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Posted: 10/2/2002 5:45:59 AM EDT
[b]I couldn't freaking BELIEVE THIS![/b] Someone at Camp Lejeune has been sabotaging a bunch of Marines' parachutes by cutting some critical lines in a manner to kill Force Recon Marines. [shock] Apparently, this is ANOTHER MARINE!!! The guy[s?] who are responsible obviously know what they are doing. Initial investigations have shown that the cutting of the critical straps/cords whatever, has been done very carefully and in a manner to perfectly avoid detection by the normal quality control checks. This is absolutely fucking disgusting. Fortunately no Marines were killed, but only by the Grace of God. Here is the link: [url]http://www.jdnews.com/Details.cfm?StoryID=7462[/url]
Parachutes cut by a deft hand By ERIC STEINKOPFF DAILY NEWS STAFF Camp Lejeune authorities again Tuesday said that safety and security procedures were sound despite the sabotage of 13 parachutes, nine of which investigators said had lines cut in such a way that that traditional inspection methods would not have detected the damage. Three Marines on Sept. 21 were forced to use reserve chutes after jumping from a C-17 Globemaster flying over a drop zone at Camp Lejeune’s Camp Davis training complex. The Marines from Air Delivery Platoon, 2nd Transportation Support Battalion, 2nd Force Service Support Group suffered minor injuries. Jumpmasters Sgt. Britton Howes and Sgt. John Laverde halted the training mission when they realized that three of five jumpers departing the aircraft went out without their main parachutes, according to the Camp Lejeune Public Affairs Office. Upon landing at Cherry Point Air Station, they discovered that suspension lines to Laverde’s parachute had been cut. Gunnery Sgt. Vic Ziliani, parachute rigger in charge of the 2nd Force Reconnaissance Company Paraloft at Courthouse Bay, explained that during jumps a static line remains attached to the aircraft and pulls a bag containing the main parachute out of the jumper’s backpack. The parachute normally slides out of the bag because it is still attached to the jumper’s harness by nylon suspension lines and straps called risers. When Howes and Laverde pulled the five static lines and bags back into the aircraft after the Marines jumped, three bags still contained the main parachutes instead of staying with the jumpers. After the plane landed, Naval Criminal Investigative Service agents confiscated 22 main MC1 parachutes and discovered that nine more of them had severed suspension lines which were cut in such a way that traditional inspection methods would not have detected the sabotage, officials said. NCIS agents are scheduled to analyze and test the 13 sabotaged MC1 main parachutes and associated T-10 reserve parachutes as part of their investigation. There is also a Judge Advocate General’s investigation of the incident. On Tuesday, parachute riggers Staff Sgt. Shawn O’hea and Sgt. Carlos Snead from 2nd Force Reconnaissance Company laid four parachutes on a pair of long tables to demonstrate to the media how they carefully pack the rigs. “It takes about 35 to 40 minutes to correctly pack a parachute, depending on the experience of the rigger,” Ziliani said. Working in tandem as they are required to do, they walked the length of the tables, running their hands over the lines, working the different fasteners and looking for signs of problems. Snead ran his fingers inside and outside of the green silky material to check for damage and folded the sections lengthwise as they prepared to gently place the parachute into the deployment bag and eventually into the pack tray assembly. A parachute log record book is with each rig. It includes the name of the packer, the inspector, the deployment bag number, the date packed and the unit, Ziliani said. “Only two of my sergeants and above have keys to this (paraloft) facility and even the (duty) officer of the day does not have a key,” Ziliani said. “(After they are packed) the chutes remain locked in the chute locker until we are ready to use them.” Officials did not release the location of the facility where the damaged parachutes were packed or stored, but did say that all parachutes belonging to 2nd Transportation Support Battalion and 2nd Radio Battalion were being inspected and repacked. Air Delivery Platoon maintains a paraloft facility on McHugh Boulevard in the French Creek Area of Camp Lejeune that supports both units. No other parachutes belonging to these commands showed signs of tampering and only those that were on that flight on Sept. 21 are in question, officials said.
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When they catch the perp[s], I would turn them over to the Recon boys...then I would court martial the leftovers. [pissed]
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 6:08:58 AM EDT
You know in the old days a rigger was handed a chute at random and told to jump with it, is it still done like that, I thought that was a good quality control measure.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 6:13:50 AM EDT
The Fifth Column has been mobilized.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 6:13:52 AM EDT
They are lucky. Way to go for the jumpmaster for calling the jump off so quickly . The main chutes they use suck compared with the state of the art types available now and the reserves are even worse.You can come in very hard and very fast. It is a miracle no one was hurt. Attempted murder is too good for the cocksucker who cut the lines.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 6:18:59 AM EDT
The worst possible punishment on the face of the planet is to subject yourself to the behind the scenes judicial system of a United States Marine. The formal charges are the LAST thing that guilty soul has to worry about. ~Hokieman out Semper Fi
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 6:27:59 AM EDT
Any Marines out there care to share with us from what height you guys normally jump? I've been told many training jumps some Army units come in at 800 feet - you would have to have amazing reflexes to identify the problem and deploy the reserve in time. Perhaps since they were doing heavy drops they were at a higher altitude? Either way, I'm sure glad they made it to the ground OK. I hope they catch the bastard. Adam "5 jump chump with no clue" White
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 7:52:49 AM EDT
That has happened the skydiving world a couple times. Most have been found before anyone jumped the shit. A guy did jump a sabotaged rig in the US a few years ago. Main and reseverve were damaged and he was seriously hurt.No one has ever been caught for any of the incidents that I know of. In Germany a guy tried to sabotage a girls rig in a case of unrequited love a few years back. Dont remember what happened to him. Serious shit.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 8:23:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hokie: The worst possible punishment on the face of the planet is to subject yourself to the behind the scenes judicial system of a United States Marine. The formal charges are the LAST thing that guilty soul has to worry about. ~Hokieman out Semper Fi
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That's the truth! That shit stick had better pray he gets picked up by NCIS and locked away in solitary before some Marine puts 2 and 2 together.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 8:57:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By u-baddog: They are lucky. Way to go for the jumpmaster for calling the jump off so quickly . The main chutes they use suck compared with the state of the art types available now and the reserves are even worse.You can come in very hard and very fast. It is a miracle no one was hurt. Attempted murder is too good for the cocksucker who cut the lines.
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Most parachute jumps in the military are still conducted with some variant of the MC1-1 steerable parachute. This is a round, static-line deployed parachute with moderate steerability by means of two toggle handles attached to lines that operate flaps in the main chute. Panels removed from the rearward surface of the chute dump air from the rear to help maintain a forward drift. By pulling the toggles, other pannels on either side of these steering opening, open up to dump additional air and turn the parachute in that direction. The system is reasonably safe for the purposes of training and combat parachute jumps, maintaining a descent rate of 17-22 feet per second depending upon jumper/gear weight, prevailing wind direction and speed. It's roughly like jumping out of a second storey window. Military parachute jumps are rarely covert affairs unless they are being performed by special operations troops on a covert or clandestine mission. Thus there is a high likelihood of armed resistance being encountered on the drop zone or arriving shortly after the drop. Thus it is imperative that jumpers get on the ground quickly, and that they spend as little time defenseless in the air as possible. Although it is technically illegal to fire on a soldier descending in a parachute, that particular rule of war is ignored pretty much by everyone. So Rangers will jump onto a hot DZ from as little as 500 feet Above Ground Level (AGL) and will deploy without a reserve parachute since they will have almost zero time to recognize a malfunction and throw their reserve before impacting. Army training jumps at the Basic Airborne Course are at around 1250 feet AGL. At Airborne units they can be higher or lower depending upon training requirements and goals. It takes about 4 seconds from vehicle exit to opening shock during a military static line jump. Descent under a properly deployed parachute takes about 30-40 seconds from 1250 feet AGL. Much of the descent is accomplished during the initial 4 seconds of parachute deployment. In a low level AGL combat jump, the parachute just about has time to break the soldier's fall prior to landing. Injury rates are relatively high in those sorts of jumps. The T-10 reserve parachute is not a fully functional parachute as compared to the Mc1-1 series. It is a non-steerable, fully round chute with no directional venting. It has short suspension lines, open very quickly, and has a faster rate of descent thanks to a smaller canopy size necessary to stuff it into the reserve bag. It is essentially a lifesaver parachute which should get you down alive, but the chance of injury is relatively high. The modern, state of the art airfoil parachutes used by recreational skydivers and military freefall parachutists are wonders. With glide ratios as high as 7 or 8 feet of forward glide to each 1 foot of descent, they can be used to jump at high altitude (as much as 30,000 feet) on one side of a border and fly 30 miles or more to the other side of the border for a covert insertion. They are also extraordinarily expensive compared to the Mc1-1 bravo, and are a wasted expense for the majority of military parachute jumps since the glide capability and precision steerability are not required for airfield assaults such as was conducted in Grenada and Panama, or the Ranger assaults in Afghanistan. Especially since many parachutes are lost, abandoned or destroyed in combat jumps. I'd jump an MC1-1B again in a second BTW. I've got absolute confidence in the system when properly maintained and packed. I was injured in a jump with an MC1-1B parachute, but that wasn't the parachute's fault, it was mine. Most parachute injuries are operator errors despite what we tell our buddies whilst lying in a hospital bed with our leg in traction. It's not the chute, or the wind or the ground, it id the operator for failing to judge the current conditions and effectively compensate by steering properly, slipping into the wind prior to landing and performing a proper parachute landing fall.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 10:05:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 10:09:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2002 10:11:01 AM EDT by trickshot]
I guess not all Marines are happy about their existence or are hooah born again hard or whatever, eh? But I thought the parachute packers had to sign the little cards on the chutes they packed and agree to jump any chute they pack themselves. Is that not true? Maybe they're "hiring" inmates to pack chutes nowadays...
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 11:12:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By icemanat95: Although it is technically illegal to fire on a soldier descending in a parachute, that particular rule of war is ignored pretty much by everyone.
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Excellent post, but I must disagree with you on one point. Paratroopers are considered combatants even when they are in the air and as such may be legally targeted. A pilot escaping an aircraft by parachute however, is considered a non-combatant and must be given the chance to surrender.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 11:29:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: I guess not all Marines are happy about their existence or are hooah born again hard or whatever, eh? But I thought the parachute packers had to sign the little cards on the chutes they packed and agree to jump any chute they pack themselves. Is that not true? Maybe they're "hiring" inmates to pack chutes nowadays...
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If it is a "Marine" that did it, then that scum bag lost his title the instant he did it. Some kind words of advise for you trickshot, it is in your best interests to leave your off color remarks about Marines to yourself. We will keep our own house in order, and don't need any outside input from outsiders on how to conduct our business.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 11:34:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By icemanat95:
Originally Posted By u-baddog: They are lucky. Way to go for the jumpmaster for calling the jump off so quickly . The main chutes they use suck compared with the state of the art types available now and the reserves are even worse.You can come in very hard and very fast. It is a miracle no one was hurt. Attempted murder is too good for the cocksucker who cut the lines.
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Most parachute jumps in the military are still conducted with some variant of the MC1-1 steerable parachute. This is a round, static-line deployed parachute with moderate steerability by means of two toggle handles attached to lines that operate flaps in the main chute. Panels removed from the rearward surface of the chute dump air from the rear to help maintain a forward drift. By pulling the toggles, other pannels on either side of these steering opening, open up to dump additional air and turn the parachute in that direction. The system is reasonably safe for the purposes of training and combat parachute jumps, maintaining a descent rate of 17-22 feet per second depending upon jumper/gear weight, prevailing wind direction and speed. It's roughly like jumping out of a second storey window. Military parachute jumps are rarely covert affairs unless they are being performed by special operations troops on a covert or clandestine mission. Thus there is a high likelihood of armed resistance being encountered on the drop zone or arriving shortly after the drop. Thus it is imperative that jumpers get on the ground quickly, and that they spend as little time defenseless in the air as possible. Although it is technically illegal to fire on a soldier descending in a parachute, that particular rule of war is ignored pretty much by everyone. So Rangers will jump onto a hot DZ from as little as 500 feet Above Ground Level (AGL) and will deploy without a reserve parachute since they will have almost zero time to recognize a malfunction and throw their reserve before impacting. Army training jumps at the Basic Airborne Course are at around 1250 feet AGL. At Airborne units they can be higher or lower depending upon training requirements and goals. It takes about 4 seconds from vehicle exit to opening shock during a military static line jump. Descent under a properly deployed parachute takes about 30-40 seconds from 1250 feet AGL. Much of the descent is accomplished during the initial 4 seconds of parachute deployment. In a low level AGL combat jump, the parachute just about has time to break the soldier's fall prior to landing. Injury rates are relatively high in those sorts of jumps. The T-10 reserve parachute is not a fully functional parachute as compared to the Mc1-1 series. It is a non-steerable, fully round chute with no directional venting. It has short suspension lines, open very quickly, and has a faster rate of descent thanks to a smaller canopy size necessary to stuff it into the reserve bag. It is essentially a lifesaver parachute which should get you down alive, but the chance of injury is relatively high. The modern, state of the art airfoil parachutes used by recreational skydivers and military freefall parachutists are wonders. With glide ratios as high as 7 or 8 feet of forward glide to each 1 foot of descent, they can be used to jump at high altitude (as much as 30,000 feet) on one side of a border and fly 30 miles or more to the other side of the border for a covert insertion. They are also extraordinarily expensive compared to the Mc1-1 bravo, and are a wasted expense for the majority of military parachute jumps since the glide capability and precision steerability are not required for airfield assaults such as was conducted in Grenada and Panama, or the Ranger assaults in Afghanistan. Especially since many parachutes are lost, abandoned or destroyed in combat jumps. I'd jump an MC1-1B again in a second BTW. I've got absolute confidence in the system when properly maintained and packed. I was injured in a jump with an MC1-1B parachute, but that wasn't the parachute's fault, it was mine. Most parachute injuries are operator errors despite what we tell our buddies whilst lying in a hospital bed with our leg in traction. It's not the chute, or the wind or the ground, it id the operator for failing to judge the current conditions and effectively compensate by steering properly, slipping into the wind prior to landing and performing a proper parachute landing fall.
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A MC1-1B is what I jumped my first 18 jumps under. Steerable is not the word I would use to describe the performance of a issuse rig ,It is more like you can turn around so you can face what you are going to hit. Remember feet and knees together. Back to the thread topic I think a lot of people could have access to the loft it is not uncommon to have riggers working on private projects late into the evening. I hope they catch the Mther fkier . I am not optimistic if NIS is leading the investigation.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 12:04:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2002 12:05:49 PM EDT by SJSAMPLE]
Originally Posted By icemanat95: Although it is technically illegal to fire on a soldier descending in a parachute, that particular rule of war is ignored pretty much by everyone.
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It's illegal to shoot at [i]noncombatants[/i]. Three battalions of airborne motherfuckers intent on erasing your existence are definitely [b]not[/b] noncombatants. Perfectly legal. However, aircrews who have departed a formerly operational aircraft are not considered combatants, and are not fair game. Edited because Nimrod1193 beat me to it [;)]
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 12:18:16 PM EDT
I saw the story on CNN this AM. I am is shock that this happened. First off it wasn't just one or two. It was something like 10-15 that were messed with. WHO THE F in their right mind would do that. What went on is this guy a terrorist working undercover or just one sick puppy. I pray they find him before something happens. Maybe he knew they were being called up. He thought they were going to Afgan-Land or on a mission to capture a Terrorist. Could you imagine all those guys getting hurt on a mission. Let alone a training exercise. Something is VERY Wrong here and needs to be plugged very fast.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 12:54:00 PM EDT
It's the type of crime that deserves a firing squad, his body buried at sea without ceremony, never on American soil.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 1:22:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR_XVDOG: It's the type of crime that deserves a firing squad, his body buried at sea without ceremony, never on American soil.
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Burial at sea is an honorable Naval Tradition. Feed that fucker to the hogs!
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 1:38:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Originally Posted By AR_XVDOG: It's the type of crime that deserves a firing squad, his body buried at sea without ceremony, never on American soil.
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Burial at sea is an honorable Naval Tradition. Feed that fucker to the hogs!
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Head on a pike dammnit!!!!!!!!!!!! visible deterrents, hmmm, maybe impalation in a public emporium?
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 1:47:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: A guy did jump a sabotaged rig in the US a few years ago. Main and reseverve were damaged and he was seriously hurt.No one has ever been caught for any of the incidents that I know of.
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I can't recall the exact details, but there was an enlisted rigger caught and convicted for sabatoging an officer's rig.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 1:48:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2002 1:52:51 PM EDT by Johninaustin]
Just an idea, do marines rig parachutes exclusively, or could it have been a civilian worker? Maybe one with Middle East ties? I remember a big case right when I joined the army. Some scumbag melted the shroud lines of parachutes with a lighter, trying to get back at a fellow soldier that owed him drug money. Managed to kill a captain instead. One other guy made it to the ground and wasn't hurt. Upon inspecting the other parachutes in stock they found 29 others he'd "customized" You and I may be talking about the same guy. If I remember right, it was at Ft Bragg.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 3:53:11 PM EDT
Talbalos, I was speaking of a sport skydiving incident. The ironic thing about the case is someone borrowed the guy's gear. The guy who got hurt was not the intended target. I know a girl in Deland who had her main riser's cut and the reserve ripcord cut. No one was ever caught. It was discovered in a routine pre-jump inspection.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 4:11:00 PM EDT
Although it is technically illegal to fire on a soldier descending in a parachute, that particular rule of war is ignored pretty much by everyone.
I believe that you have misconstrued the Geneva Convention. If the parachute is a means of delivery for the individual to perform in combat operations it is not illegal to fire on said parachutist. If a parachute is used as a means of escape from an aircraft by a crew member it is an illegal act to shoot the parachutist.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 4:38:13 PM EDT
Served 3 1/2 years in the 82nd Airborne. Managed to get my Jumpmaster wings before I ETS'd. I think I have around 30 jumps to my credit; mostly mass tac's. Never had a chute opening problem but witnessed several. I watched from about 800' as a guy in my squad had a malfunction, deployed his reserve at no more than 100', drilled straight into the ground and lived. It was the kind of thing where you forget where you are while you're watching it and go "Holy Shit!!" I'd heard about the riggers occasionally being picked to jump with the chutes they packed, but my faith in QC was somewhat diminished when I'd read the little log book attached to the pack and see entries like "Mickey Mouse" or "Fuk Yu Tu"... hey, for $50.00 more a month it was worth it.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 5:07:40 PM EDT
Make the nimrod rigger jump every single chute he packed nonstop till there is a failure or he packs himself into the ground out of fear of the marines. By the way, anyone know the difference between an "PLF" and an "PFL"?
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 5:28:59 PM EDT
Wow! Three people already jumped in to clarify the legal difference between a "paratrooper" and a "parachutist." Last year a thread went days before I had to jump in to clear that up (pun intended). Another indicator that the breadth of experience and knowledge on this board is growing exponentially. I just wanted to add that I did three jumps in '95 with a T10C parachute. I never felt I hit the ground any harder than with the steerable MC1-1B ( I realize, of course, that landings are likely easier with riser going over your shoulder vs. out from your hips and when you have the time to properly assume the "landing attitude") Heck, my worst landing was with the dang steerable chute. You are supposed to steer into the wind at ~100 ft. AGL to prepare for landing. Well, it just so happened that at that same altitude I enetered a different wind - it was suddenly at my back. The wind, plus the intentionally designed forward motion of the chute, caused me to hit the ground as if jumping from a rather fast moving truck. Haven't jumped since the school and don't really have any plans to unless I suddenly have orders to Ft. Bragg. Adam
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 5:55:53 PM EDT
Do we know for a fact that anybody other that a Marine has put hands on the chutes? I can guess what the Marines would do to the guy(s)but it's safe out here in the civilian world either,if there is any way the guy is running around out here they better not put out a "APB" or have his mug up on the news as is customary today. This guy would end up some place with a nice view of Jimmy Hoffa.[;)]
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 6:46:09 PM EDT
Anyone for profiling? Or should they start looking for grannies to interrogate?
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 7:23:06 PM EDT
I am not a Marine but I am confident they would know how to deal with this individual. I say turn him overr to them for 24 hours and let them solve the problem- unhindered. This is way serious stuff - attempted murder, no more, no less. Sure hope they catch the idiot.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 10:07:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Backstop: Make the nimrod rigger jump every single chute he packed nonstop till there is a failure or he packs himself into the ground out of fear of the marines.
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HEY!!! I didn't do it! Nobody saw me do it; I wasn't even in the area! I'VE GOT AN ALIBI DAMNIT! [shock]
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 10:26:07 PM EDT
Find the perp(s) and make them jump with a chute with no risers or reserve. Somebody's playing for the wrong team.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 10:30:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DPeacher: If it is a "Marine" that did it, then that scum bag lost his title the instant he did it. Some kind words of advise for you trickshot, it is in your best interests to leave your off color remarks about Marines to yourself. We will keep our own house in order, and don't need any outside input from outsiders on how to conduct our business.
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What he said!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 4:35:48 PM EDT
Nimrod- oh man I'm sorry. But I gotta tell ya your post gave me the best laugh of the day!! Wonder if the neighbors heard me!! Ok here's the difference: PLF= parachute landing fall PFL= poor fuckin' landing Nimrod I'm still laughing!!
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