemies, just random targets." Race and gender did not appear to be motives -- the victims were male and female, Hispanic and white, with one man of Indian origin. "There's still no information to lead us to think our victims are associated," Moose said Friday. "They don't appear to be anyone's enemies, just random targets." A single shot was apparently fired each time, but police were not certain whether the shots came from a vehicle or a fixed location. Demme said detectives were still waiting for results from autopsies. Police released types of weapons they believe could have been used, mostly semiautomatic rifles. Moose said handguns are also made to fire that caliber. He asked people to report any missing weapons. There were no eyewitnesses to the actual shootings, but police said that one person reported seeing a white van with two occupants speed from one scene. Friday morning, police continued to stop white trucks and vans in the area. No stolen vehicles were reported, police said. "We don't have a license plate," Moose said. "We feel like the one we're looking for is still out there." Officers collected security camera videos from businesses near the shooting scenes, including two grocery stores. Moose said authorities were reviewing a surveillance tape from one of the scenes but he declined to release details. "Clearly it has been reviewed and it has been helpful," he said. Maryland Gov. Parris Glendening committed 140 state troopers, a helicopter and whatever additional aid is needed, a spokesman said. The FBI, Secret Service, and ATF also were involved, and officers were stopping all white cargo vans in their search for the killers, police said. "The phone lines are full," Demme said Thursday night. "People are calling." She said detectives were still waiting for results from autopsies and ballistics experts. Montgomery County schools canceled Thursday outdoor activities and locked down school buildings. But classes continued all day and the schools were expected to open at regular times Friday. The killings began early Wednesday evening. Around 6 p.m., James D. Martin, 55, of Silver Spring, a program analyst for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, was shot in the parking lot of a Wheaton grocery store. Around 7:45 a.m. Thursday, James L. "Sonny" Buchanan, 39, Arlington, Va., was killed while cutting grass at a car dealership in the White Flint area. He stumbled toward the building before collapsing as dozens of employees ran toward him. "I just put my hand on his shoulder and said, 'Help is on the way,'" service director Al Briggs told The Washington Post. "But he was already gone." Prenkumar Walekar, 54, of Olney, was shot about 8:15 a.m., while pumping gas into his cab at a Mobil station in the Aspen Hill area. About a half-hour later, Sarah Ramos, 34, of Silver Spring, died at a post office next to the Leisure World retirement community in Silver Spring. Dolores Wallgren said she saw Ramos slumped over on a bench, bleeding from the head, when she arrived to go to a beauty shop nearby. "She was sitting on the bench, just sitting there," Wallgren said. In the fifth shooting, Lori Ann Lewis-Rivera, 25, of Silver Spring, was shot and killed about 10 a.m. at a Shell gas station in Kensington. Mechanics said they heard the shot but didn't see who shot Lewis-Rivera, who was vacuuming her van. Late Thursday, someone placed two small lit candles and a bouquet of carnations on the concrete base below the vacuuming machine. During the shootings, Montgomery County schools were locked down and their outdoor activities were canceled. The schools were open Friday, but Carin Saez, 27, still retrieved her 12-year-old niece, Kiarra Middleton, less than an hour into the school day after deciding it was too dangerous for her to be there. She didn't plan to let her own children return until the killer was caught. "I was petrified to even go to the store last night," Saez said. "My kids were scared. They didn't even want to go outside. They're more scared now than on September 11." The killings brought the number of homicides in Montgomery County to 25 this year, the most since 1997. The last time as many people were killed in one day in the county was in July 1995, when a handyman's assistant killed podiatrist David Marc Goff, his three daughters and a contractor at Goff's home in Potomac. Bruman S. Alvarez pleaded guilty and was sentenced to six consecutive life terms. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:19:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:22:28 AM EDT
List of firearms that may have been used in the Montgomery County shootings Armalite AR-180 Browning Model BBR Bushmaster Firearms Models Colt AR-15 IMI Galil Remington Model 788 Remington Model 722 Remington Model XP-100
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They also had a pair of what appeared to be FN CAL and FNC types on the table. At least that what the noon news here just got through showing. [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sadness.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:23:08 AM EDT
Armalite AR-180 Browning Model BBR Bushmaster Firearms Models Colt AR-15 IMI Galil Remington Model 788 Remington Model 722 Remington Model XP-100
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All those manufacturers should file a lawsuit against whoever originally put out that list for defamation.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:24:44 AM EDT
No Mini 14?
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:26:57 AM EDT
Gee they can't find the shooter? What century is this? Isn't this just a little to convienient with the sunset on 'assault rifles' and high cap magazines coming up? Wake up gunowners!!!!! The October offensive has begun!! X
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:27:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: No Mini 14?
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I guess they figure it is not accurate enough.[:D]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:30:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Armalite AR-180 Browning Model BBR Bushmaster Firearms Models Colt AR-15 IMI Galil Remington Model 788 Remington Model 722 Remington Model XP-100
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All those manufacturers should file a lawsuit against whoever originally put out that list for defamation.
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I agree! It could have been a dozen different models by Remmington, Browning, Howa, Ithica, Weatherby, etc...
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:31:06 AM EDT
Completely irresponsible and just bad police work. Reality: they know absolutely ZERO about the type of weapon used. They won't even know calibre until the autopsies are complete (should be sometime today). These camera whores should be ran out of governement on a set of rails. Pure sensationalism. But what else would you expect from the ATF. JBT's, all of them!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:32:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2002 8:37:05 AM EDT by Grin_N_Barrett]
Originally Posted By Xcessiv4c: Gee they can't find the shooter? What century is this? Isn't this just a little to convienient with the sunset on 'assault rifles' and high cap magazines coming up? Wake up gunowners!!!!! The October offensive has begun!! X
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Are you being cynical & implying that some anti-gunner is going around murdering people in order to draw attention to the AW sunset? I know many of them will try drastic tatics but that would be way over the top. This is some nutcase.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:33:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2002 8:34:39 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:36:15 AM EDT
WHAT ABOUT A SAR3,VEPR OR AN M96?
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:39:10 AM EDT
[b]Police released types of weapons they believe could have been used, mostly semiautomatic rifles.[/b]
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I'd guess that too based on the hundreds of rounds fired off at each location... wait they only fired one shot each time? Oh, uh....
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:39:27 AM EDT
Thats right, keep adding to the list so they can put those names out there & scare to public even more into thinking there are just too many of these.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:51:30 AM EDT
And after all that..."police say shooter may have used a handgun" WTF!? I don't think they really know anytihng. They're just spouting BS to keep the media happy.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:11:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: "The phone lines are full," Demme said Thursday night. "People are calling."
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I hope some of those calls are reporting suspicious gun owning neighbors and result in dynamic entries on their homes.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:23:39 AM EDT
Now might not be the time to be carrying an AR in the trunk.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:37:49 AM EDT
<> [B]STUPID ASSHOLES!!![/B] Now the fucking liberal media, VPC and that dumbass Brady, all the Hollyweird "know-it-alls", and every rotten, ambulance chasing politician from Alaska to Florida are going to jump on the fucking anti-EVIL-BLACK-RIFLE campaign. God thE timing SUCKS! I am so disgusted that the networks keep trying to fill air time with worthless inane details about the weapon. IT DOESN'T MATTER!!! [B][RED]IT'S NOT THE FUCKING GUNS YOU STUPID IDIOTS!!! IT'S SCUMBAG [TERRORIST?] SERIAL KILLERS![/b][/red] It is a sentient human being behind the trigger of the weapon. It doesn't matter one damn bit whether or not it was a bolt action Mauser clone, or any one of the multitude of Evil Black Rifles. The victims are just as dead. It wasn't cases of spray and pray either...you liberals, so don't say a word about mag capacity. [pissed]From my cold, dead fingers...is that clear enough?[pissed] <>
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:49:49 AM EDT
Amen to all of the "cold dead hands" comments here. LWilde, I am with you, brother! Has anyone here yet had the thought that this could be the first of several incidents across the country in an effort to sow terrorism at a grass roots level? The law enforcement officials have released that there is no link of any sort between the victims, and none were robbed or otherwise accosted before or after the shooting. It seems that the only reason for the attacks was to spread terror and our number one suspect should be Al Qaeda. I'll have mine in my truck and can assure you that this will not happen on my watch!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 11:03:47 AM EDT
"...may have been a hunting rifle or an assault weapon..." Well, what else is there? Target rifles? Why did they rule these out? Too accurate...single shot means of placing a bullet EXACTLY where you aim? Nah couldn't be something like that. What about those 200.00 single shot breeak action .223 rifles...New England Arms? The media is covering their bases saying it could be a pistol, rifle, or "assault weapon/rifle"....hell a fucking baseball bat if used to hit somebody (Milwaukee youth thread) could be considered,...no...should be considered an "assault weapon". Afterall, it was the weapon used in an assault. This way the media people can sleep well tonight knowing they reported the "truth" and were the first to report it. "....This just in....somebody was robbed in either a place of business, a public setting or in a residential area...an undisclosed amount of money/ personal property was taken. The victim is either a male or female or child, or any combination of man woman and/or child. Police are on the lookout for one or more people who either knew the victims or didn't know the victims and may have prior crimes of this nature, or might be first time offenders. The suspects got away to either a far away location, or as close as next door either on foot or by means of some wheeled form of transportation. More information will be gathered soon, or the leads could grow cold and the case be an unsolved open case...."
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 11:06:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MP906: And after all that..."police say shooter may have used a handgun" WTF!? I don't think they really know anytihng. They're just spouting BS to keep the media happy.
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Yep! The FOX news article actually have a quote from the police saying that there are "handguns are also made to fire that caliber". Of course they can name all the handgun models that fire 5.56x45mm RIFLE cartridge. Can you believe this stuff??!! We are being demonized to the extreme. It's time to fight back.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 11:11:52 AM EDT
It's an ex-Hoover building janitor with a rifle he stole from work. He's gone psycho over being fired.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 11:12:59 AM EDT
XP-100!?!?!? That settles the AR vs. AK debate forever. [i]Real[/i] operators choose .221 Fireball! Say, wasn't there a few threads about AR uppers in .221 a few months ago? [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=134501&w=searchPop[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=44&t=133719&w=searchPop[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=136878&w=searchPop[/url]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 11:13:07 AM EDT
hey all, haven't posted in a long, long time. Had a collapsed lung and some other crazy stuff. but, i have a theory that would explain all of the "unrelated-ness" of these murders. I would guess that maybe a group of ppl, nutz if you will, got together and planned all this. Maybe a cult or something wierd like that. Each person would pick a target that they knew, each using a different gun and ammo. this would explain that the victims supposedly had no connections at all. It would also explain the different types of ammunition and kinds of powder they say they found. What do you think of this theory?
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 12:15:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LWilde: <> [B]STUPID ASSHOLES!!![/B] Now the fucking liberal media, VPC and that dumbass Brady, all the Hollyweird "know-it-alls", and every rotten, ambulance chasing politician from Alaska to Florida are going to jump on the fucking anti-EVIL-BLACK-RIFLE campaign.
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Well, maybe from WASHINGTON to Florida [;)] But laws made on Federal level affect us all [:(]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 12:32:02 PM EDT
This is getting me so mad, I'm getting sick!! Where the fuck are all the Pro-2nd Amendement groups' (that I been sending money to, all these years) "spokespeople"!!! Why are the liberal assholes allowed to scream so loud and I don't hear a fuckin peep outa the NRA, KABA, etc. etc.... Who's organizing the "Million Pissed Off Americans" March demanding the Feds allow us to protect our loved ones, property and ourselves. WTF!!!!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 12:41:34 PM EDT
Who's the fat, bald asshole in the pic?? Who called this abortion of a press conference??? Phone #'s?? Email addys???
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 12:51:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: No Mini 14?
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Good point....But lets face it, the Mini-14 isn't worth a shit in-terms of accuracy... But you make a very good point...However, the Mini-14 is not an "evil black assault rifle", and that's what they want to get rid of...
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 2:22:19 PM EDT
How can they know that it is not a .222, .22-.250, or something along those lines?
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 2:42:35 PM EDT
I hope when this guy is caught he has a New England Arms with a Tasco scope. Would like to see the "experts" explain it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 3:26:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 3:40:13 PM EDT
Shepherd Smith just said on the Fox Report that the cops identified a AR-15 as the weapon used in the shootings when they did not do such a thing. Here is his e-mail, let him have it: foxreport@foxnews.com
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 3:44:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: [size=3]Expect to see more of these Manchurian Candidates go on shooting sprees as the AW Ban Sunset approaches. And expect them to get LOTS of press.[/size=3] -Troy
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Call it tinfoil hat, but I really belive you're right.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 3:51:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: "The phone lines are full," Demme said Thursday night. "People are calling."
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I hope some of those calls are reporting suspicious gun owning neighbors and result in dynamic entries on their homes.
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[img]http://members.cox.net/azcop/images/BATF_Thugs.jpg[/img] Ooohhh Yeah. I think they confused the AR15 round for a 10-22 round. That's where I'd start kicking in doors. Jay [img]http://members.cox.net/azcop/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 3:56:44 PM EDT
I really really hope the "two white male" description doesn't mean two white American males, but hopefully two Saudi (I'm using Saudi because they were the majority of 9/11 participants) males who are part of a last gasp Al Queida cell in the US carrying out a very effective, though limited, effort. If this is some idiotic "you're all sheeple" demonstration of ill-conceived power, I hope they capture them alive. No glorious "fight to the death for the cause" ending, but a "meet Bubba, your new wife" life sentence. But I really have no strong feelings on the matter. [;)]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 4:16:10 PM EDT
I haven't heard anything since yesterday, but just looking at the replies..... Could I believe that "some people" would actually resort to something like this event to get their agenda passed? As in get the AW bill to be pass and/or stricker rules? My answer; yes. Why? Anything is possible. Could it be terrorists, possibly. An agenda is a dangerouse thing.... people can and will find ways to twist the truth to fit their needs. This is a dark time for the United States of America. The next few years will be critical in my opinion. Freedoms will be put to the test...... and this is one test that we can not fail.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 4:19:12 PM EDT
When I saw that list of "possible firearms to [s]Ban[/s] that could just maybe have been used in these crimes I almost lost composure right there at work. My blood pressure is still way up there. I have started to notice the people around me giving me strange looks, wonder who is going to get called because I have Shotgun News or my CDNN catalog, or even my Garand collectors book out on my desk. I know MN is a far trip from MD but these news stories (I heavily stress the word stories) spook the sheeple into irrational thinking and action... Looks like the gun list was taken off of the Foxnews Story...
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 4:26:48 PM EDT
Now instead of the list of firearms in the story they have a picture of 3 batf dipshits front and center on the main page. One has an Ar15 of M16A?, I cannot tell exactly. And another has a Daewoo DR-200. BTW batf=(Bureau of Assholes, Thugs, and Fuckers) Hope someone beats these media guys to death with a fucking whiffle bat.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 4:31:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gorto: Now instead of the list of firearms in the story they have a picture of 3 batf dipshits front and center on the main page. One has an Ar15 or M16A?, I cannot tell exactly. And another has a Daewoo DR-200. BTW batf=(Bureau of Assholes, Thugs, and Fuckers) Hope someone beats these media guys to death with a fucking whiffle bat.
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now now, is that the kind of image you want to present to our new "guests"?
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 5:05:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407:
Originally Posted By Gorto: Now instead of the list of firearms in the story they have a picture of 3 batf dipshits front and center on the main page. One has an Ar15 or M16A?, I cannot tell exactly. And another has a Daewoo DR-200. BTW batf=(Bureau of Assholes, Thugs, and Fuckers) Hope someone beats these media guys to death with a fucking whiffle bat.
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now now, is that the kind of image you want to present to our new "guests"?
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Sorry, have to vent. I am still having trouble trying to stomach my, well our really, soon to be announced title as domestic terrorists. All for owning, and legally using, a rifle. A rifle that looks "scary". I wish I could reason with these anti's but they're adamant in their beliefs. No amount of reasoning and sound logic can convince them. I also believe that any anti's trolling around this site are not looking for the truth of the matter. They come here looking for "evidence" that "gun people" are not right in the head. It is mental masturbation, they want proof their backwards views are correct to make themselves feel better. This is the same way a bigot looks for examples of minority crime to "prove" that all minorities are bad. It may be true that what I said was inflammatory to the point of needing asbestos underwear to read. But it seems like anything we say will be perverted to fit their needs. If they see an articulate argument they will dismiss it, or take parts out of context to hurt our cause. If they don't find "evidence" of "gun nuts" they will claim some kind of conspiracy of silence. I wish I knew how we could turn this around. Not trying to ride your ass or anything, just ranting a bit. I would like to see the WBB (Whiffle Bat Ban) of 2002 put in place to save the children, the rainforest, Pandas, etc...
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 6:30:51 PM EDT
This is just the sort of thing I have been dreading all along. The greatest strength America has is her armed citizens. The best way to disarm us is to cause our own short sighted, knee jerk politicians to do their dirty work. It's a smart tactic. Use our own political system against us. The Liberals and Moderates will fall right in line. Some unwittingly. Some willfully, and grateful. They will be advancing OBL's agenda. I sure hope I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:00:43 PM EDT
Ok Here's my spin. #1 The shooter knows what he's doing, and is a pro/operator = TERRORIST. The FBI (Fuc*ing Bumbling Idiots)finally admitted today that it points to terrorism, DUH. www.worldnetdaily.com #2 The ATF knows exactly what it's doing holding up two "assault rifles" on national TV. 24 hours later and they have POSSIBLY identified what type of rifle may have been used? B U L L S H I T. #3 One enemy may be known to the citizenry as Al Queda, the most alarming threat to our freedom, is the one our tax dollars are paying for. [x]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:06:36 PM EDT
... I dunno about being mad, my neighbors and I were laughing at the complete asses the Police spokesman were making of themselves. ... Their tactics of yore will come back to replace them with sensible public officials.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:11:08 PM EDT
Did anybody see the guy on FOX saying he thought the rifle had to have a scope? He stated that these types of shots could [i]easliy[/i] be made with a scoped rifle. Therefore, anyone could be doing the shooting. It wouldn't have to be a trained marksman, because with a scope, [i]anyone[/i] can make these kinds of shots. Even an amateur thrillseeker. These people are so full of shit they stink.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:50:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2002 7:55:54 PM EDT by stator]
This is a load of khrap coming from BATF. If they do have cartridges, they will already know the type of weapon, or at least narrowed it down to very few. This is done by lab analysis of the extractor marks, magazine and feeding marks, and microscopic stress fractures. The same type of rifles leave a comparable footprint of marks on cartridges. Detailed markings separate which rifle out of the same type. Edited to add this: my guess is that it is a semi-auto rifle (real easy to determine that due to the stress the brass takes on ejection compared to a bolt) and that is is an "AW". The BATF is just whipping up the media frenzy before comfirming the weapon. If what is true about shooting from inside the van, then a semi is going to be likely due to the ejection of brass which could get out of the van.
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 10:10:57 AM EDT
FOXNEWS SAYS: Experts say it is possible the killer was once in the military, or wanted to be, and may be obsessed with the military. Brown said the killer may also have Soldier of Fortune or other military-type magazines in his possession. I guess this means that since I have a subscription to SOF, I practice regularly, and have several .223 rifles. I'm a suspect. DAMN!!! Guilty by association!!! X
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