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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:50:08 PM EDT
[#1]
RIP The conspiracy thoughts should have left your head the minute you read that there was a survivor and it would have been best if you left it out of the announcement thread... |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:52:02 PM EDT
[#2]
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They train hard, probably as hard as any group out there, and train in dangerous activities. These are the risks, and as a jumper I don't see how you can find any "sinister motive" going on with this accident. They fold their own chutes, and gear just doesn't fail like it used to with the old gear jumping rounds. If jumpers go in these days, it's because the jumper made a mistake, not the gear going bad, or someone trying to "do them in". Plus trying to sabotage someone's jumping gear, it's pretty easy to spot anything that would actually do them harm after the fact, so it would be well know shortly after the accident. Alot easier ways to do something in then to try and induce a skydiving malfunction. Hell, make them jump enough and it will happen, the stats speak for themselves. OnyxSkyDV Location: check Member name: check 
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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:52:04 PM EDT
[#3]
RIP Sailor.
To answer your question. I think accident's like these have always happened, but now they get reported more often than they used to, because of all the public & media attention SF/SEALs have been getting in the last few years. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:55:31 PM EDT
[#4]
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You're talking about real men who live on the edge of life every day, perfecting the skills that keep us free. Like astronauts, they know that every mission, every exercise, could be their last. Don't dishonor them by questioning their commitment or their ability. He isn't. He's wondering why so many have died lately and suggesting maybe there are ulterior motives... As far as I know, they die often, and it's being publicized now. Ulterior motives? To me, that's a dishonor to the profession. Sorry. It's a dishonor to the profession to suggest that the CIA, Barack Obama, or China is killing Seal Team 6 Members? Why would the CIA kill SEALs? 
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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:56:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Two SEALs died back in 2008 during parachute training.
Stuff happens, it's tragic, but it's not something new http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/navy-parachute-malfunctions-likely-led-seals-deaths The report noted that circumstances had made it difficult for Vaccaro to check his altimeter and determine how high he was. It suggested reviewing the equipment and possibly giving jumpers an audible or flashing alarm to remind them when they reach 3,500 feet, the recommended altitude to start deploying a reserve.
Though I am somewhat suprised they don't use Audibles, especially since they jump at night. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:56:54 PM EDT
[#6]
RIP.
LOL at the "theory". When someone is injured/killed in a highly risky activity, the first thing I think is that Obama must have caused it. Certainly not Bu$h, though. He only causes mega-disasters and capitalism. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:58:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Fight like you train, train like you fight.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 2:58:17 PM EDT
[#8]
If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity.
I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:01:20 PM EDT
[#9]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. It was a night excercise. That is a likely scenario, as well as a freefall collision during a HALO or regular jump. Two people tracking and colliding can result in bad news for one or both, particularly if it causes a premature canopy deployment in a tumble combined with unconciousness. No AAD is going to save you from that. The fatc that it was a night jump only subtracts from the "foul play" theory. Night jumps = higher risk. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:02:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
True.
Parachuting is not safe, especially in close proximity to others. This stuff happens to military and recreational jumpers relatively often. I know a Private that landed in power wires in a Proficiency Jump. No equipment other than the parachutes. He was completely unharmed. He did get plenty of jokes about getting curly hair. Then there was a SFC who had his parachute partially disconnect from the harness. He got a scar on his chin and an end to his career as a Paratrooper. Seals and everybody else that wears wings on their shirt and earns Jump Pay volunteered the chance of a permanent injury or death. 
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:04:28 PM EDT
[#11]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. I'd actually be surprised if it was a collision. While a collision is possible, the times I was working with them during training they usually set up good approach patterns. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:05:32 PM EDT
[#12]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. I'd actually be surprised if it was a collision. While a collision is possible, the times I was working with them during training they usually set up good approach patterns. With two people involved it seems much more likely it was a collision. The best planned approach means nothing when two people open too close to each other and become entangled or collide. Hell, one could have opened below the other prematurely. Lot's of variables, and being a training excercise experience could have easily come into play. I doubt all SEALs are super-trained jumpers before hitting the teams. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:06:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: From what I understand injury and death due to training accidents is common in that community. They do a lot of very high risk stuff. This. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:08:57 PM EDT
[#14]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. I'd actually be surprised if it was a collision. While a collision is possible, the times I was working with them during training they usually set up good approach patterns. With two people involved it seems much more likely it was a collision. The best planned approach means nothing when two people open too close to each other and become entangled or collide. Hell, one could have opened below the other prematurely. Lot's of variables, and being a training excercise experience could have easily come into play. I doubt all SEALs are super-trained jumpers before hitting the teams. OK -- I've calmed down. I'll agree that this seems like a tragic accident but the SpecOps community has lost a lot of good people the past couple of years. It's is not going unnoticed. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:10:18 PM EDT
[#15]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. I'd actually be surprised if it was a collision. While a collision is possible, the times I was working with them during training they usually set up good approach patterns. With two people involved it seems much more likely it was a collision. The best planned approach means nothing when two people open too close to each other and become entangled or collide. Hell, one could have opened below the other prematurely. Lot's of variables, and being a training excercise experience could have easily come into play. I doubt all SEALs are super-trained jumpers before hitting the teams. OK -- I've calmed down. I'll agree that this seems like a tragic accident but the SpecOps community has lost a lot of good people the past couple of years. It's is not going unnoticed. They have been the tip of the spear for over a decade. If they were all lounging around doing weapons maintenance every day I'd give it a thought. Accelerated use + accelerated training = higher incident rate. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:12:19 PM EDT
[#16]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:13:17 PM EDT
[#17]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? The same way that 9/11 truth makes people look retarded. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:15:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Fair winds and following seas, Sailor.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:16:22 PM EDT
[#19]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? The same way that 9/11 truth makes people look retarded. I'll agree with that. But I don't see how questioning as to why the increase of accidental deaths among special forces is making gun owners look retarded. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:16:33 PM EDT
[#20]
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There have been way too many "accidents" involving the death of elite members of our special forces over the last two years to call it a coincidence. That's pretty epic, Ed. AAahh, what you did... |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:17:29 PM EDT
[#21]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? The same way that 9/11 truth makes people look retarded. That's a stretch. Plenty of people who own guns say stupid shit in passing, and it doesn't make gun owners look retarded. Sounds like self righteous GD bullshit to me. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:17:37 PM EDT
[#22]
muh,, i bet there aren't any more deaths now, then what it was say 30 years ago. we just hear about it more often becaue of the internet. and the "need to know" syndrome.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:19:09 PM EDT
[#23]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? The same way that 9/11 truth makes people look retarded. I'll agree with that. But I don't see how questioning as to why the increase of accidental deaths among special forces is making gun owners look retarded. It is the suggestion that an Obama conspiracy to kill off navy SEALs makes him sound like another looney gun nut, I believe is what he was saying. R.I.P. soldier. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:19:31 PM EDT
[#24]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? The same way that 9/11 truth makes people look retarded. I'll agree with that. But I don't see how questioning as to why the increase of accidental deaths among special forces is making gun owners look retarded. No, it's the constant conspiracy bullshit. As far as an increase in fatalities, what were the stats in previous years? |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:19:46 PM EDT
[#25]
RIP Seal.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:20:22 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:20:26 PM EDT
[#27]
there is a lot of skydiving done out of Marana, Arizona.
They might have been doing some training w/ their HALO/HAHO rigs (?) those rigs are not as "dangerous" as the round T-10's. I've seen quite a few nasty injuries with them. I recall one jump, we had everyone except the BC land w/o problems; he broke both his legs (IIRC). |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:20:34 PM EDT
[#28]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? The same way that 9/11 truth makes people look retarded. I'll agree with that. But I don't see how questioning as to why the increase of accidental deaths among special forces is making gun owners look retarded. No, it's the constant conspiracy bullshit. As far as an increase in fatalities, what were the stats in previous years? Stats don't matter. Media attention on the stats is what matters when people "feel" things. 
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:21:44 PM EDT
[#29]
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What in the FUCK is going on with our special forces community?! I have been very hesitant to jump on any conspiracy theory bandwagon but this shit is just not adding up and cannot be ignored any longer. There have been way too many "accidents" involving the death of elite members of our special forces over the last two years to call it a coincidence. People in dangerous occupations get killed all the time. I was in a relatively low speed/low drag combat arms Brigade, during peacetime. We killed an average of two people every training exercise. Usually our own, but sometimes civilians, or allied forces instead. It's common. No grand conspiracy needed. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:22:29 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:22:29 PM EDT
[#31]
Godspeed and Rest In Peace Frogman.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:22:56 PM EDT
[#32]
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Stupid shit like this is why gun owners look retarded. Thanks, OP. Look, I don't want to start a purse swinging fight but it is rather strange that so many members of that team have died. I'm not screaming conspiracy, maybe its like others have said, they do risky things and sometimes accidents happen. But how do things like this make gun owners look retarded? The same way that 9/11 truth makes people look retarded. I'll agree with that. But I don't see how questioning as to why the increase of accidental deaths among special forces is making gun owners look retarded. It is the suggestion that an Obama conspiracy to kill off navy SEALs makes him sound like another looney gun nut, I believe is what he was saying. R.I.P. soldier. Oh ok. I thought he meant asking why special forces were having accidental deaths was making gun owners look retarded. My mistake. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:24:35 PM EDT
[#33]
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Stats don't matter. Media attention on the stats is what matters when people "feel" things. Yep. For the folks that haven't figured it out, there are plenty of training fatalities every year. The business of wearing a uniform is dangerous. <---Has been involved with a parachute related training fatality. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:26:50 PM EDT
[#34]
How many members of ST6 dead now since the BL raid?
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:28:03 PM EDT
[#35]
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Stats don't matter. Media attention on the stats is what matters when people "feel" things. Yep. For the folks that haven't figured it out, there are plenty of training fatalities every year. The business of wearing a uniform is dangerous. <---Has been involved with a parachute related training fatality. There was a list of annual miltary death of all causes from the mid 90's through 2005 or so, and the numbers never really made a jump despite combat engagement in two theaters. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:29:20 PM EDT
[#36]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. I'd actually be surprised if it was a collision. While a collision is possible, the times I was working with them during training they usually set up good approach patterns. With two people involved it seems much more likely it was a collision. The best planned approach means nothing when two people open too close to each other and become entangled or collide. Hell, one could have opened below the other prematurely. Lot's of variables, and being a training excercise experience could have easily come into play. I doubt all SEALs are super-trained jumpers before hitting the teams. OK -- I've calmed down. I'll agree that this seems like a tragic accident but the SpecOps community has lost a lot of good people the past couple of years. It's is not going unnoticed. I was told several years ago that one Admiral did his best to stop all parachute insertions because he said they were too dangerous. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:30:01 PM EDT
[#37]
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all the media coverage,10years ago you wouldnt have heard about it RIP And this story probably wouldn't get as wide publicity as it has if this particular SEAL hadn't participated in the Bin Ladin raid. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:31:20 PM EDT
[#38]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. I'd actually be surprised if it was a collision. While a collision is possible, the times I was working with them during training they usually set up good approach patterns. With two people involved it seems much more likely it was a collision. The best planned approach means nothing when two people open too close to each other and become entangled or collide. Hell, one could have opened below the other prematurely. Lot's of variables, and being a training excercise experience could have easily come into play. I doubt all SEALs are super-trained jumpers before hitting the teams. OK -- I've calmed down. I'll agree that this seems like a tragic accident but the SpecOps community has lost a lot of good people the past couple of years. It's is not going unnoticed. I was told several years ago that one Admiral did his best to stop all parachute insertions because he said they were too dangerous. They are. Parachuting, especially in the traditional airborne sense, is antiquated and only still practiced in the mil because of tradition. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:32:49 PM EDT
[#39]
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They are. Parachuting, especially in the traditional airborne sense, is antiquated and only still practiced in the mil because of tradition. It seemed pretty useful when Turkey went full retard prior to Iraq. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:33:19 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:35:28 PM EDT
[#41]
let's not forget the nearly 1000 allied troops killed practicing for D-Day.
bad things happen. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:36:38 PM EDT
[#42]
SEAL Teams/ BUDS training has been known to kill men. Unfortunately when you train at that level there are potential consequences. May God be with these men's families and friends.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:38:55 PM EDT
[#43]
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They are. Parachuting, especially in the traditional airborne sense, is antiquated and only still practiced in the mil because of tradition. It seemed pretty useful when Turkey went full retard prior to Iraq. I agree. Traditional airborne may be antiquated, but precision parachute insertion is not. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:39:05 PM EDT
[#44]
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From what I understand injury and death due to training accidents is common in that community. They do a lot of very high risk stuff. Agree Those guys train harder than most other units and militaries fight . John |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:39:46 PM EDT
[#45]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. It was a night excercise. That is a likely scenario, as well as a freefall collision during a HALO or regular jump. Two people tracking and colliding can result in bad news for one or both, particularly if it causes a premature canopy deployment in a tumble combined with unconciousness. No AAD is going to save you from that. The fatc that it was a night jump only subtracts from the "foul play" theory. Night jumps = higher risk. Night jump? Fuck. On a night jump, it's a miracle when people don't run into each other. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 3:40:02 PM EDT
[#46]
Probably happens more than we hear, just because it was of a recently famous group makes it newsworthy now.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 4:50:29 PM EDT
[#47]
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If it was a low altitude canopy collision, it was one or the other's fault. Somebody fucked up. Nothing sinister, just stupidity. I've seen these things happen, they're usually preventable. It was a night excercise. That is a likely scenario, as well as a freefall collision during a HALO or regular jump. Two people tracking and colliding can result in bad news for one or both, particularly if it causes a premature canopy deployment in a tumble combined with unconciousness. No AAD is going to save you from that. The fatc that it was a night jump only subtracts from the "foul play" theory. Night jumps = higher risk. Night jump? Fuck. On a night jump, it's a miracle when people don't run into each other. No kidding. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 5:07:33 PM EDT
[#48]
The SEALS I know take some downtime every now and then. That is when I talk to them. They seem like regular joes, not the 24/7 Chuck Norris on TV types that are portrayed here. Next time I see them I will suggest they organize and demand full OSHA compliance for their workplace safety.
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Posted: 3/29/2013 5:09:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
there is a lot of skydiving done out of Marana, Arizona. They might have been doing some training w/ their HALO/HAHO rigs (?) those rigs are not as "dangerous" as the round T-10's. I've seen quite a few nasty injuries with them. I recall one jump, we had everyone except the BC land w/o problems; he broke both his legs (IIRC). Not true. MFF has many more dangers than static line. Static line may make for hard landings but the failure rate is very low and it is pretty damn safe. Originally Posted By VA Caver:
I was told several years ago that one Admiral did his best to stop all parachute insertions because he said they were too dangerous. True story but it was many years ago and bad procedures. |
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Posted: 3/29/2013 5:11:47 PM EDT
[#50]
The TRAINING these go through is more intense than most peoples entire lives. The unfortunate part of being THAT trained is accidents happen.
R.I.P |
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