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Posted: 9/3/2002 5:13:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 5:14:28 PM EDT by thedave1164]
[url]http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1028186246464&p=1012571727088[/url]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 5:17:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2002 9:05:23 AM EDT by Redmanfms]
Don't we have a Eurotrash moderator?[}:D] I wonder what her take is?[>(] Edited to add smilies because [i]some[/i] people are a little touchy.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 5:18:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 5:19:21 PM EDT by madmedic]
Majority of Americans polled: "[b]What majority of Europeans think, don't mean shit[/b]"
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:24:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:25:57 PM EDT by WX]
They're right. We do need to change our foreign policy. Let them take care of their own problems. Bosnia comes to mind. Stop sending them money hand over fist. No more support to the UN, move them to Paris or something. Bring the troops home from Europe. Lots of ways to tone down our presence.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:31:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:44:06 PM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:42:39 PM EDT
There is no reason for the US to give a rat's anus about anything the socialist cowards in Europe think. They talk a lot and do little. They are ungrateful to the country that saved their pansy asses from Hitler. They are ungrateful to the country that gave until it hurt to rebuild the place. They forget who defended them from the Russian Bear. They appeased themselves into WWII and they will appease themselves into WWIII. Screw 'em!!! The only thing the US did that contributed to 9/11 stated in '73 when wewe didn't crush OPEC when they started the war with US. Every attack since has just made it worse. Nukes are in order!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:48:46 PM EDT
Maybe we should just invade Europe too. That would teach those damn socialists.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:52:29 PM EDT
Why invade them? We have whipped their ass multiple times in the past. Just ignore them and stop propping them up. Invade the Middle East, starting with Arabia. THEY are the root of 9/11!
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:55:58 PM EDT
[b]tatjana[/b], if the European community thought the way that you do, there would never have been a necessity for the creation of such a word as 'Eurotrash', am I right? But they apparently do not share your views at all. 'Tis a pity. Just look at the changing demographics in Europe! What the Turks failed to do in three separate invasions of Europe over three centuries (1480, 1525, 1683), has been almost accomplished in one generation! What? Turks at the Gates of Vienna, again? Nope. Turks in Edinburgh, Scotland. In Dublin, Ireland. In Cardiff, Wales. Is that not an invasion, with a small 'i'? So it will not be long now before Christian, Western, Europe will be speaking a strange new tongue, and worshipping a strange new god. And Suleiman will replace Charlemagne, as the true patriarch of Europe. Eric The(MarkMyWords)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 8:13:29 PM EDT
Tat, Just what country in europa can you carry ANYWHERE you wish? If this country does not have your respect why are you here? We do not need another voice that complains and does nothing. We have many of those already. I ask only for an explanation and not an outpouring of emotion.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 8:18:35 PM EDT
You wrote a lot in addressing your points, so I'll choose just a few.
Originally Posted By tatjana: Terrorists have always been around. Europeans have been dealing with them for a long time,
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Yes they have been "dealing" with them for a long time. That's partly why terrorists are still big problem - people want to "deal" with them rather than destroy them like we did with the Nazis. Chamberlain wanted to "deal" with Hitler. Patton wanted to kill him. We now know which solution was better. If by "dealing with" the terrorists you mean "suffering under their attacks", again that's part of the reason terrorism thrives, because sheeple are willing to suffer them rather than use all means necessary to eradicate them. Germany and the rest of the EU is a perfect example - they won't assist us or provide information on the 9-11 terrorists like Zacharias Moussoui or anyone else here because he faces a possible death sentence here. THAT is unacceptable for the EU. So terrorists are protected and thus enabled, thank you very much EU.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 8:24:43 PM EDT
Just one thing: Tat, I have to make a countering point on one thing you said:
I won't lay it all on Clinton, or his administration, so much as him as a product of the times. Soft. Naive. Blind.
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Clinton is neither naive or blind. Maybe not soft, either. Quite the contrary, he's among the most intelligent and well educated (and well travelled) people who ever became President, no matter what his morals and motives were. That's the point. His motives. Clinton has NEVER been a fan of the Great American Dream as we know it. He's a globalist and a New World Order freak. He has a socialist mindset, but only to the extent that he wanted to be the head socialist. Of course he would not want to have to act like the peons. Executive privilege and all. Clinton pursued a number of policies that were carefully designed to reduce the United State's lead over the rest of the world in terms of military, political, and economic power. The point was to try to bring us one step closer to equalization with the world average (by bringing us down rather than the rest up) so as to make it that much easier to implement one world government and a total chokehold on real freedom. He pursued this by many means, including giving China our nuclear weapons technology (he should have hung for that, by law!) and even by indulging his own base instincts for carnal pleasure and deliberately getting caught, which reduced respect for the office of President worldwide, thereby reducing respect for America worldwide. Just one small step for the New World Order. Clinton was (and still is) a deadly tricky and clever bastard. Look out for his wife, too. She's completely in the same boat with him and if she gets to be President, she'll continue his dastardly work. Underestimating Clinton has always been a mistake. He's proven that well enough. He has an agenda and it's not what we'd call freedom, American style. And I hate the very air he breathes. CJ
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 8:25:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tatjana: Let's face it, the Clinton administration was awfully weak in foreign policy, like Carter before him, he inspired assault. The United States under his command- or at least the leadership thereof- seemed to lack a certain strength. It certainly lacked a moral center. Weakness inspires aggression in my view, and for some reason the United States spent most of the Clinton years muscling its own citizens, and spending a lot of time showing them "who was in charge." I want to linger on that quote. "We had to show them who was in charge." That's Reno, by the way. She said it twice. Once to justify the use of force in Waco. Once to justify the ninja snatch of the Cuban alien. Show them who is in charge.
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I agree
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:11:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tatjana: Terrorists have always been around. Europeans have been dealing with them for a long time, probably more substantially than the United States in past, at least until the first major air piracy string during the Carter administration. But the United States has taken a part, rather a subtle one, in creating them. Part of the reason is the burning need, in the face of, or the wake of, the Cold War, to avoid accountability for foreign policy decisions- to send the natives to do the job the United States wants done, and then act surprised, after leaving them to their own devices despite promised support, that they might be a little ticked off- and well armed.
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If you are referring to Bush Sr. abandonment of the Kurds and Shiites at the end of the Gulf War, then I would agree. What Bush Sr. did will be a stain on our nation for quite some time to come. However, I have a difficult time understanding the reasoning behind why anyone would be upset having been left to their own devices. Who, specifically, are you referring to?
Let's face it, the Clinton administration was awfully weak in foreign policy, like Carter before him, he inspired assault. The United States under his command- or at least the leadership thereof- seemed to lack a certain strength. It certainly lacked a moral center. Weakness inspires aggression in my view, and for some reason the United States spent most of the Clinton years muscling its own citizens, and spending a lot of time showing them "who was in charge." I want to linger on that quote. "We had to show them who was in charge." That's Reno, by the way. She said it twice. Once to justify the use of force in Waco. Once to justify the ninja snatch of the Cuban alien.
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This is true. It just goes to show how easily trusting Americans can be fooled.
What happened to the subtle and professional panache of U.S. action? I'm fond of saying that in the Hoover era (despite it's faults) Gonzales and Koresh would have been quietly snatched by a guy in an overcoat and a fedora hiding in a potted plant in the mall. No media. No crowd. No ninjas. No automatic weapons pointed at children. No incinerated people.
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Like how the FBI captured Dillinger?
Where are the experts? Where are those deadly professionals, those that operate in threes and fours and fives, that cuddle up close to those that would do us harm and spill their blood in almost ritualistic sanctity? Are we so addicted to push-button war that we have lost the courage to spill blood with our hands, not CRTs.
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No, what happened is Carter emasculated the CIA, limiting their ability to perform certain operations overseas. We have many people with the will, I'm sure of that, but their hands are tied.
I keep coming back to that basic change in U.S. leadership over the last decade when I wonder to myself why the strongest country in the world seems powerless in the face of a rag-tag bunch of (admittedly well organized and professional) fanatics hiding in caves. Too busy trying to show it's own citizens "who's in charge" I suspect. Why the Napoleonic complex? You have a big red button that will end life on the planet if you press it. Why pound on your own?
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You act as if the average citizen has anything to say about it. This is something we need to fix, that's for sure.
It's pretty hard, as an outsider, to respect a country that seems to have little regard for its own citizens.
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So, what you're saying is any given administration constitutes "the country?" I'm sure you are not as naive as that. Granted, we are idiots for voting Clinton in twice, but that isn't necessarily a reflection on our entire nation.
Even so, and as it would be easy to say that it's the "fault" of the United States for: 1. Sending too much to Israel. 2. Sending too little to Israel. 3. Drinking too much oil. 4. Drinking too much booze. 5. Eating too much fat. 6. Eating too much electricity. 7. Being too powerful. 8. Not being powerful enough. 9. Not worshipping the right deity. 10. Not worshipping any deity. That's all too easy. Far too easy. It's also wrong in my view.
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Yes it is.
That said, being an imperial power (and let there be no doubt, the United States >IS< an empire, like it or not) it's time for the country to ACT like an imperial power. The United States is inspiring all the hatred of being a powerful world influence, but seems reticent to take up that gauntlet, wield it, and enjoy the benefits thereof.
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Based on your previous posts, I know you are of the belief that the United States is an empire, but I think you are making a mistake in thinking that. The United States does not concour nations for the sake of obtaining land and natural resources. This is what empires do. This is what empires have always done. The United States uses its resources to influence other nations. This is simply business. We buy what we want. An example: If the United States were an empire, do you not think we would own all the Middle East oil by now? If the US were an empire, would we give up our bases in the Philippines voluntarily? I think not. The Turks had an empire, the British, the Dutch, the French, but the US is more interested in business. We have acted as an empire on at least two occasions, the Spanish-American War and the Banana Wars, but I think we learned from our mistakes and came to our senses. We were never good at international subjugation. If you are saying we are an Empire for supporting certain regimes during the Cold War, especially in Latin America, then you would be redefining the meaning of the word empire. Again, we bought influence, perhaps we supported a coup or two, but the qoal was to squelch Communism, which is to the benefit of all the Western World.
Helplessness and naivety. That's what offends me.
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Me too.
That's what offends me. That's what makes me shake my head. The blind, unarmed rape victim.
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Yep.
Raise the sword and point it in the right direction. Not at your heart. Not to spill your own blood, or those of your sons and daughters, but the blood of those who would strike your sons and daughters. It should run red in the streets. Why hasn't it?
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Because if it did people would accuse us of being an evil empire, present company included (at least, the empire part.) Seriously, I hope we have a plan. Everything in due course.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 1:41:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By madmedic: Majority of Americans polled: "[b]What majority of Europeans think, don't mean shit[/b]"
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I correct you "Less than shit"
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 1:49:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 1:51:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2002 1:54:36 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 2:59:31 AM EDT
I heard by radio broadcast, a session in Johannesburg about intervention in Irak dicussed by EU foreign-prime ministers. My impression, as European, is that some people is cheating using words. I see 2 options: opt nr. 1) Saddam can't get mass destruction weapon. So why USA should put money, effort, resources and american lives at risks? And why EU should bring a weak economy into a war and to risk their business? 2) Saddam can get mass destruction weapon. IU remind to all the ar15.com brotherhood that thi man (Saddam) already used mass destruction weapon against his enemy (Iran) and against his own population. In this case if Eu are ignoring this facts or don't have evidences but USA have them, USA should publish them, and so doing FORCE the EU public opinion that they are under a real menace. In case Eu leaders have such evidences, USA should publish evidences and denuonce such a criminal behaviour by Eu leaders. I remind to my EU comrades, that sleeping with the devil will not bring to santity: Hitler was a lesson that maybe EU leaders, for the blind interests of their countries, are not willing to learn. I guess that when mr. Saddam Hussein will get mass destruction weapon will be too late for any discussion and the interest will be of much less importance...
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:08:14 AM EDT
[b]Originally posted by tatjana: First off, my take on your comment is that it's rude and out of line. I shouldn't need to remind members that personal attacks (Eurotrash being among those comments I would consider a personal attack) are out of bounds. Redmanfms: Check your IM please.[/b] You have got to be kidding !!!!! Is this damn place getting so fucking PC that a comment like EUROTRASH is out of line ????????? And as for you tat, if this offends you, I would suggest you need to to grow up and realize that words are just that...WORDS !!!! DAMN This shit really pisses me off !!! As a response to the main topic... To the europeeons who don't like us... we don't want you, we don't need you and we don't give a SHIT what you think or say about us. So next time you NEED us to come save your sorry asses, too bad, fuck off die and rot.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:25:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: [b]Originally posted by tatjana: First off, my take on your comment is that it's rude and out of line. I shouldn't need to remind members that personal attacks (Eurotrash being among those comments I would consider a personal attack) are out of bounds. Redmanfms: Check your IM please.[/b] You have got to be kidding !!!!! Is this damn place getting so fucking PC that a comment like EUROTRASH is out of line ????????? And as for you tat, if this offends you, I would suggest you need to to grow up and realize that words are just that...WORDS !!!! DAMN This shit really pisses me off !!! As a response to the main topic... To the europeeons who don't like us... we don't want you, we don't need you and we don't give a SHIT what you think or say about us. So next time you NEED us to come save your sorry asses, too bad, fuck off die and rot.
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Spectre, Eurotrash was a term directed at a certina person, Tatjana. So no in that use it isn't right. If it had been Eurotrash as a general term I doubt it would be a problem. But it seemed to be directed at 1 person, and that wasn't nice. On the other hand how many debates have we had on this site asking if our support of Israel, the royal family in Saudi Arabia etc. caused others to resent us. While I believe that people are responsible for their own actions and there is no excuse for the WTC attack, the attack on the USS Cole or any other terror attack. We must every once in a while take a look at our own actions to a take into account how they effect other people/countries.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:25:47 AM EDT
Here's some words that aren't just words Spectre. I don't mean to throw a dart at you because you aren't the only one who has opened up. Tatjana has been specifically called Eurotrash in this thread and has expressed her offense to it. It's not about being politically correct. It's about demonstrating some fundamental respect. The statement was not about Europeans in general, it was directed specifically against Tatjana as a person. I also ask that the other Staff and Mods who have posted in this thread remember current conversations taking place elsewhere and show respect for what is taking place here. Talk about it civilly. Argue. Rant. But don't take it to the gutter in the name of being anti-PC. That's not being anti-PC, rather just downright disrespectful.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:30:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tatjana:
Originally Posted By Redmanfms: Don't we have a Eurotrash moderator? I wonder what her take is?
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First off, my take on your comment is that it's rude and out of line. I shouldn't need to remind members that personal attacks (Eurotrash being among those comments I would consider a personal attack) are out of bounds. Redmanfms: Check your IM please. Blah, Blah, Blah I wish I was American.
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Honestly, I really don't give a rat's ass what you think about anything. I used to respect you and was simply poking fun at you, but you had to give a didactic, righteously indignant response. Please. You know, I really didn't need your pathetically stupid (and misguided) harangue about Clinton's and Carter's foreign policies. If anything, you should see their sycophantic ass-kissing to Europeans as a good thing. Grow some thicker skin.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:39:22 AM EDT
I fully understand that the comment was directed at tat. My point is SO WHAT !!! If someone calls me ANYTHING on this board or any other, I could'nt care less. They are simply words. Words which are deemed offensive, so those words must be silenced. If anyone here is offended by what some anonymous person says to them or about them on an internet board, they have some serious issues. I have no problem with tat, but the people on this board really need to lighten up and take it for what it really is. As far as respect goes, I was always taught that respect is earned, not given, and just how does one earn respect for what they type on an internet board ???
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:43:46 AM EDT
I have also heard treat others like you would like to be treated. I know it's old fashioned.......
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:52:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: I have also heard treat others like you would like to be treated. I know it's old fashioned.......
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Very true. I don't like people thinking they have to pretend they are walking on crystal so as not to offend me. I made a comment as a joke, she doesn't like it. Boo- ffing- hoo.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 8:58:59 AM EDT
Then add a "smiley" I'm sure it would've been percieved different that way. Sometimes when you go "all imbroglio" people have a tough time determining where reality ends, and the sarcasm and irony start.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:03:34 AM EDT
tatjana: you have the analogy wrong. The US isn't the rape victim, they are the raper. What the terrorists did was fight back(albeit wrongly- It would be like a rape victim tying up and then torturing a raper, and then cutting off his penis. yeah, its wrong to do that, but it does make sense.)
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:12:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: I fully understand that the comment was directed at tat. My point is SO WHAT !!! If someone calls me ANYTHING on this board or any other, I could'nt care less. They are simply words. Words which are deemed offensive, so those words must be silenced. If anyone here is offended by what some anonymous person says to them or about them on an internet board, they have some serious issues. I have no problem with tat, but the people on this board really need to lighten up and take it for what it really is. As far as respect goes, I was always taught that respect is earned, not given, and just how does one earn respect for what they type on an internet board ???
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I agree with you in principle Spectre, but whether or not you or anyone else are unaffected by who is called what (and how that really should be the overriding philosophy), there is a Code of Conduct that overrides both yours and mine own views in this regard. [b]7) No personal attacks towards ANYONE. If you have a problem with someone, then take it offline with them. If it's with a member of the staff or a moderator, then contact someone from the Senior Staff. Attacking a person, ANY PERSON, in a non-joking manner (clearly visible as a joke) will not be tolerated. This includes provoking someone into an attack.[/b] Serious issues or not, I also questioned the statement when I first read it, so it wasn't so overwhelmingly obvious that it was in jest. Additionally, it appears there really has been some animosity created in another thread that has spilled over, so ultimately I DO question the intent. Whether or not any of us choose to respect or not respect another on AR15.com, we are expected to adhere to the code of conduct.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:23:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover:
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: I fully understand that the comment was directed at tat. My point is SO WHAT !!! If someone calls me ANYTHING on this board or any other, I could'nt care less. They are simply words. Words which are deemed offensive, so those words must be silenced. If anyone here is offended by what some anonymous person says to them or about them on an internet board, they have some serious issues. I have no problem with tat, but the people on this board really need to lighten up and take it for what it really is. As far as respect goes, I was always taught that respect is earned, not given, and just how does one earn respect for what they type on an internet board ???
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I agree with you in principle Spectre, but whether or not you or anyone else are unaffected by who is called what (and how that really should be the overriding philosophy), there is a Code of Conduct that overrides both yours and mine own views in this regard. [b]7) No personal attacks towards ANYONE. If you have a problem with someone, then take it offline with them. If it's with a member of the staff or a moderator, then contact someone from the Senior Staff. Attacking a person, ANY PERSON, in a non-joking manner (clearly visible as a joke) will not be tolerated. This includes provoking someone into an attack.[/b] Serious issues or not, I also questioned the statement when I first read it, so it wasn't so overwhelmingly obvious that it was in jest. Additionally, it appears there really has been some animosity created in another thread that has spilled over, so ultimately I DO question the intent. Whether or not any of us choose to respect or not respect another on AR15.com, we are expected to adhere to the code of conduct.
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BenDover, I am well aware of the conduct code, however, as we have discussed before, the code does not have a master list of words, names and terms from which to apply the code. The code is left open to individual interpretation as to just what is considered offensive and thats the problem with the code, whats offensive to one mod may not be to another.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:25:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By tatjana:
Originally Posted By Redmanfms: Don't we have a Eurotrash moderator? I wonder what her take is?
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First off, my take on your comment is that it's rude and out of line. I shouldn't need to remind members that personal attacks (Eurotrash being among those comments I would consider a personal attack) are out of bounds. Redmanfms: Check your IM please. Blah, Blah, Blah I wish I was American.
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Honestly, I really don't give a rat's ass what you think about anything. I used to respect you and was simply poking fun at you, but you had to give a didactic, righteously indignant response. Please. You know, I really didn't need your pathetically stupid (and misguided) harangue about Clinton's and Carter's foreign policies. If anything, you should see their sycophantic ass-kissing to Europeans as a good thing. Grow some thicker skin.
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[b]Redman !! Someone's logged onto the site using your password !![/b] Cause I know this can't be you dude. I remember quite a few times we've dueled and solved many, if not most, of the world's problems and you just didn't sound like this. If this is you is there anything wrong ?? Anybody we need to go uh, uh 'visit' that's giving you trouble ??
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:30:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: tatjana: you have the analogy wrong. The US isn't the rape victim, they are the raper. What the terrorists did was fight back(albeit wrongly- It would be like a rape victim tying up and then torturing a raper, and then cutting off his penis. yeah, its wrong to do that, but it does make sense.)
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Surely, you are being facetious, right? The United States as the [i][b]rapist[/i][/b]? Eric The(C'monTellUsItWasAJoke)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 9:34:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By libertyof76: tatjana: you have the analogy wrong. The US isn't the rape victim, they are the raper. What the terrorists did was fight back(albeit wrongly- It would be like a rape victim tying up and then torturing a raper, and then cutting off his penis. yeah, its wrong to do that, but it does make sense.)
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Surely, you are being facetious, right? The United States as the [i][b]rapist[/i][/b]? Eric The(C'monTellUsItWasAJoke)Hun[>]:)]
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Eric beat me to it. You're not being [b][i]serious[/b][/i], are you?
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:11:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: tatjana: you have the analogy wrong. The US isn't the rape victim, they are the raper. What the terrorists did was fight back(albeit wrongly- It would be like a rape victim tying up and then torturing a raper, and then cutting off his penis. yeah, its wrong to do that, but it does make sense.)
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d00d, you better check what people have been putting into your pipe....
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:13:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover:
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: I fully understand that the comment was directed at tat. My point is SO WHAT !!! If someone calls me ANYTHING on this board or any other, I could'nt care less. They are simply words. Words which are deemed offensive, so those words must be silenced. If anyone here is offended by what some anonymous person says to them or about them on an internet board, they have some serious issues. I have no problem with tat, but the people on this board really need to lighten up and take it for what it really is. As far as respect goes, I was always taught that respect is earned, not given, and just how does one earn respect for what they type on an internet board ???
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I agree with you in principle Spectre, but whether or not you or anyone else are unaffected by who is called what (and how that really should be the overriding philosophy), there is a Code of Conduct that overrides both yours and mine own views in this regard. [b]7) No personal attacks towards ANYONE. If you have a problem with someone, then take it offline with them. If it's with a member of the staff or a moderator, then contact someone from the Senior Staff. Attacking a person, ANY PERSON, in a non-joking manner (clearly visible as a joke) will not be tolerated. This includes provoking someone into an attack.[/b] Serious issues or not, I also questioned the statement when I first read it, so it wasn't so overwhelmingly obvious that it was in jest. Additionally, it appears there really has been some animosity created in another thread that has spilled over, so ultimately I DO question the intent. Whether or not any of us choose to respect or not respect another on AR15.com, we are expected to adhere to the code of conduct.
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Oh, Jesus Christ!! Animosity? Giving me a God-damned break. My facetitious response in that thread about the "boy" comment was posted TODAY. The response in this thread about Eurotrash was posted YESTERDAY. Seriously Ben, can't you read a freakin' time date!!?? [b]5subslr5[/b]: I don't bear any real ill will toward tatjana. I view her over-reaction to a questionnable comment as horribly immature, but what is really pissing me off are the constant IMs I'm getting from BenDover and the freakin' distortion of what happened. It was a God-damned joke, get the fucking Hell over it!!!!!!!! The response you quoted was a manifestation of that frustration. I probably should have flamed BenDover, but she was a convienent target (and her diatribe did really piss me off). [b]To tatjana[/b]: I apologize for the response that subsailor quoted as it was a bit over the top, and I was engaging in the same kind of over-reaction that pissed me off about your response. I DO NOT apologize for the initial response in this thread. It was a joke. If you can't take a joke (or even a hamfisted jab) then you DO need to grow some thicker skin. "Boys" play rough, you should know that by now.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:18:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: [b]Redman !! Someone's logged onto the site using your password !![/b] Cause I know this can't be you dude. I remember quite a few times we've dueled and solved many, if not most, of the world's problems and you just didn't sound like this. If this is you is there anything wrong ?? Anybody we need to go uh, uh 'visit' that's giving you trouble ??
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No, it's me. Honestly, I think my unusually testy behavior of late could be because of a number of things. I quit smoking. I quit drinking caffeinated beverages. I started an internship (that kinda sucks). School is back in. But I'm not one to make excuses. Read my above response for more info.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 10:38:21 AM EDT
The only thing I will say on this thread is that the people we so called "abandonded" over the years have been people that needed help already due to their own government or civil wars killing them or their way of life. You make it sound like the people didn't have a stake in the outcome. In most cases, think about the reason we were there in the first place. To help. Here's a modern example: The people in afganistan, sure they still live in tents, but at least they can play music without getting pushed off a cliff.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 11:14:25 AM EDT
That one entity acted in such a way that others thought themselves righteous to attack the entity, does not justify the attack. The comments of the Europeans seem to think that an attack is justified under those conditions. Malarky! In many ways, we brought the Japanese attack on Pearl HArbor on ourselves, and certainly the lack of watchfulness on our part (including failing to read a 1934 book "When we Fight" laying out the strategy), contributed to the destruction. But, that did not in any way justify it. We did not bring Hawaii to Tokyo Bay (brought the Missouri instead). In a similar fashion, we contributed to the current situation in the Middle East. First, by our Britain-worship, entering WWI as a quasi-colony. Second, by our blank check to Israel. The aftermath of WWI allowed a bunch of drunk, old Englishmen and Frenchmen to sit around a table and draw lines on maps, giving away what was not theirs to give. I hate to say it, but Saddam Hussein may have said one true thing in 1991 when he invaded Kuwait. It is entirely possible that Kuwait was indeed part of what is now Iraq. Just that the divisions after WWI created all this. Of course, this does not justify the attack, and it was just an example of the twisted use of a half-truth: he was interested in expansion of power and not in putting a nation together. Nevertheless, it is one of the unintended consequences of the manipulations of self righteous do-gooders. Interestingly, the same bunch drew lines which created Jugoslavia and the Balkan mess in which we still are involved. (Careful, it could blow up again.) The British and French wanted the oil territories (hey, I never said they were stupid). So, theh divisions of power served their purposes. Since its creation, we have given a blank check to Israel. In recent years, there have been some token limits, but they are just show. It is not my intention to say Israel should not exist, nor is that my opinion. They have a right to exist like anyone else. But, we have been so one sided for many reasons, the perception of their opponents makes us the enemy. Robert Kennedy's assasin Sirhan Sirhan was easily recruited to his deed because, by his own statement, the Kennedys and the US gave so much to Israel and kicked his people. Yes, we may have faults in the whole problem, but that is for us to say and argue. The hell with the bleatings and chest-beatings of some crook politicians elsewhere (we may have crooks, but they are our crooks). We helped replace some people with whom we might not have agreed, but at least who had character, with the current bunch of weasel politicians in Europe, many of who make ours look like amateurs. They would curry favor with any group for power. In many European countries, the trash floated to the top, and the phrase "Eurotrash" is one with which I sadly would agree. Once again, President Washington's farewell address, speaking of the "permanent alliances" and the blind favor of one country because of such an alliance truly addresses these problems. However, if the Muslims think this will make us give up Israel, they have accomplished the reverse, in my view. Before the attacks and threats, I would have said, let Israel finally stand on it's own feet. The attack, with it's obvious intent to blackmail us, says to me "fight these slimes to their end." Meanwhile, let's honestly look at what we have done, and do better after the destruction of, not only our enemies, but our attackers.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 11:26:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: tatjana: you have the analogy wrong. [red]The US isn't the rape victim, they are the raper. What the terrorists did was fight back[/red](albeit wrongly- It would be like a rape victim tying up and then torturing a raper, and then cutting off his penis. yeah, its wrong to do that, but it does make sense.)
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Umm... [i]serenity now, serenity now...[/i] Okay, EXCUSE ME?! Who raped Mohammed Atta and his band of psychopathic radical MoslemMaggots?? What crime did US commit to motivate them to cross the planet to come to New York and massacre 3,000 American civilians for?? What attack by the US prompted Osama to spend hundreds of millions of dollars of HIS OWN MONEY to fund these terrorist organizations for?? ANSWER: We were invited to establish and maintain a military presence in Saudi Arabia (home of Mecca) by their King. And THAT'S equivalent to rape?? Or were you just being sarcastic.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 11:32:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: [b]Redman !! Someone's logged onto the site using your password !![/b] Cause I know this can't be you dude. I remember quite a few times we've dueled and solved many, if not most, of the world's problems and you just didn't sound like this. If this is you is there anything wrong ?? Anybody we need to go uh, uh 'visit' that's giving you trouble ??
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No, it's me. Honestly, I think my unusually testy behavior of late could be because of a number of things. I quit smoking. I quit drinking caffeinated beverages. I started an internship (that kinda sucks). School is back in. But I'm not one to make excuses. Read my above response for more info.
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I DO know what you mean. Never, never will I quit crack and heroin again on the same day !!
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 11:48:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: tatjana: you have the analogy wrong. The US isn't the rape victim, they are the raper. What the terrorists did was fight back(albeit wrongly- It would be like a rape victim tying up and then torturing a raper, and then cutting off his penis. yeah, its wrong to do that, but it does make sense.)
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So the moon god worshipping muslim pieces of shit were wronged BY US??? Get a grip on reality, you sound like a complete jackass. Oh yeah, IF they in fact were harmed, wouldn't the correct response have been to attack the US military? I seem to recall a couple thousand innocent civilians that were murdered, which would be akin to a rapee torturing an innocent male, just because he's male. What a jackass.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:07:55 PM EDT
Don't hide behind a moniker like "libertyof76" pretending you are pro-American. You are a communist PC prick with the blame America first attitude. Do we do things that are bad? Sure. But so do the F-ing Arab countries that beat their woman with gov't approval and commit all sorts of attrocities (Sudan, Zimbabwe, etc ) under the guise of Islam. So if the rule of measure that we are using is attrocities commited against people then we should have nuked the middle east and most of Africa off the map decades ago. Oh yeah, and it wouldn't hurt to throw in the EU for good measure.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:11:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:15:17 PM EDT
Wow, just goes to show that they really don't care that we saved thier asses from imminent annihilation. Next time they get in a tiff, f**k 'em! Take everything we have out. Stop sending money. Let them do it themselves if they feel that way. Have fun.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:24:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2002 12:25:09 PM EDT by Balzac72]
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I haven't been involved in this thread, but am a small step from locking it. There seems to be no end to personal attacks. Please [b]discuss[/b], without making it personal. "What a jackass" sounds personal to me, as well as several others. Thank you.
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Mike, If you want harmony on the boards, then start locking the accounts of people who flame up against America. This board is dedicated to a unique weapon afforded to us by the Constitution, something that is very American. For him to flame against "America the rapist" just make this jackass look like a jackass. ANYONE who remotely says that the attack was warranted or that the terrorists were somehow wronged by WTC occupants is a fucking sicko bastard. Don't let your mod status cloud your mind. This is an American board and he doesn't sound very American with that kind of comment. Notice his absence after making the comment? [:K] Is this board better off letting comments like that go, or by telling this jackass that he's a jackass? Because if it is ok to make sick remarks like that, but it isn't ok for me to let him know what he sounds like, I think this AR15 "politeness" shit has gone too far. Unearned Eurotrash comments are one thing, but this guy earned his.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:24:15 PM EDT
IBTL. I had no idea that the "eurotrash" comment was directed at anyone. I took it as being directed at someone who would quickly jump to defent Europe's patheticly lame and insignificant opinions. DSAFALS might be eurotrash, but Tatjana is NOT! Oops. I think I am guilty now too. Stupid Europe made me do it...
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:32:32 PM EDT
Balzac...thanks for throwing the 1st Amendment in the toilet....Why don't you try and give info on your side instead of using the Demoncrat way of arguing. There have been many good examples of America's totally screwed up policy given here. Is America wrong sometimes? absolutely. Should anyone crash planes into a building to protest? nope Now can we sit down and decide some way out of this mess...not that it matters...the feds are going right ahead with their wrong policy...so all we can do is Bi%ch about it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:33:57 PM EDT
I agree with Tatjana on several points, although I find it hard to justify anything the terririst did on 9/11. They wanted to get world attention (and specifically US) focused on the Middle East, and you gotta admit they were successful there. You also have to admit that the US have the ability to be imperial, but no idea how to use that power (at least not the will to use it). We want to go into Iraq to save the world from Saddam's nasty WMD's. If we just wanted to take thier oil the world would be more understanding. Unfortunately, we want to bounce the a-hole & put in a US propped "democratic" gov't even though few in the entire region know what that is. That's why our Mid-East "allies" (meaning we pay them to act like our friends but really they dispise us) are against the US invading Iraq. If we are willing to bounce the dictator out of Iraq what abt the ones running Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc? I think the US suffers from identity crisis. We don't want to play the heavy, take stuff over & rule like the Roman Empire II. We also don't want to live & let live. Instead we try to impose US interest into other countries business. Unfortunately, we as a country are the least knowledgeable abt the rest of the world. Check out the news on MSNBC vs. BBC. We are focused on our own interest. So I just wish we'd make up our mind. Would you rather be feared, or respected? (and the latter is really not an option) Just one guys opinion.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:37:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I haven't been involved in this thread, but am a small step from locking it. There seems to be no end to personal attacks. Please [b]discuss[/b], without making it personal. [red] "What a jackass" sounds personal to me, as well as several others. Thank you.[/red]
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[v]
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 12:39:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 1:20:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: I haven't been involved in this thread, but am a small step from locking it. There seems to be no end to personal attacks. Please [b]discuss[/b], without making it personal. "What a jackass" sounds personal to me, as well as several others. Thank you.
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I have never been one to get into the pissing matches about threads being locked, nor do I criticize the moderators, but you have got to be kidding. Libby76 is a [b]JACKASS[/b]. He/she proves it everytime he/she posts. This little punk, who in the past has revealed him/herself as some young yoyo living off mom and dad, has always posted this kind of radical DU garbage. He/she is always spewing this anti-American garbage behind the security of his/her keyboard. Do a search for all his/her posts. Don't tell us we can't call this piece of garbage a jackass until you read his/her posts. As long as he/she makes comments like he/she does, he/she should not be able to rely on the mods to protect him/her. I have never caused a thread to be locked nor come close to being banned, but if you persist in protecting this little piece of crap and admonish us about calling it a jackass while allowing at least one other member to post his totally outrageous junk, something is wrong. Also, you can't expect us to not respond to Libby76's outrageous attacks on our country. He sounds like a radical Islamic member of DU.
Link Posted: 9/4/2002 1:25:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: tatjana: you have the analogy wrong. The US isn't the rape victim, they are the raper. What the terrorists did was fight back(albeit wrongly- It would be like a rape victim tying up and then torturing a raper, and then cutting off his penis. yeah, its wrong to do that, but it does make sense.)
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First, it RAPIST, not raper, genius. Second, if you really believe this crap you post, maybe we can take up a fund to buy you a one way ticket to the Islamic paradise of your choice. Third, I personally see nothing wrong with a woman who has been raped doing these things to the RAPIST who attacked her. Moreso, I wish she had been armed in the first place to stop him dead in his tracks, pun intended. When did we commit this rape? You really sound like a DU ultra-liberal, with a smattering if Islamic fundamentalism thrown in. You really are a buffoon.
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