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Posted: 9/4/2002 6:45:10 PM EDT
This is not a name-calling post. I think the reason some posters even used the derrogatory Euro name, is, maybe they have experienced what I've experienced. I have traveled to Europe over the last 18 years to these countries: France, England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Belgium, Hungary, Romania, CIS "Russia"..I know I'm leaving out some stop-overs and 2 day stays. I know many of you have traveled Europe also. A common thread emerges with 5 of the countries I just named. The majority of it's people do not like Americans. I have asked "Europeans", what is it about America they dislike. One of the answers "out of the many", is because "we" Americans feel like we are better than them. I ask, how? Because of our capitalist mentality...we think we own the world. OK, other than we Americans "thinking" we own the world..why the dislike? (I would use hatred, but it's too harsh a word in this forum's climate.) For the life of me I cannot understand it. Personally I have never treated any of the people, of other countries with that persona. I have always gone over-board to be nice, cordial and complimentary of their nation...as soon I speak English..BLAM! I get the "look". I have been with Americans who have been rude and obnoxious when visiting..laughing loudly and demanding sevice like they were in America at the Holiday Inn. The "look" or sneer is not from that...you can feel the deep dislike from many Europeans. When someone uses the term "Eurotrash", it is directed at the perception of what we have felt in Europe. Or even the treatment we have receieved from the European community. Their media, much like ours, is very liberal and socialistic. So, that is one negative you have to factor into the equation. Day after day, there are literally hundreds of Anti-American sentiments in print and on t.v. in Europe. You can read some from today..just go look. Why is a group of nations seemingly so forgetful when they bash the hell out of us, with their outspoken "dislike" for us? If it were not for us they would all be speaking German today and living in ruins and poverty. And yet...they forget? We remember all too well...we sent young American men and women to die for them. We ask for runway to land our jets after they have completed a mission and need re-fueling...they said no. We ask for their support to condemn acts of terror..they said no. Why? But, when their leaders ask for money to help in their monetary crises...they run to us like strippers to a table dance. We never refuse them...always run to their rescue...and all we ask is, verbal support against terrorist??? I echo the sentiment from others who say..we do not need them nor do we need their "advice" on how to run our country. I hear all the liberals chirp about "we need to be like France or Denmark Or Germany in our thinking"...why should we want to pay $4.00 gal. for gas? Why should want a socialist system that entraps us and takes away freedom? Why would we ever want a Godless society with NO moral compass? Why should we lower ourselves to be second-best? We are number ONE for many reasons..one of those reasons is, we don't follow any other nation's pattern of government. Why start now? My own personal opinion is...they hate us just because we are number one. We are only 220+ years old and we ARE the greatest nation in the world. I think it's just a massive case of jealousy incarnate. Think about it...how ungrateful the EU has become, just on the past 60 years. Why? We save their countries from tyrrany and gives millions of dollars in aid, come to their rescue when crisis happens and BLAM! You mention the name AMERICAN and they spew with vile and hate. They buy our music..they follow our fashion...they watch our movies...they cannot wait to buy anything that is American. Yet...you mention our name. Forgive us if we have little cockiness or brashness...we earned it. Eurotrash...is just a word. If they don't like it, maybe THEY should re-evaluate THEIR nations actions not ours. And the next time when they have their a s s e s s on the line and call for help. Hang up. We should never be ashamed to be Americans. Ever. [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:05:11 PM EDT
Why ask why.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:07:15 PM EDT
try bud dry oh wait i think it's an inferiority complex or else they're just a bunch of socialist faggots (can I say faggot here?)
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:09:17 PM EDT
Envy. They don't like being reminded of their second class, loser status.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:13:20 PM EDT
Who cares what they say or think, To hell with them.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:19:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:21:06 PM EDT
"we want to own the world" ok so what...? whats wrong with that.. the Japaonise own lots of american land.. but good for them. maybe its fact that we COULD own the world if one day we wanted to. The fact that the US has saved thier ass and they still dont like us... oh well... maybe it is time to own the world. If they hate the US so much.. stop cashing the checks we send them.. will it ever happen..no. We just need to get used to the fact that we are better than them as a counrty, and move on.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:23:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2002 7:24:01 PM EDT by djk]
Ok, legitimate question here about European women. Why do all 12 to 40 year old women in Europe wear all black and wear those black high soled Frankenstein shoes. I want to know. Anyone?
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:25:36 PM EDT
I posted my opinion for the people who may have been thinking what I was thinking during the Eurotrash debate. Again...we seem to defend the most obvious. I would never call anyone on AR15 Eurotrash..it is left for those who deserve it. We are in a war...those who are with us, need to stand with us. Those idiots talking trash from afar about America. Screw em'. [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:28:28 PM EDT
I would say a more relevant question is "Why do we give a rats *** why Euro-refuse dislikes us?". I personally couldnt care less what the collective European opinion is of us. Say what you will, Im short sighted, Im narrow minded, we have more than enough to take care of here at home. I will say this, we do have a responsibility to the planet and we should keep idiots from ruining the environment and I dont think we have to be nice about it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:29:15 PM EDT
Out of curiousity, just when do you think they started to really dislike us? Do you think it was during the cold war? I'm not sure I do. I would imagine that the wishy-washy foreign policy of the Clinton years (glad they're over, and hopefully there won't be any more!) had something to do with it. Maybe some are also upset that we have veto power in the UN and they don't. Or that we won't go along with some leftist UN idea or tax. --see "unilaterism" Or that we act on our own soverignity rather than what some ass espouses as the "common good of mankind". Personally I hate the UN. They make me more nervous than Iraq or the al Quieda assholes.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:33:01 PM EDT
"legitimate question here about European women. Why do all 12 to 40 year old women in Europe wear all black and wear those black high soled Frankenstein shoes. I want to know. Anyone?" I'm going over there later this fall, and I really hope that it's because they make better earrings!!!! Was it Cracker who sang the "Eurotrash Girl" song? I love that one...
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:35:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Ok, legitimate question here about European women. Why do all 12 to 40 year old women in Europe wear all black and wear those black high soled Frankenstein shoes. I want to know. Anyone?
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Cuz it looks good. Seriously! Ive come to the conclusion that the majority of America shouldnt be allowed to dress themselves. I went to England a few years back to visit some cousins. We had a talk about that, about how you can always pick the Americans out when they are walking around town. And Damn its true, once you start looking for it we stand out. It is part of the way we dress, and part of the way we act. But in reality the people love Americans, they just think we are a tad bit insane. And they dont like the way our government bosses everybody around.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:35:51 PM EDT
One word sums it up... Jealousy!
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:40:40 PM EDT
Just a week away from my annual trip to Europe,over there I'm never "American",they do dislike Americans.I always say" no,I'm from California",they love Californians,and always have some "fact" that they have learned about us here;"Baywatch","Street of San Francisco"ect. and the mood always mellows out.Although,once when I was working a trade show in Germany,an Englishman walked up to the booth and asked if anyone spoke "English",when I replied I was from California,he said "Oh,barely!".I switched into some "surf talk" with some "dudes" and "hang time"!!(hahah). However, when I'm shopping at a show or meet,I dress and pretend to be German.It's a pricing thing,if I came from Germany, I'm just there for the weekend.If I've come from the US,they think I can afford to spend more.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:42:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 7:46:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:28:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NAKED-GUNMAN: I would never call anyone on AR15 Eurotrash..it is left for those who deserve it.
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So what would you call a member who happens to be European and responded to the comment
I'd like to see you live in the Soviet Union in the 1970 for a few years, and then if you survived come here and say we have it bad.
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with
Oh, why should I? See, I came to the U.S. to avoid all that. Seems that was a waste, as the U.S. is at the same level now. Congrads.
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Maybe it's just me, but the originator of that sort of anti-American remark sounds deserving of the "Euro-trash" label.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:32:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Ok, legitimate question here about European women. Why do all 12 to 40 year old women in Europe wear all black and wear those black high soled Frankenstein shoes. I want to know. Anyone?
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why? coz it matches their armpit hair. thats why.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:35:28 PM EDT
JU88, I believe that was "oversexed, overpaid, and over here"........:-)
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:17:13 PM EDT
I never understood Euro-hostility until I worked in the tourism industry. Our clients were about 75% American, the rest Australian, Japanese, and Euopeans. American tourists were the biggest pains, biggest complainers, obnoxious, nasty/mean, most infirm or obese. And the ones from NYC or the East Coast were the worst of the Americans. If these are the sort of Americans Europeans experience the most, then no wonder they despise us. No wonder. I don't blame them at all.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:22:01 PM EDT
Why do Euro-people dislike us?
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There is a whole list of reasons 1. We are much cooler 2. We are much more powerful 3. Our woman shave their arm pits 4. Our woman shower 5. We shower The list could go on forever....
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:28:14 PM EDT
And the british were"under paid,under sexed and under Eisenhower"? I believe lots of the reasons have been mentioned.It boils down to political,cultural and military envy and jealousy. Europe has so much history,millenia.They've all traded the top spot over the centeries.Ruled the world .Spread their culture and language. You know,when they were colonising America,what sorta folks came over.I'd bet if you held a title,had money or were somebody it was probably the last thing you'd want to do.Go over to some god forsaken,savage infected wilderness and start over on a hardscrabble existence. The people that came over here were the second tier.People looking for a second chance or just looking for A chance to be something and and somebody away from the european class system. So here we are.Only a couplea hundred years later.No real history.We're not even really a "people",just a bunch of souls from everywhere,"magnificent bastards[:)]".And now we're the "big dog". We did it our way.Rejected their way of governement and created one thats the envy of the world.We're rich,powerfull,kind and the sorta place that people will literally risk their lives to come too. And we've had to save those very europeans from themselves more than once.The world loves us and fears us,but mostley they just want to be us. I'm sure its alittle embarrassing for "dad".
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:32:23 PM EDT
So More-Cowbell, They hate us because of our tourists? Shit!.......I don't blame em either.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:04:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2002 10:07:38 PM EDT by magnum_99]
Aren't we talking about the same cowardly lionesses that let Hitler run rampant for years before begging us to save their sorry asses? The same lilly-livered sheep that let big bear Russia opress them into communism for 50 years with nary a hint of resistance? What do you expect from an entire CONTINENT of defeated people who NEED to be subjugated to continue to survive. They have been invaded, taken over, and assimilated so much throughout history (second only to the Star Trek universe taken over by the Borg) that they seem to have an ingrained boot-licking gene. The ones that said "fuck that" emigrated here. Maybe a few remain in Switzerland. Of course, give those hun c'suckers half a chance (the Germans, duh) and they'll take over the damn continent again anyway. I say let them (the huns that is) have it. Maybe they can shape it up if they haven't been assimilated by the pansy fruit bags too. I'm drunk you know.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:06:07 PM EDT
Two reasons: Arrogance - Europeans feel that their history and culture make them superior to uncouth Americans, and they resent the greater muscle that America wields in the World, at a time when European influence is in decline. Political Idealogy - Europeans are more Liberal/left-leaning in their politics. A person's politics (like his God) is, more than anything, a sum of that person's values, and Europeans place great value on socialist ideals... in particular, there is a general disdain for grubby things like "profit" and "capitalism". In contrast, Americans shamelessly worship these things. Before any Europeans bitch about this being a narrow-minded American viewpoint, be advised that I am a Brit !!!
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:06:51 PM EDT
OK, I was born in Sweden. My entire family lives over there. So these generalizations sort of piss me off. So lay off a bit. But I do see where some of it stems from so maybe I can explain. The press in most of Europe is VERY leftist. The information that they put out is very skewed. Often information is totally disregarded or the whole story is not told. So the view of the US government that many Europeans have is molded by their press. I can not remember how many times I have had to straighten people out with the "other side" of a story or some little bit of information and suddenly it all comes into focus for them. They are always surprised. They do seem to have a short memory and do forget what the US has done for them in the past. I am always very quick to remind them of this. I always ask, "When was the last time your country brought peace to a nation, or sent food to a 3rd world country?" The European nations are always the ones in the UN asking the US for support in peace keeping missions, they couldn't do it without us. They often seem to lose sight of this fact that the US has given so much for them. If you want nice people who remember this, go visit Normandy some time. Right now, Europeans don't realize what the attacks of September 11th did to the American psyche. They have never had to deal with attacks on such a large scale but at the same time have lived with terrorism for hundreds of years. For the US, this was the first true terrorist attack on US soil in history. They simply don't understand. Their current lack of support does anger me, but give them a reason for US actions and they will support us. Hopefully this helps you all understand. I was raised in Texas, and consider myself a Texan and an American. I'm more than willing to serve and protect the US with my life if necesary. But I also, to a lesser extent, consider myself a European. So please lay off the generalizations. I see A LOT of that on here, and it is somewhat concerning. But to each his own.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:08:40 PM EDT
Aren't we talking about the same cowardly lionesses that let Hitler run rampant for years before begging us to save their sorry asses? The same lilly-livered sheep that let big bear Russia opress them into communism for 50 years with nary a hint of resistance? What do you expect from an entire CONTINENT of defeated people who NEED to be subjugated to continue to survive. They have been invaded, taken over, and assimilated so much throughout history (second only to the Star Trek universe taken over by the Borg) that they seem to have an ingrained boot-licking gene. The ones that said "fuck that" emigrated here. Maybe a few remain in Switzerland. Of course, give those hun c'suckers half a chance (the Germans, duh) and they'll take over the damn continent again anyway. I say let them (the huns that is) have it. Maybe they can shape it up if they haven't been assimilated by the pansy fruit bags too. I'm drunk you know.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:14:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2002 10:29:48 PM EDT by AKADave]
Originally Posted By notack: Just a week away from my annual trip to Europe,over there I'm never "American",they do dislike Americans.I always say" no,I'm from California",they love Californians,and always have some "fact" that they have learned about us here;"Baywatch","Street of San Francisco"ect. and the mood always mellows out.Although,once when I was working a trade show in Germany,an Englishman walked up to the booth and asked if anyone spoke "English",when I replied I was from California,he said "Oh,barely!".I switched into some "surf talk" with some "dudes" and "hang time"!!(hahah). However, when I'm shopping at a show or meet,I dress and pretend to be German.It's a pricing thing,if I came from Germany, I'm just there for the weekend.If I've come from the US,they think I can afford to spend more.
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I will agree with you there, I dont consider California part of America. Too many socialists for my taste. Present company excluded of course. Like my ol' pappy used to say "I wouldnt piss on Europe if it were on fire!"
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:27:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By THellURider: OK, I was born in Sweden. My entire family lives over there. So these generalizations sort of piss me off. So lay off a bit. But I do see where some of it stems from so maybe I can explain. The press in most of Europe is VERY leftist. The information that they put out is very skewed. Often information is totally disregarded or the whole story is not told. So the view of the US government that many Europeans have is molded by their press. I can not remember how many times I have had to straighten people out with the "other side" of a story or some little bit of information and suddenly it all comes into focus for them. They are always surprised. They do seem to have a short memory and do forget what the US has done for them in the past. I am always very quick to remind them of this. I always ask, "When was the last time your country brought peace to a nation, or sent food to a 3rd world country?" The European nations are always the ones in the UN asking the US for support in peace keeping missions, they couldn't do it without us. They often seem to lose sight of this fact that the US has given so much for them. If you want nice people who remember this, go visit Normandy some time. Right now, Europeans don't realize what the attacks of September 11th did to the American psyche. They have never had to deal with attacks on such a large scale but at the same time have lived with terrorism for hundreds of years. For the US, this was the first true terrorist attack on US soil in history. They simply don't understand. Their current lack of support does anger me, but give them a reason for US actions and they will support us. Hopefully this helps you all understand. I was raised in Texas, and consider myself a Texan and an American. I'm more than willing to serve and protect the US with my life if necesary. But I also, to a lesser extent, consider myself a European. So please lay off the generalizations. I see A LOT of that on here, and it is somewhat concerning. But to each his own.
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The reaction to 9/11 is pretty typical when the US is attacked. They (Europe in general) really dont understand that this is the first time the US as a country has ever been attacked on its soil. Another factor is pretty much evident from our history...we-do-not-take-shit-from-ANYBODY! Americans have been accused of being weak, soft, cowardly etc. Once riled up we are very formidable. Take a look at our history and you will see us beating the odds many many times. Europe may have been dealing with terrorism for a long time but thats the point, they have been enduring it and not beating down the scum that perpetrate this stuff. Sorry to break with their tradition but thats not the US style. Maybe thats what they hate about us, the fact that we feel that if we put our mind and might to it we can accomplish anything! As far as Im concerned its time for a Near Extinction Event in the Mideast and were just weak, soft cowards to do it! Sorry for the rant.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 3:40:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 3:40:41 AM EDT by shamayim]
One other reason to add to the pot. America was settled by those that Europe considered trash. The rich and powerful didn't come here. The poor and those considered beneath contempt were the ones who got on those boats and made the trip. And what happened? That "trash" made their new country into the strongest, most free, most affluent nation in the world. What do the Euros do? They denigrate our culture, while gobbling up our films and TV shows. They call us money hungry, while buying up (or trying to) our corporations. I could go on and on, but you get the message. Personally, I have no beef with Europeans, and if they've got one with me because I'm American, that's their problem. In the meantime, I don't buy Glocks, H&Ks, Walthers, etc,etc. I make it here. I'll spend it here. Y'all have a good one [:D]
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 4:35:44 AM EDT
Why? Simple. Because we're BETTER than them, and they KNOW it! ...and no, I'm not being a smartass in the least...
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 5:32:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AKADave: The reaction to 9/11 is pretty typical when the US is attacked. They (Europe in general) really dont understand that this is the first time the US as a country has ever been attacked on its soil. Another factor is pretty much evident from our history...we-do-not-take-shit-from-ANYBODY! Americans have been accused of being weak, soft, cowardly etc. Once riled up we are very formidable. Take a look at our history and you will see us beating the odds many many times. Europe may have been dealing with terrorism for a long time but thats the point, they have been enduring it and not beating down the scum that perpetrate this stuff. Sorry to break with their tradition but thats not the US style. Maybe thats what they hate about us, the fact that we feel that if we put our mind and might to it we can accomplish anything! As far as Im concerned its time for a Near Extinction Event in the Mideast and were just weak, soft cowards to do it! Sorry for the rant.
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I pretty much said that didn't I? Just checking.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 5:47:20 AM EDT
BOth of my parents came from Europe, I am so glad, I was there in the 70's they have llost it again they are sheep. G*d it scares me to think of that, I am a Highlander, when the men turn into sheep.....
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 9:01:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By THellURider:
Originally Posted By AKADave: The reaction to 9/11 is pretty typical when the US is attacked. They (Europe in general) really dont understand that this is the first time the US as a country has ever been attacked on its soil. Another factor is pretty much evident from our history...we-do-not-take-shit-from-ANYBODY! Americans have been accused of being weak, soft, cowardly etc. Once riled up we are very formidable. Take a look at our history and you will see us beating the odds many many times. Europe may have been dealing with terrorism for a long time but thats the point, they have been enduring it and not beating down the scum that perpetrate this stuff. Sorry to break with their tradition but thats not the US style. Maybe thats what they hate about us, the fact that we feel that if we put our mind and might to it we can accomplish anything! As far as Im concerned its time for a Near Extinction Event in the Mideast and were just weak, soft cowards to do it! Sorry for the rant.
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I pretty much said that didn't I? Just checking.
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Yes and no. I point out that this is the first real substantive attack of any kind on US soil since it became a country (excluding the war for independence of course). You said first terrorist attack, we have had those before but not this devastating. My post has that "laughing loudly" American rudeness to it as well. Do they really frown on loud laughing in Europe? Those people are sicker than I thought.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 9:46:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 9:49:29 AM EDT by THellURider]
Originally Posted By AKADave: Yes and no. I point out that this is the first real substantive attack of any kind on US soil since it became a country (excluding the war for independence of course). You said first terrorist attack, we have had those before but not this devastating. My post has that "laughing loudly" American rudeness to it as well. Do they really frown on loud laughing in Europe? Those people are sicker than I thought.
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No, what other terrorist attacks have we had on US soil, excluding OKC? Yes they did try to bomb the WTC but that was pretty much a wash. And, I don't know what you're talking about when you say "laughing loudly". I'm not trying to defend them, just trying to explain a little of their attitude. I thought I was being pretty level headed. Just seems a lot of these posts are way too hostile considering. In no way do I agree with most europeans. I've been wanting someone to get rid of Saddam for years for example. How about just having an intelligent thread on the topic instead of slandering everyone with a wide brush? Is that so difficult? (I'm not saying AKADave is doing this btw) Hell, I love the Israelis for putting their foot down like they do. Both sides in that conflict have problems but in the end Israel is more in the right, so when I hear they assasinated some PLO leader with a hellfire missile from a Cobra chopper, I love it. They got balls! Europe is too dainty and pacifist for me. But at the same time, you have to try to see the other side as well.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 10:03:09 AM EDT
[b]Why do Euro-people dislike us?[/b] It is their perception that we are resisting the notion of a world socialist government. Once they realize that we are the behind the scenes leader in the movement, everything will be ok....
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 10:37:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By THellURider:
Originally Posted By AKADave: Yes and no. I point out that this is the first real substantive attack of any kind on US soil since it became a country (excluding the war for independence of course). You said first terrorist attack, we have had those before but not this devastating. My post has that "laughing loudly" American rudeness to it as well. Do they really frown on loud laughing in Europe? Those people are sicker than I thought.
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No, what other terrorist attacks have we had on US soil, excluding OKC? Yes they did try to bomb the WTC but that was pretty much a wash. And, I don't know what you're talking about when you say "laughing loudly". I'm not trying to defend them, just trying to explain a little of their attitude. I thought I was being pretty level headed. Just seems a lot of these posts are way too hostile considering. In no way do I agree with most europeans. I've been wanting someone to get rid of Saddam for years for example. How about just having an intelligent thread on the topic instead of slandering everyone with a wide brush? Is that so difficult? (I'm not saying AKADave is doing this btw) Hell, I love the Israelis for putting their foot down like they do. Both sides in that conflict have problems but in the end Israel is more in the right, so when I hear they assasinated some PLO leader with a hellfire missile from a Cobra chopper, I love it. They got balls! Europe is too dainty and pacifist for me. But at the same time, you have to try to see the other side as well.
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I wouldnt call the first WTC attack a wash, they did massive damage and injured many people. It produced the desired affect, it created terror. I wasnt sure what you meant by the "Laughing loudly" comment either so I was wondering if they literally didnt like Americans to laugh out loud in public...seemed weird to me but hey they are a different culture. As far a the violent attitude, I would say that there is a breaking point and some in our society are reaching it. Defending hearth and home is a very personal and anger evoking subject/experience. Im kind of with you on the Israel/Palestine thing, the Israelis/Jews were given that land long before the 1940's, you have to go back to biblical times. They have a right to defend their home. People also forget that there never was a Palestine state. The Israelis are not without their warts too. In 1967 they blatantly attacked a US ship called the Liberty. They killed 39 and wounded a lot more. They knew it was a US ship and they tried to destroy it. Im still not happy about that and I feel that if they had the opportunity they would have killed everyone on board just to try and cover it up. They are not that innocent in this conflict.
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