Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 9/6/2002 1:04:18 AM EDT
It's funny that we're fighting a war against terrorism in order to safeguard our way of life and to protect our "freedoms" here in this country. But look at the legislation that our Congress passes (i.e. Campaign Finance Reform Bill and the Patriot Act). Our first and fourth amendment rights are slowly but surely being taken from us. IS THIS WHAT OUR GUYS ARE DYING FOR? What's the purpose of this war if our own elected officials are chipping away at our rights afforded to us by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? I've been feeling like this for the last couple of days and I just had to voice my two cents.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 1:12:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 1:15:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 1:21:59 AM EDT by More_Cowbell]
This gets tiresome. In every national war crisis we've experienced a rollback in civil liberties. But people start freaking out like this is unprecedented and dangerous and we'll never have the degree of civil liberties we had before the crisis. You know, it's frustrating to hear all these mewling leftists shriek about expanded police powers, giving police the power to run INS checks for illegal immigrants, and Ashcroft's tribunals, and then they turn around and harp about Bush supposedly letting 9/11 happen on purpose. As if Bush could have done anything without the very powers they start screeching about as impending fascism. Those hijackers weren't doing anything illegal, aside from violating their visas (which isn't even really enforced). With these broader powers, we can now more easily discriminate and stop potential terrorists, ideally.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 1:21:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 1:22:26 AM EDT by urbankaos04]
I don't know about you, but this "rollback" of civil liberties IS something to be concerned about. I mean, hasn't it been proven that the government had all the necessary intel to know that something was brewing pre-9/11 and who the players were? Why do they need INCREASED power to do the job that they seemed to be adequately doing BEFORE 9/11?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 3:18:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 3:20:36 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
[b]"Beware the leader who bangs the drum of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch, and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need to seize the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto a leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."[/b] Seems appropriate nowdays, especially when one looks at the 9/11 act from a different perspective, say one that acknowledges our (US) support of the Taliban (via the ISI and CIA, see transcripts from 'Hearing on U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics,' Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific, House Committee on International Relations Washington DC, 12 Feb. 1998 and 'Hearings of Global Terrorism and South Asia,' same HCOIR Washington DC, 12 July 2000, paying special attention to testimony of Representative Dana Rohrabacher) from their inseption to their downfall for not acceding to demands from UNOCAL and others interested only in construction of oil/gas pipelines across Afganistan, so the US can control the additional natural resources of Eurasia. Wouldn't be the first time, Remember the Maine, The Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor or Operation Northwoods. [green]"It is always a simple matter to drag people along..... All you have to do is tell then they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger"[/green] by Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials. [red]"In examining any crime, a central question must be [b]'who benefits?'[/b] The principal beneficiaries of the destruction of the World Trade Center are in the United States: the Bush administration, the Pentagon, the CIA and FBI, the weapons industry and the oil industry. It is reasonable to ask whether those who have profited to such an extent from this tragedy contributed to bringing it about."[/red] (investigative journalist Patrick Martin) Food for thought, Mike (for those who happen to retain the ability of individual thought)
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 3:40:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 4:00:03 AM EDT by Teltech]
I'm anything but a Mewling Leftist but I've been concerned about expanded police powers since before Sept. 11th 2001. We already had laws in place for any situation that could arise in a crisis such as this. Why pass laws against your own citizens, they are not the enemy? We were warned by our founding fathers to always be on the lookout for anyone who would try to put us under the yoke of tyranny again. We are a free people only if we guard that freedom. If we can't keep it. It's gone. I would say that anyone who isn't concerned isn't paying attention. BTW. our borders are dead open. We give amnesty to illegal aliens, benefits that not even citizens have to illegal aliens. Like health care. But pass laws against our own citizens. How about campaign finance reform. An organization such as the NRA can't even put out information about a candidates voting record 30 days before an election. What kind of crap is that??? Don't get me started.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 4:51:08 AM EDT
Gee Mr Wilson, Actually the families of the victims stand to gain $1.8 million dollars each. If you choose to look at it that way. Look, I don't know that I could believe that even the previous administration would have been involved in 9/11, even with all the crap that they pulled, much less the Bush administration. But just maybe I am believing what they want me to believe. But I will admit that I am alarmed by the "Patriot Act and Campaign Finance Reform". But as we have seen in other countries these are knee jerk reactions to the acts of terrorists, I would just expect the USA to be a little stronger and not let the terrorists cause this level of disruption in our lives. Who really believes that a plane could be successfully hijacked now?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 4:56:18 AM EDT
If they are so concerned about security, why don't they allow pilots to be armed? Why don't they close our borders to allow only those in who have a visa? (like Canada just said they were going to do) Why don't they deport illegal aliens? Why does the INS have less people on staff now than before Sept. 11th. Lots of questions but no answers.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 4:57:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By urbankaos04: What's the purpose of this war
View Quote
To kill the terrorists before they kill more of us. If you want to change the law, get to it: start lobbying, campaigning, etc and stop wasting your time bitching here.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 4:59:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 5:09:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By urbankaos04: It's funny that we're fighting a war against terrorism in order to safeguard our way of life and to protect our "freedoms" here in this country. But look at the legislation that our Congress passes (i.e. Campaign Finance Reform Bill and the Patriot Act). Our first and fourth amendment rights are slowly but surely being taken from us. IS THIS WHAT OUR GUYS ARE DYING FOR? What's the purpose of this war if our own elected officials are chipping away at our rights afforded to us by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? I've been feeling like this for the last couple of days and I just had to voice my two cents.
View Quote
Politicians don't care much about what's right - only what's RIGHT NOW. They sacrifice eternal principles for political expediency.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 5:17:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: If you want to change the law, get to it: start lobbying, campaigning, etc and stop wasting your time bitching here.
View Quote
And here's the infamous Rick tuning in with his usual "Everyone but me is stupid" pablum. Lighten up, Pottsy. Maybe kaos is just bouncing his thoughts off us for feedback. Maybe 20 years from now he'll be elected to Congress, and 30 years from now POTUS and he'll have whipped this country into shape by then. But maybe right now he just needs to confirm that what he suspects is indeed the truth. Maybe YOU, instead of landing on him like a fat cow, could just simply confirm that he is right, and constructively suggest things that need to be done to reverse the trends he sees as disturbing. Maybe not everyone is on the cutting edge of science, technology, politics, French fashion and every other subject in the world ALL AT THE SAME TIME like you are. Maybe you should consider decaf. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 5:32:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Teltech, who says there has to be an organization?
View Quote
True there doesn't, and I try to get the word out whenever I can, but I don't think that [b]anyone[/b] should be muzzled from announcing what a politician (our so called elected representative) is doing. If the 1st Amendment was put there for any reason at all it was put there for this.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 5:32:47 AM EDT
Been reading the writings of Jeff Cooper for 30+ years now, including even his first book on sports car racing (yup[:D]), and have always remembered something he wrote about 25 years ago. Can't quote it exactly, but the gist was that this country was not organized to make it easy for the police to do their job. Rather, the freedoms we have as Americans made it hard for police to do their job, but that was (and is) OK, because that's what makes us free. Made sense to me then, and still does.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:17:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: And here's the infamous Rick tuning in with his usual "Everyone but me is stupid" pablum. Lighten up, Pottsy.
View Quote
Go to hell, Malph.
Maybe you should consider decaf.
View Quote
Maybe you should consider assisted living.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:18:55 AM EDT
Luv ya, Rick. [:D] If nothing else, yer predictable.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:22:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Luv ya, Rick.
View Quote
Not if I can run fast enough.
If nothing else, yer predictable.
View Quote
If nothing else, you're an obnoxious, self-involved know-it-all.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:26:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: If nothing else, you're an obnoxious, self-involved know-it-all.
View Quote
Funny. That's EXACTLY how I've thought of you for a couple years now. [}:D]
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:28:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: That's EXACTLY how I've thought of you for a couple years now.
View Quote
That's a little thing psychologists call "projection." I am most certainly obnoxious (when I care to be) but I am most certainly not self-involved. If I were, I would believe some of the same nonsense that you appear to.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:40:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: I am most certainly obnoxious (when I care to be) but I am most certainly not self-involved. If I were, I would believe some of the same nonsense that you appear to.
View Quote
Now that's odd. Cuz y'all keep telling me I beleive in God cuz I'm a dependent creature and I need [b]something else[/b] to make my life complete. Not the belief system of the "self-involved." Y'all need to get your put-downs straight. [:D]
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:48:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Politicians don't care much about what's right - only what's RIGHT NOW. They sacrifice eternal principles for political expediency.
View Quote
At least that's how the House of Representatives is SUPPOSED to act. That's why they're on two-year election cycles. So that they're always doing what in the immediate interest of the people to get through to the next election. But the Senate is supposed to put the brakes on irrational, populist, feel-good crap and be looking out for state interests. And the Prez is supposed to be looking out for national interests. And the courts are supposed to be looking out for Constitutional interests. The checks and balances is supposed to work [b]as long as each division of Gov't looks after it's intended interests[/b]. The problem today is that EVERYONE (Reps, Senators, Prez, even many judges) are looking out for FEEL-GOOD, POPULIST, GET-THROUGH-THE-MOMENT interests. People have forgotten how this Gov't is supposed to run.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:53:03 AM EDT
Macallan - I've never considered that the HoR (pun intended [}:D] ) is SUPPOSED to be concerned with the "right now." I've always expected ALL branches of the gov't to be able to look beyond today. Not sure I agree with you, but its an interesting concept.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:58:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Macallan - I've never considered that the HoR (pun intended [}:D] ) is SUPPOSED to be concerned with the "right now."
View Quote
That's why they're on such short election cycles - always "HoRing" for votes. [:D]
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 7:00:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By garandman: Macallan - I've never considered that the HoR (pun intended [}:D] ) is SUPPOSED to be concerned with the "right now."
View Quote
That's why they're on such short election cycles - always "HoRing" for votes. [:D]
View Quote
Then should the HoR be comprised EXCLUSIVELY of wommenz??? [}:D] OOOooohhh - that's bad. I'm going DIRECTLY to hell for that one!!!
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 7:20:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Cuz y'all keep telling me I beleive in God cuz I'm a dependent creature and I need something else to make my life complete.
View Quote
Who's "y'all?" I didn't say that. I didn't mention your religious beliefs at all, I was referring to your political and philosophical ones.
Y'all need to get your put-downs straight.
View Quote
"Y'all" need to get your attributions straight.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 8:30:16 AM EDT
The Macallan said, "So that they're always doing what in the immediate interest of the people to get through to the next election." The key phrase is "interest of the people". Do you really think this happens? i don't think so. The whole problem with politics is that the politicians do not follow the will of the people. Haven't you noticed when politicians run for ofice, they expound how they are for this or they are for that. Then we're supposed to vote for the one who best supports what we support? This is all wrong. This is nothing but democratic communism. The only issue a candidate should expound on is that he will do the will of the people. And that he will ensure that ALL the facts are presented to the people so that the people can make an informed choice. We should be making choices of which candidate will/has best follow(ed) the will of the people. Remember, government of the people, for the people, by the people? Who cares what the politician thinks? They're supposed to do what WE say. They made us loose track of that.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 8:49:06 AM EDT
I love this. So many people bitching about loss of rights due to the 'War on Terror' while we have lost many more rights due to the 'War on Drugs', which many here support. Where has all the gnashing of teeth been over that?
And here's the infamous Rick tuning in with his usual "Everyone but me is stupid" pablum.
View Quote
Hmmmm. The pot calling the kettle black. Oops, can I say 'black' without being scolded?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 9:33:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kingme: The only issue a candidate should expound on is that he will do the will of the people........ They're supposed to do what WE say......... They made us loose track of that.
View Quote
BINGO! That and uphold the Constitution. Which they take an oath to do.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 9:48:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: [b]"Beware the leader who bangs the drum of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch, and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need to seize the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto a leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."[/b] Seems appropriate nowdays, especially when one looks at the 9/11 act from a different perspective, say one that acknowledges our (US) support of the Taliban (via the ISI and CIA, see transcripts from 'Hearing on U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics,' Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific, House Committee on International Relations Washington DC, 12 Feb. 1998 and 'Hearings of Global Terrorism and South Asia,' same HCOIR Washington DC, 12 July 2000, paying special attention to testimony of Representative Dana Rohrabacher) from their inseption to their downfall for not acceding to demands from UNOCAL and others interested only in construction of oil/gas pipelines across Afganistan, so the US can control the additional natural resources of Eurasia. Wouldn't be the first time, Remember the Maine, The Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor or Operation Northwoods. [green]"It is always a simple matter to drag people along..... All you have to do is tell then they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger"[/green] by Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials. [red]"In examining any crime, a central question must be [b]'who benefits?'[/b] The principal beneficiaries of the destruction of the World Trade Center are in the United States: the Bush administration, the Pentagon, the CIA and FBI, the weapons industry and the oil industry. It is reasonable to ask whether those who have profited to such an extent from this tragedy contributed to bringing it about."[/red] (investigative journalist Patrick Martin) Food for thought, Mike (for those who happen to retain the ability of individual thought)
View Quote
It's nice to see that there are actually some people that are able to be open to different views about the same situation (not just Mike, but others as well). Too bad this thread has gone "off track" a bit, but I appreciate those who were kind enough to express their views, popular or not.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 10:15:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 10:16:00 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: "In examining any crime, a central question must be 'who benefits?' The principal beneficiaries of the destruction of the World Trade Center are in the United States: the Bush administration, the Pentagon, the CIA and FBI, the weapons industry and the oil industry. [red]It is reasonable[/red]{gag!} [red]to ask whether those who have profited to such an extent from this tragedy contributed to bringing it about."[/red] (investigative journalist Patrick Martin) Food for thought, Mike (for those who happen to retain the ability of individual thought)
View Quote
And THAT'S what happens when you wear your tinfoil hat too tight - it cuts off oxygen to your brain. [whacko]
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 10:47:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 10:49:36 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Anyone interested in the truth can if their willing get any of these books from [url]http://www.amazon.com[/url]: [b]"The War on Freedom"[/b]: How and Why America was Attacked, September 11, 2001 [b]"Forbidden Truth"[/b]: U.S.-Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy, Saudi Arabia and the Failed Search for bin Laden [b]"The Puzzle Palace"[/b]: A Report on America's Most Secret Agency [b]"Body of Secrets"[/b]: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace [b]"The Immaculate Deception"[/b]: The Bush Crime Family Exposed [b]"The Grand Chessboard"[/b]: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives My suggestion would be to begin w/ this book: [img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1883955025.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg[/img] also available from Amazon and written by a former U.S. Air Force intelligence officer and Vietnam Veteran Terry Reed. There will always be those poo pooing my posts (note: my comments are not in color or bold, the rest were quotes from others), but they are the same ones who believe that they can get the real news from ABC, NBC or CBS and will never bother to pull their heads outta the sand until it's too late. My brain works just fine sans tinfoil hat and I use it. Mike
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 5:40:58 PM EDT
You know, if you leave the doors of your mind wide open, all kinds of crap is liable to blow in...............
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 5:43:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedave1164: You know, if you leave the doors of your mind wide open, all kinds of crap is liable to blow in...............
View Quote
...or "if you open your mind wide enough, your brain falls out." [:D]
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 2:46:20 AM EDT
Funny how people cast aspersions with no thought or research on the subject at hand, at least my comments are based on knowledge obtained by effort and a true desire to determined the truth. In addition to the books list above here's another which places another interesting perspective on this subject. [img]http://lookinside-images.amazon.com/Qffs+v35lepOAmzj6p44lrxTOYgPhs1oaDlXQhYfI8U1N­mCWUZ1dbRP460VuNPpCFZv7rqeFibs=[/img] Back Cover: [img]http://lookinside-images.amazon.com/Qffs+v35lepOAmzj6p44lrxTOYgPhs1oH3E4x1X9jLuBZ­ddq+fP1dAizRmeQToYawp1t6OPWBz8nsZnPxacN0BmbWz­w0jxG1JDHxx6gh7B8NsHqNq7pM5wA1+/6vnIxYQUHN1paDv+MSUmEHAKIJfg==[/img] You'll note from the back jacket the statement [b]"The Federation of American Scientist has catalogued nearly 200 military incursions since 1945 in which the United States has been the aggressor."[/b] The display of this information and the subtle manner in which the author disiminates it are quite impressive. While some of the books above probably deal with 9/11 and terrorism in more detail for sure the author's famous mordant wit is on abundant display and the book was quite informative and entertaining. Also available for those interested in learning as opposed to criticizing from Amazon.com. Mike
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 3:59:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: "In examining any crime, a central question must be 'who benefits?' The principal beneficiaries of the destruction of the World Trade Center are in the United States: the Bush administration, the Pentagon, the CIA and FBI, the weapons industry and the oil industry. [red]It is reasonable[/red]{gag!} [red]to ask whether those who have profited to such an extent from this tragedy contributed to bringing it about."[/red] (investigative journalist Patrick Martin) Food for thought, Mike (for those who happen to retain the ability of individual thought)
View Quote
And THAT'S what happens when you wear your tinfoil hat too tight - it cuts off oxygen to your brain. [whacko]
View Quote
Ya, mine's on so tight, I wasn't even surprised to find that a former lobbyist (Karzai) for UNOCAL oil is now the leader of Afghanistan..... AND that the US was for sometime trying to get the Taliban to allow an oil pipeline to be built there. Approx, 6 months after negotiations broke down WTC happened......
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 6:03:03 AM EDT
I agree that mixing politics and business are poisonous for freedom BUT I still don't agree that any backroom dealings or misdealings caused the US to be in any way, shape, or form, wholly or partly responsible for bringing about terrorist attacks of 9-11. I agree we have crooked politicians wheeling and dealing with crooked thugs around the world and within our country every day. Given that though, I still don't accept the conclusion that anyone in the US was actually [u]calculating[/u] on a big terrorist strike in order to coalesce more power.
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 6:15:17 AM EDT
Yeah, Gore Vidal is a real historian. Look, I by no means discount all conspiracies. I believe many to be true, even if I don't have all the facts. But in this age of the internet, we have to be careful, people publish crap on the internet and others take it for gospel truth, now this rolls over to the printed word. Publishers are so desperate to sell books, as sales are dwindling, they don't even check facts any more. If you choose to pursue these therories, fine, I just don't find credible info to follow. The OKC and 9/11 connection is a therory that I see plenty of credible info on, just as an example. luck to ya, dave
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 6:18:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Given that though, I still don't accept the conclusion that anyone in the US was actually [u]calculating[/u] on a big terrorist strike in order to coalesce more power.
View Quote
Well Mac, it certainly helps explain why the USA "Patriot Act" was sittin' there ready to go for several years. All they had to do was dust 'er off, and ram 'er through..... Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after us....[:D]
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 6:21:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thedave1164: Who really believes that a plane could be successfully hijacked now?
View Quote
I do. AB
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 6:33:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By albob:
Originally Posted By thedave1164: Who really believes that a plane could be successfully hijacked now?
View Quote
I do. AB
View Quote
So does the airlines pilots association.....
Top Top