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Posted: 9/12/2002 4:59:36 PM EDT
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/749692/posts?page=1[/url] When you cant lead ...micro manage
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 5:25:10 PM EDT
(Sarcasm) But I thought SF guys were gods who could do and wear anything they want! (end sarcasm)
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 5:41:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 5:43:06 PM EDT by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 5:57:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:06:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 6:07:32 PM EDT by Sweep]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:15:01 PM EDT
Hey cool!! Dress um up in STARCHED and strac hunter orange with a pith helmet. God knows we wouldn’t want some pot washing pissant NGO to accidentally shoot D troop in the friggin ass.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:15:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Methos: Good, cuz those SF guys from the Army national guard's 19th SFG looked ate-up in those recent photos. Sure the Active Duty 5th SFG sported beards when they were there, but they didnt go around looking like a biker gang as with the 19th SFG. The Rambo look should be left to Hollywood.
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Your ignorance and lack of intelligence oozes out of every other word in what some may call a post. I am sure that you can tell a 5SFG(A) soldier from a 19SFG(A) soldier or a 20SFG(A)with out being told by the trusty media talking head, right? Monday morning quaterbacking should be left to those who are on network television, where it so rightly belongs. Get real. The facial hair, wife beater, et al worn by the soldiers in questions is a function of neccessity. Either they need it or it is not a point of concern because they are engaged in other more pressing matters. Sadly, you do not understand that an enemy body count and tangible results and not fashion sense or AR 670-1 has to do with conquering the enemy on the battlefield. It is a good thing that you are not an officer or NCO (we can only hope), because your mentality is a detriment to the mission at hand.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:47:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BYU:
Originally Posted By Methos: Good, cuz those SF guys from the Army national guard's 19th SFG looked ate-up in those recent photos. Sure the Active Duty 5th SFG sported beards when they were there, but they didnt go around looking like a biker gang as with the 19th SFG. The Rambo look should be left to Hollywood.
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Your ignorance and lack of intelligence oozes out of every other word in what some may call a post. I am sure that you can tell a 5SFG(A) soldier from a 19SFG(A) soldier or a 20SFG(A)with out being told by the trusty media talking head, right? Monday morning quaterbacking should be left to those who are on network television, where it so rightly belongs. Get real. The facial hair, wife beater, et al worn by the soldiers in questions is a function of neccessity. Either they need it or it is not a point of concern because they are engaged in other more pressing matters. Sadly, you do not understand that an enemy body count and tangible results and not fashion sense or AR 670-1 has to do with conquering the enemy on the battlefield. It is a good thing that you are not an officer or NCO (we can only hope), because your mentality is a detriment to the mission at hand.
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[yeap] that says it.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:49:28 PM EDT
Once we were training up for deset storm (My unit was never deployed.) It was an air assult practice. Right in the middle of it a few vans come up right where we are and out comes the media in full force. First off what the hell are these people doing on a training ground? Second they go and talk specificly to all the privates and specialists about what was going on trying to get a statement off of any one. I was asked by a woman in a bright red suit with a camera in my face all kinds of made up crap. A news paper article was posted a week later quoteing every false stero type you could emagine. Imbelish was not even close to the truth. I'm out now why? Because it is more important to do nothing and look good doing it then to work hard and get dirty. After 8 years I was only an E-5 because I worked with the guys under me. After 2 weeks or so in the field none of my guys really looked to standard and I cared less. I felt as an NCO my job was for the health and welfare of my men. When some one would miss a day or 2 shaving I would tell them to at least put a lot of camo on their face to hide it up. Leave it to a draft dodgeing president who has his interns blow him to tell the military they are unprofessional.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:59:33 PM EDT
Damn...this crap again! The only criteria in this war is that they accomplish their mission and stay alive! If beards, long hair, scuffy appearance in general all help them to blend in and kill more Taliban and Al Qaeda while increasing their chances of survival even in the slightest amount...well then that's the right thing to do. They are the best at what they do...they know better than the RA chairborne rangers what is best for them. We should give them the mission and get the hell out of the way.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:03:26 PM EDT
They might as well make the guys get bullseye tatoos on their foreheads. The shot of the guy with no shirt after the asassination attempt made me think that the baggy clothes and robes are probably sorta handy for concealing weapons. Bush oughta make these jerk brass go on daytime patrol with full insignia.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:23:12 PM EDT
Modifying appearance such as growing a beard and donning local garb for the sake building a rapport with the indiginous soldiers and blending into the local population [b]when the mission calls for it[/b] is certainly understandable. However, going around in sunglasses, baseball-caps and sleevless t-shirt sleeves while wearing your TA-50 and weapon is hardly an attempt to fit-in. Sure they can amass a huge body-count while looking like a quasi-paramilitary civilian from the western world, but the same can still be accomplished while in the standard Army uniform. As appealing as the mercenary look can be, they are still soldiers of the U.S. Army and should adhere to the standard.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 7:54:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 7:54:55 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
Originally Posted By Methos: However, going around in sunglasses, baseball-caps and sleevless t-shirt sleeves while wearing your TA-50 and weapon is hardly an attempt to fit-in. Sure they can amass a huge body-count while looking like a quasi-paramilitary civilian from the western world, but the same can still be accomplished while in the standard Army uniform. As appealing as the mercenary look can be, they are still soldiers of the U.S. Army and should adhere to the standard.
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Now that says it all !!!
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:54:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:05:52 PM EDT
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh, we made those big tough special forces guys sad by saying they had to play by the rules too. [>Q][>(][>Q] Do they need a bandaid, or a care package? Maybe a hug? Why are those officers so mean? Please, if these guys are 1/10,000 as tough as most of you guys believe they should be over it in a couple weeks. LOL!
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:12:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:16:10 PM EDT
In combat training or in actual combat situations AR-670-1 goes right out the freakin window if you want to give yourself and your troops/team members the best possile chance of obtaining the best and most practicle training that will eventually save their lives and help complete the mission!!! And if you don't believe so then you are more than likely not of the been there done that crowd and are in no way shape or means in the position to even comment on this subject in a negative or degrading manner. But please by all means keep posting as it does wonder for my BP.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:29:42 PM EDT
Yes, the fella on the left just asked, "Could you please shave" [img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020827/capt.1030460368.afghanistan_xws101.jpg[/img] [img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020904/capt.1031173881.afghanistan_us_xws105.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:30:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: THEY haven't said a word. You and I are discussing it and its the officers and civilians who are crying about it. Another one without a clue...geez
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Hmmm? Well Dr. Clue, that is a good point. If wearing uniforms was a death sentence don't you think they might complain? I mean, they are bad muthas and all, but most people won't just march off to their bloody death. So if it was such a big deal then we would hear something from them. To me that means that they (special forces) don't care, and it's the keyboard ninja's who have their panties in a twist. [:)]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:42:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:56:17 PM EDT
82ndAbn, yes I am typing here with you, but I don't consider myself RAMBO. Why you getting so worked up over it? You honestly believe that once they all start wearing BDUs that they will all die? Or become more of a target than they were before? REALLY? What gets me is when you guys belive that goatees, oakleys, wifebeaters and baseball caps are winning the war. And not the skill of the SF. WTF? If you want to make them "blend in" have them ride camels around. They have my respect and my prayers. But they should dress like the professionals that they are. Hypothetical: Would a dew rag, gold chains and saggin pants be a good dress for the urban MD? Maybe an ER doctor will perform surgery on you wearing his sterile "g-funk getup". It would not have any effect on his performance or skill, would it? Would you like this in your local MD? More respect from the gangbangers?
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 11:18:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 11:59:55 PM EDT
I just saw an interview with some SF personnel. They looked afghani. Full beards, full native dress, they blended in very well (there was also some of the ones whose pictures have been going around, the 'biker redneck in a tank top' guy, and the Tom Green lookalike). They also were complaining about how the general on the ground in Afghanistan was fucking things up. They said that the 82nd was being heavy handed. That they were slowly turning from a liberation force to an occupying force. Of course the brass wants to get them back in the reservation, cant be questioning the brass like that on TV.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 12:19:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2002 12:22:41 AM EDT by AR15fan]
[img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020827/capt.1030460368.afghanistan_xws101.jpg[/img] Ali Babba: "What happened to your sleeves?" SF (wearing hat backwards in tribute to Fred Durst) "I tore them off to show off my shaved arms.....and what did you do with my sunglasses?" BTW: Notice the SF trooper has time to shave off his body hair (hairless arms), as seen in GQ.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 1:14:10 AM EDT
Civilians and 'Most' brass are stupid about war.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 1:29:00 AM EDT
Funny how many people can worry about an SF guy's sleeves when they are in the "rear w/ the gear" or safe at home in the USA. Let them dress how ever they like...they are over there and I am not! I can't believe that anyone on "AR15.com" would be so critical of America's Best. This is the kinda crap CNN would pull of some liberal hippy website!
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 1:33:54 AM EDT
I can understand growing a beard. The natives believe you're not a real man unless you have a beard. It gives them more respect. However, I don't understand the sleeveless shirt or no shirt at all, baseball caps and sunglasses. That sure as hell doesn't make them fit in better. I did hear an interesting comment about the situation. Some military advisor on FOX News was talking about how when the Soviet Union came into Afghanistan, they wore proper uniforms and shaved. It made the natives not trust them and see them as outsiders. Who knows. Maybe our guys over there have found that their look allows them to do their job with the least amount of friction with the locals. It's less of a "military" look at least. USPC40 [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/line.gif[/img] [url=www.nra.org][b][red]NRA[/red][/url] [url=www.nra.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][b][red]GOA[/red] [/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.saf.org][red]SAF[/red][/url] [url=www.saf.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][red]SAS[/red][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/b][/url] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/alabamaflag.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 2:16:54 AM EDT
I care less what the media and armchair experts think. If those doing the fighting feel it helps their mission let them alone. This pissy bitching about nothing could hurt moral and effect the whole spirit of their mission.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 3:25:54 AM EDT
Blending in is one thing, especially if your trying to be under cover. If caught out of uniform by the enemy you will be summarily shot as a spy. Being out of uniform because you want to look like "Fred Durst" would be just plain stupid. That guy that looks (and look like he acts like) Woody Harelson (sp?) is not blending in.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 3:38:59 AM EDT
Roger on the not blending in. In fact, going sleeveless is an insult to the native population. Notice that you've never seen any pics of Afghanis (or any other Moslems) wearing sleeveless shirts. Beards, fine. Long hair, sure. But as soon as they cut the sleeves off the shirts, they IDd themselves as Americans. They might as well be wearing full uniforms with insignia.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 4:21:42 AM EDT
Ok folks before anyone looses sleep over this, what is the final phase of Partisan War? Transfer of command to Conventional forces. The time of needing to try and look like a local, to be Covert passed awhile back. Its the end of the normal "Life" of le petite guerre. Im sure that this order does not effect the SMU Operators(Who have permanent Relaxed Grooming Standards), only the Team guys(who had Relaxed Grooming Standards for the mission only). Lucasf (NOT SF, but 5 years as a SMU support guy, and 1 year as a SFG Commander's driver/interpreter)
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 4:22:54 AM EDT
Y'all are [b]nuts[/b] if you think that we should try to dictate what the guys on the ground are doing to either (1) complete their mission with the greatest possible chance of success, or (2) stay alive while doing (1). If their NCOs and officers are permitting this, then we'd better damn well keep our traps shut! Or y'all could attempt to tell that to the guys with the bared arms, 'Shape up or ship out'! Later when you regain consciousness back at the field hospital.... It may be that those bare arms say all that is necessary for the local hoodlums to hear. I guaran-damn-tee that those guys are intimidating as Hell to the enemy. Eric The(Leave'EmAlone!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 4:28:10 AM EDT
Special Ops Troops In Afghanistan Told To Shave And Wear Regular Uniforms
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[b]"Nuts!"[/b]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 4:52:14 AM EDT
Near the end of the article, it said the concern was coming from the non-governemtal types that were in-country. I think they're afraid that they'll be mistaken as combatants and get whacked. From a distance, all non-Afghanis in baseball hats and Oakleys look alike and stick out like a sore thumb. Maybe the red cross and doctors without borders should be wearing the uniforms!
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:23:32 AM EDT
DAMN, DAMN, DAMN, SHIT FUCK DAMN, DAMN !!!!! had we only dressed properly in Vietnam we cudda won that war !!!!! i am sorry folks for my lack of propper dress 30 years ago, had i worn a proper uniform...., well who knows...........
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:32:48 AM EDT
Well them boys at Concord pretty much wore what they had...and the Brits dressed up in those nice fancy uniforms all spit shined and haircutted Who won.... Pogue Warriors have no business dictating what grunts should or should not wear or run for gear...that is , or should be, the job of the NCOs and Combat Officers... Its the pogues job to get the gear the guys request to them....period... The guys in the rear need to be servants to the guys in the shit...
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:37:38 AM EDT
i don't care if they wear pink tutu's as long as they can find and kill their targets. i'm unconcerned with their uniforms. i only care about the body count.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:48:02 AM EDT
Geez...you REMFs still don't get it do you? Do any of you chairborne rangers really think for one second that these guys all look like that JUST so they can look cool and stick a finger in the eye of military discipline? They look that way for two basic reasons: 1. Most have been in country longer than any other unit. They have been in the shit more than most units. They have lived with the locals since arriving in country. They have adapted to the local culture and customs...which happens to include scuffy beards for the dudes, my friends! This in turn has greatly helped them to carry out their primary mission, that of [b]leading[/b] those same indigenous forces in combat against Al Qaeda and the Taliban...with great success, I might add! 2. They are [b]trained[/b] to blend in with the indigenous peoples whereever they are assigned. This helps them to become "one of the local "guys" sooner and win over their hearts and minds. Finally...some of you bitchers really might have spent some time in the field. Don't you remember what [b]you[/b] looked like and smelled like after a few weeks in the bush? I sure do! Sorta RIPE...huh? I also remember that I really wish I could have stopped shaving then too. Cold water shaves suck! What really disturbs me most in this dialogue is the appearance of envious rage on the part of some of you. I seem to be hearing tones of jealousy in the words written by some. YOU guys that did serve or are serving in whatever branch of the military, should be the ones to lead the cheer for these guys in country...not whining because they don't look as spiffy as the 3rd Infantry Regiment, The Old Guard. There is a time for spit and polish...and a time for looking scruffy. Nobody knows how to win this war better than the Grunts. Its time for the REMFs and sniveling PC bedwetters to get the hell out of the way, shut your traps and let the troops do what we trained them to do. Like I said before, I couldn't care LESS what they LOOK like...just kill the enemy, and come home alive...that's what is important. [soapbox]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:53:14 AM EDT
From the Article: Some reports have said that NGO workers were not happy with the special operations soldiers trying to fit in as it put those workers in danger.
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Ah, yes. HERE'S the reason! Some limp-wristed faggot Non-Governmental-Organization clean-water-and-condoms-type whined about possibly being made to eat a bullet in a war zone. I don't care if they're wearing pink parasols and moive tutus. I want them to WIN! If that means they have to look like "white trash", "bikers", "hillbillies", "gangsters", or any of the other brainless adjectives utilized in this and other threads, then MORE POWER TO THEM! Just a thought though. What if the good general is saying this as a ploy? What if he's simply trying to confuse the enemy a bit? Nahhhhh...... He's just watching his career. [puke]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 6:41:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 6:47:33 AM EDT
Once more with feeling!
Originally Posted By BYU:
Originally Posted By Methos: Good, cuz those SF guys from the Army national guard's 19th SFG looked ate-up in those recent photos. Sure the Active Duty 5th SFG sported beards when they were there, but they didnt go around looking like a biker gang as with the 19th SFG. The Rambo look should be left to Hollywood.
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Your ignorance and lack of intelligence oozes out of every other word in what some may call a post. I am sure that you can tell a 5SFG(A) soldier from a 19SFG(A) soldier or a 20SFG(A)with out being told by the trusty media talking head, right? Monday morning quaterbacking should be left to those who are on network television, where it so rightly belongs. Get real. The facial hair, wife beater, et al worn by the soldiers in questions is a function of neccessity. Either they need it or it is not a point of concern because they are engaged in other more pressing matters. Sadly, you do not understand that an enemy body count and tangible results and not fashion sense or AR 670-1 has to do with conquering the enemy on the battlefield. It is a good thing that you are not an officer or NCO (we can only hope), because your mentality is a detriment to the mission at hand.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2002 7:23:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: Think about it. They're SPECIAL Forces. Why? Because they're special.....
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[:D] LOL!
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 7:34:45 AM EDT
In your typical unit, dress and grooming standards are an extension of discipline. Maintaining these standards in the field is difficult, but attempts are made for various reasons, all important. Among them are: -Maintenance of "standards" to maintain discipline; -Making sure that little orders get obeyed establishes the midset that make sure the big ones get obeted as well; -Hygiene and field sanitation. The US Army pioneered this, and prior to this century, in every war we have fought in until about WWII, we had as many casualties from disease as from enemy action. The US broke this trend, and are still one of the best about this in the world. All that stuff is nice, but it does NOT apply to SF units; they already have levels of discipline, both unit and personal, that far exceed that of your line units. SF units can get a little out there, at times, but their effectiveness is also a function of the amount of flexibility those units are given. I am not critical of the SF troops in those photos. They did look a little rough around the edges, but they are in a war, and they are getting results. They can dress how they want as far as I am concerned, and as far as their chain of command is concerned (at least until recently). They are, however, partly responsible for this mess; they should have realized that some REMF with a stick up their a** was going to see those photos and start launching "directives" soon. Some of the SF folks are probably welcoming the opportunity to return to more traditional modes of dress. The ones that really need to look like Afghans will probably never change, anyway.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 7:50:49 AM EDT
Say, [b]LWilde[/b], now that you mention it - whatever happened to out member that was named the [b]Chairborne_Ranger[/b]? Did he change his name, or what? Anybody? Eric The(SlowToGraspStuffLikeThis)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 10:30:17 AM EDT
Last I heard that guy was running around with an AR and wearing a wifebeater and Oakleys. Just a rumor though . . .
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 10:53:24 AM EDT
Where you been? I haven't seen you in ages! Or maybe I have, who knows, the drugs have really messed me up bad! [:D] Eric The(AndTheVoices!Don'tGetMeStarted!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 11:19:13 AM EDT
Sorry to break it to you, but these guys are not on the top of the totem pole[PERIOD] If their commanding officers feel that it would be better for them to wear standard dress (for whatever reason) they have to obey the order[PERIOD] [sarcastic] I am completly sure that the guys on the ground know more than the wimps and idiots in the Pentagon. [/sarcastic] But in REAL life they have to obey the orders of these "idiots" anyways. What I don't understand is why you can see the power structure so easily when discussing the UN. ie that idiot Kofi from bumfuck africa has no right to tell the USA what to do. But you think that the SF should be directing the war from the ground? Me thinks ya'll been watchin too much Rambo and Commando lately! Don't hold back your true feelings like you were before, tell me how you really feel[:)]
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 11:50:12 AM EDT
Well, here's what I said in the other post about it regarding their look as a "uniform." (It's some of my best stuff BTW): "If those guys were going to a circus war, they would wear clown suits and bozo noses." Sure, let's put them in "Old Guard" blues. Let's give them ceremonial M-14s, a bayonet, and no ammo while we're at it. Another reason to keep the damn media out of warfare. Everybody (read media conscious General Officer types) gets their panties in a bunch over image rather than using the proper tools to fight and win.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 11:57:34 AM EDT
Murphy said it best..."no unit in combat ever passed inspection, and no inspection ready unit ever passed combat" BTW Image matters - just ask any politican. It wasn't the situation on the ground in VN that lost the war, it was the images of burnt kids and gi's zippoing huts that fed the fires of the antis. The problem for armies throught history has been politicians f'ing thing up for the troopies actually in the sh*t. Tango7
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 12:04:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2002 4:51:46 AM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
CNN is using the picture of the Navy spec war guy who just took a round in the shoulder just minutes before and had torn off his shirt following the assasination attempt on Karzai, for its article on this beard topic. Craven assholes at CNN... [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/12/afghanistan.clean/index.html[/url] Made the link "hot." --thebeekeeper1
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 12:09:53 PM EDT
Do not judge all SF on these pictures, right or wrong. A lot of the time the people who dress like this are only attached to the unit i.e. AF Combat Controlers. If they are SF and their team leader who is on the ground with them says it is o.k., then it is o.k. in my book. I have been away from home for long periods of time and sometime these allowances bring up morale for your troops. Generals hate the SF BECAUSE they are special and they take money away from their budgets. I got an e-mail from one of my old roommates who just got back and he stated that senior NCO's and Officers are flying into the AO just to spend the night and get their combat patches. I heard the same thing happened while I was in Saudi. I hate REMF's, always have, always will.
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