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Posted: 9/18/2002 1:35:00 PM EDT
Here we go again... [url=home.post-dispatch.com/channel/pdweb.nsf/TodaySunday/86256A0E0068FE5086256C350037E8BE?OpenDocument&PubWrapper=A-section]Kinloch police officer says he accidentally shot motorist[/url] By Heather Ratcliffe Of The Post-Dispatch A Kinloch police officer said he accidentally shot a motorist during a traffic stop early Saturday then chased the man for 25 miles into Maryland Heights. The officer, Walter Wilson, the former police chief in Kinloch, said he stopped the man about 3:40 a.m. at Martin Luther King Boulevard and Suburban Avenue in Kinloch. He suspected the motorist, a 24-year-old man from Bridgeton, was involved with a drug transaction, Wilson said. Wilson says he reached through the car window to grab the man's keys in the ignition, and his drawn gun accidentally fired. The shot hit the man in the shoulder. The motorist sped away, knocking Wilson to the ground. Wilson jumped into his patrol car and gave chase. Officers from several departments joined the chase, which ended at a cul-de-sac on Galaxy Place in Maryland Heights. Wilson and other police officers blocked the suspect with their cars. Wilson fired several more shots at the motorist, St. Louis County police said. Police did not find any drugs on the suspect, Wilson said. The suspect was unarmed. The man was arrested and taken to St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he was in stable condition. Police did not release his name. After St. Louis County police finish an investigation, prosecutors will decide on charges. Kinloch Police Chief Linda Witfield said Wilson had been placed on administrative leave. Witfield, the former police chief in Wellston, replaced Wilson as chief after he was removed July 19. Wilson works as a detective sergeant at the Kinloch police department. Mayor Keith Conway has refused to discuss the reason for the change. The change came soon after Kinloch business owner Mike Singleton accused the police department under Wilson's command of failing to prosecute Marc "Smooth" Collins, a suspect in a drive-by shooting in April.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:48:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 1:49:23 PM EDT by DarkFuture]
Wonder if they will change the name of the town when this guy becomes owner. Just so long as he gets title to the dirt under the "Law Enforcement Professionals" house after they throw the scum out! [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sadness.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:49:55 PM EDT
at least the cop got home safe that's what matters
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:52:13 PM EDT
this reminds me, has anyone seen any new news about the guy who was shot in the face by the fbi with an M4 ? "administrative leave"? the fact that he fired a few more rounds at the guy after chasing him down makes me think this cop should be in prison
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:55:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By agtm: at least the cop got home safe that's what matters
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I agree with that 110%
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:57:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 1:59:01 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 2:28:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 2:29:37 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Here we go again...
The officer, Walter Wilson, the former police chief in Kinloch, said he stopped the man about [red]3:40 a.m.[/red] at Martin Luther King Boulevard and Suburban Avenue in Kinloch.
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Only junkies and terrorists are out at 3:40 in the morning. He ought to thank the cops for ONLY depriving him of a few rights and not just shooting him to death on sight. That would have been the reasonable thing to do.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 3:15:48 PM EDT
I'm in Maryland Heights. The chase must have ended a couple miles from my home. Interesting...
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 3:20:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: stopped the man about 3:40 a.m. at Martin Luther King Boulevard and Suburban Avenue in Kinloch.
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FWIW, I wouldn't want to be around there at 3:40am... While the officer practiced VERY poor trigger discipline, I don't blame him for being 'cautious'...
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 3:23:15 PM EDT
I would be interested in hearing what the basis of the cops PC to stop was. I would also like to know what type of search effort they undertook along the 25 mile chase route. The entire route should be searched with drug sniffing dogs and metal detectors to determine if the suspect tossed evidence during the pursuit.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 3:34:37 PM EDT
So his gun accidentally went off ehhh! So another words his finger was on the trigger and when he went to lunge forward to get the keys out of the ignition he pulled the trigger and the firearm discharged. Does not sound so accidental to me! I am not one to bash cops, but this police officer really messed up according to the few facts printed in the article. Why did this officer go after the keys himself! If he felt he needed to disable the vehicle why not either call for backup and have assistance with getting the person out of the car, or do it himself. You know the routine, driver turn off your vehicle and toss your keys out the window, then driver put both hands out the window where I can see them, then driver open the car door and step out of the car with both hands on your head, Driver get down on your knees with both hands over your head, driver get down on your stomach with hands stretched out on the ground, then officer cuffs the guy! Yea that takes longer but at least all parties involved are safe and no one gets shot. Bad move on the police officers part, and then the extra shots at the guy later on, what was this officer trying to do, kill the guy so he could not tell the authorities what really happened! Man actions like this, no wonder why people have an attitude towards the police!
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 3:37:14 PM EDT
How come there is never a happy ending. Something like: After the innocent man was "accidentally" shot by the inept cop, he drew his own legally carried handgun and fired 2 shots killing the dumb ass cop instantly. Now that would be a good story.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 3:40:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MinuteMan3:... and then the extra shots at the guy later on, what was this officer trying to do, kill the guy so he could not tell the authorities what really happened! ...
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that would be my guess the cop was in fear for his life: who wouldn't want to kill someone who accidentally shot you?
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:10:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:34:23 PM EDT
The officer, Walter Wilson, the former police chief in Kinloch, said he stopped the man about 3:40 a.m. at Martin Luther King Boulevard and Suburban Avenue in Kinloch.
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Is there any MLK Boulevard *anywhere* that there has never been a shooting... "accidental" or otherwise?
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:38:40 PM EDT
The driver will probably be charged with "bleeding without a permit".
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:38:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: As for being slammed in Jail, it's the norm too. A couple years back a cop in Parma OH ran over a predestrian. No, not on purpose. He still went to the hospital and arrested the guy for jay walking. Once again no blame, that's how he conditioned to react to confrontation. Arrest em then sort it out. Better than kill em then sort it out.
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The problem I have with this is cops RARELY, if ever, are the victims of these policies. The example above has a man JAILED for JAYWALKING(!) because a cop hit him (accidentially or otherwise.) On the other hand, we have people like one agent Christopher Braga of the FBI who SHOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE with an M4, for the crime of wearing a white hat and driving a red car. Agent Braga never saw the inside of a jail cell, and instead was put on paid leave while his negligence (I'll give him the benefit of thedoubt) was investigated. Of course, no charges were filed, the FBI and grand jury finding it a "clean shoot." The fact that Braga was involved in another shooting of an unarmed man a year before seemed to have no impact. Or for another example, just the other day a BATF agent, upset with some teenagers TPing his house (homecoming week) got into his government issue jeep (complete with lights and siren) and chased down the dangerous criminals. Upon them stopping, the BATF agent pointed his government issue handgun at one of the teenager's heads. The agent's BAC was .22% at the time. He WAS taken into custody (imagine that) on the charge of "public intoxication." Not DUI, not reckless endangerment, not assault with a deadly weapon, but "public intoxication." He was then promptly released after promising to appear in court. Hey, i want our cops to go home safe at night, too--but I think they should be subject to the same laws and "procedures" that they subject US to--in fact, by virtue of their poisition, I think they should be held to a higher standard and treated far more harshly--but that's just me.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:44:50 PM EDT
I stand up for cops all the time and stuff like this makes it hard to do. I'm sure there is more to the story of course.(three sides to every story). Hypothetically, what would happen if the victim shot back justifably in self defense? I don't think someone could ever get away with that. But that could happen. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:46:19 PM EDT
Is there any MLK Boulevard *anywhere* that there has never been a shooting... "accidental" or otherwise?
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That's a downright STUPID comment. I doubt there are many MAIN STREETs in this country that have not seen a shooting or two.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:53:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 4:53:52 PM EDT by reconBYfire]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:Only junkies and terrorists are out at 3:40 in the morning.
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The cop was the terrorist and the junkie!!! Tell the people who work second and third shift that they are junkies and terrorists!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:57:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 4:58:28 PM EDT by Aces-and-Eights]
Originally Posted By Zak:
Is there any MLK Boulevard *anywhere* that there has never been a shooting... "accidental" or otherwise?
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That's a downright STUPID comment. I doubt there are many MAIN STREETs in this country that have not seen a shooting or two.
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Look before you leap. It's based on a Chris Rock joke and the irony of it. [url]http://www.blackapolis.com/news/auntdot/mlkstreets.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:58:09 PM EDT
You know what, if this idiotic cop shot me for nothing then I sure as hell would have ran! I mean this guy could have been a nut job in a uniform and guilty or not dead is dead. I usually stick up for cops since they are the ones that have to put their lives on the line and basically eat sh*t when dealing with criminals but come on, accidentally shooting the guy then arresting him because he ran!? Yep this guy is going to be rich and this cop is a Wendys employee.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 6:12:18 PM EDT
i agree, at least the cop is ok. "IN THE JUNGLE, NOBODY'S INNOCENT!!" the coach from beavis & butthead
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 6:23:09 PM EDT
Remain calm, follow instructions, and everything will be ok. Sounds like following those instructions will just make you an easier target. Bwa, haa, haa, haa.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 6:26:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 6:27:20 PM EDT by pcgood]
These are the public servants who in the near future will break down your doors and confiscate your firearms!
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 6:30:11 PM EDT
Hey, I love cops. I hope to be one one day. But, they are still just people like you and me. They are not above the law. Put yourself in the guy's shoes. BANG!(guy gets shot) Guy: Forget about my gunshot wound, Is the cop OK?
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 6:32:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By agtm: at least the cop got home safe that's what matters
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cops arnt always good guys. some police officers shouldnt make it home safely. its a bessing that everyone went home alive, but just cuz he is a cop doesnt mean jack.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 7:03:43 PM EDT
If an assailant ([b]ANY ASSAILANT[/b]) shot me I would have vacated the area too..... Scott P.S. Blindly defending the assailant because he is a cop puts a blemish on the true LEOs. The ones who [b]DON'T[/b] shoot people without reason.....
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 7:06:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
Originally Posted By agtm: at least the cop got home safe that's what matters
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cops arnt always good guys. some police officers shouldnt make it home safely. its a bessing that everyone went home alive, but just cuz he is a cop doesnt mean jack.
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i was trying to be funny i think he should have tried to run the bastard over
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 7:18:51 PM EDT
http://home.post-dispatch.com/channel/pdweb.nsf/TodaySunday/86256A0E0068FE5086256C35003C8092?OpenDocument&PubWrapper=A-section There's a bit more to this story & the town & it's police department. Check out the link for more info.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 5:55:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 6:02:10 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 6:09:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 6:17:14 AM EDT
You need Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to stop someone, not PC. You need PC to arrest someone. I think you also need some type of reason to pull out a gun on someone else. And being suspected of being involved in a drug transaction ain't it. If you have your gun out, you shouldn't be within "arm span" of "the suspect". You should never reach into a motor vehicle. If you need to have your gun out, you probably shouldn't approach the person, ie order them out of the car. Preferably with other officers present. Keep your trigger finger off the trigger, unless you are SURE it is legal to shoot, where you are aiming/pointing at. 25 mile chase, yup he could have thrown stuff out....... Or he could have driven to a hospital, or Police Station, which would have de-escalated the situation.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 6:25:27 AM EDT
In a confrontation last month, Mike Singleton fatally shot Marc "Smooth" Collins, who wounded Singleton in April. Singleton says Kinloch police took no action after the first incident. St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert P. McCulloch says flatly, "That police department should not exist, and if it were my call, it wouldn't."
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Personal feeling here, but everyone with a street name deserves to be shot.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 6:26:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Or he could have driven to a hospital, or Police Station, which would have de-escalated the situation.
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Driven to A POLICE STATION?... A POLICE STATION?... That's the LAST PLACE ON EARTH I would go. Picture driving up to a cop shop with Officer Doofus in tow... All lights running Code Donut and him howling into the radio... You'd never make it to the parking lot alive. Better find a hospital where some unbiased witnesses can be found. Any public place is preferrable to any cop shop.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 6:42:03 AM EDT
Well sir, I think the main point of going to a police station, would be that unlike your unbiased witnesses, they would be armed. So that if the guy chasing you isn't a cop he would be less likely to follow. If he is a cop, he would be less likely to be stupid in front of cops he didn't know, and who may be very credible witnesses, in regards to the suspect and pursuing cop's behavior. I also wonder if the "the gun went off accidentally" was what happened, since when the pursuit eneded there was more gunfire.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 6:58:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Well sir, I think the main point of going to a police station, would be that unlike your unbiased witnesses, they would be armed. So that if the guy chasing you isn't a cop he would be less likely to follow. If he is a cop, he would be less likely to be stupid in front of cops he didn't know, and who may be very credible witnesses, in regards to the suspect and pursuing cop's behavior.
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The Blue Line store is the LEAST UNBIASED place I can imagine. Cops know they can get away with anything as long as only other cops are present. Doesn't matter what name is on the patch. Cops are the second largest group of liars in any courtroom.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:00:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:01:47 AM EDT
The cop was probably shakin the guy down for some free dope and he wouldn't play ball.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:04:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jetlag: The cop was probably shakin the guy down for some free dope and he wouldn't play ball.
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Isn't that the truth?? I am always amazed how cops always seem to have the best dope.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:06:04 AM EDT
Wow, are you full of bias, nice stereotyping. Did you read the article? Did you notice the original numbskull was the only one that shot at the end of the pursuit?? Why was that? I think charges will come out of this, and it ain't gonna be for the guy that got shot. Did you know that most founded complaints against police officers are made by other officers?
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:11:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: I also wonder if the "the gun went off accidentally" was what happened, since when the pursuit eneded there was more gunfire.
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The officer himself say it went off accidentally
A Kinloch police officer said he accidentally shot a motorist during a traffic stop early Saturday then chased the man for 25 miles into Maryland Heights.
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What would he ahve to gain by claiming it was an accident, unless he was makng a cover story for something worse. [red]What could eb worse other than intentionaly shooting him for no reason?[/red]
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Let's think about that. When he was alone with the "victim" the gun "goes off accidentally". It must have "accidentally" gone off a few more times at the end of the pursuit. Because the suspect was unarmed, and none of the other officers fired. If it had accidentally gone off initially, why did it continue to go off at the end of the pursuit? A pursuit of an un-armed man?
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:14:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: What could eb worse other than intentionaly shooting him for no reason?
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For the cop? Shooting somebody at point blank and the intended victim getting away.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:21:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:28:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Did you know that most founded complaints against police officers are made by other officers?
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That only tells me cops get turned in by their compatriots to cover their buddies crooked deals. For example the current fiasco in Dallas over just how many dirty cops are involved with the "gypsum for cocaine" series of bad busts. The Dallas Chief of Police can't adequately cover their asses cause he's already on the fed's bad side for getting caught moving stolen computer parts.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:29:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I have to admit, if I had just been the victim of an unwarranted police shooting i would be somewhat leary of running to the police.
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I threw it out as an option. Part of the problem here is the person doing the chasing is armed and apparently willing to shoot. If you go someplace where there are witnesses, that ain't neccesarily armed, they may just be witnesses to a homicide. I can think of times when people have gotten into stuff with "un-marked" police cars, refusing to stop etc. It changes the perception of the "chasee's" intent when they drive to a PD. Some of the past ones that I have seen the PD that the person fled to took a nuetral view of the pursuing officers actions. And investigated BOTH sides. They also refused to turn over the pursuee to the pursuer.........Something about LIABILITY.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:42:47 AM EDT
god truely loves stupid people. look how many he made.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:42:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Here we go again...
The officer, Walter Wilson, the former police chief in Kinloch, said he stopped the man about [red]3:40 a.m.[/red] at Martin Luther King Boulevard and Suburban Avenue in Kinloch.
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Only junkies and terrorists are out at 3:40 in the morning. He ought to thank the cops for ONLY depriving him of a few rights and not just shooting him to death on sight. That would have been the reasonable thing to do.
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WRONG! I've had a couple of jobs where I didn't get off work until 2 or 3 AM. And now I'm usually up that late, and often out in my car, just because I can, and there's fewer morons at the grocery store at 4AM. By your fucked up and twisted logic, I'm either a junkie or terrorist and deserve to be shot? I'm afraid I'll have to disagree here. -FOTBR
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 8:26:08 AM EDT
uuughh... I think The Mac was using sarcasm.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 12:30:49 PM EDT
OK, on a re-read of everything, you're probably right, the_mac was probably just being sarcastic, and if so, my apologies for caling him kinda fucked up.... Ever have one of those mornings where aboslutely nothing is going right? This was one of those morning.... Remember 2 things: Don't post drunk, and Don't post while pissed off [:D] -FOTBR
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 1:11:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 1:25:01 PM EDT by Arock]
So this morning while I'm reading and posting on this thread, there's a knock on my back door. One of my high school football buddies who just got elected Constable stopped by for coffee and talk. Main reason was to ask me to volunteer to work in his truancy prevention program with the local schools. He figured I'd be a likely candidate since thirty-five years ago he and I got away with more wiseacre stuff than anyone else he could think of. He said they won't be able to put much over on us since we did it all before... Anyway while he's here Miz Arock laughs about being called for jury duty this week. She said two questions the prospective jurors were asked was "Have you had a bad experience with police?" and "Do you mistrust police?". My wife said to her amazement three-fourth's of the prospective jurors answered YES to BOTH questions. She said she just sat on her hands and listened. And my friend the Constable said that's the way most juror pools are these days. Now the small town I live in is conservative, upscale and the juror pool is anything but low-rent. Hell the DA's office even screwed up and brought one of our sitting Grand Jurors in for petit jury (they had to be told who the Grand Juror was and they work with her every week). I am shocked to hear this about my fellow citizens. I don't feel quite so isolated in my views of present day police work as I did yesterday.
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