You REALLY I do mean REALLY need to open another book other than a bible.....

I find it amazing that there are folks who will sit and stare at the writings on the screen in front of them, look at x-rays of their bones, use a microwave oven, watch a radar screen on a ship or plane, witness the power of the atomic bomb, embrace all of it and then discard the radiological half life of carbon-14 and the method derived from this to date objects.  It all based on the same science!  I'm a physics student if this is wrong than we are all living on a flat earth with magic abounding because in all my readings I never heard that "depth" would change the half-life of a radioactive isotope(if I'm interpreting the writing in the thread correct).  That being so we could dump all the nuclear waste into a deep deep hole and bury it and it will be gone much faster.  This reasoning is precisely why we will be forever doomed to let the cock roaches take over!  

Look, I understand it is difficult to reconcile a faith that has basically nothing as physical evidence with hard facts that seem to conflict with the same but seriously why would evolution be a limit on the power of god?  It seems the other way around.  Religion is limiting us! And believe me I understand the mechanics of the universe pretty well and there is nothing BUT chaos out there.  The human body is very complex but it is derived from a single cell organism that is relatively simple.  I have debated this with hard line religious folks time and time again to no avail.  You can see you the math behind the theories; the fossils in the museums, the c-14 in them, and the #'s do not lie.  There is no mystery of evolution.  It is not a theory, it is fact.  Explain why everything is DNA based?  Explain the bi-lateral symmetry of vertebrates?  Tell me how the earth orbits the sun?  I can tell you in the hard #'s and formulas but to explain it all away as the command of a supreme being is ludicrous.  I believe in god and hope to meet him.  I think that there is a mysterious order in all the chaos of the universe.  It IS too perfect.  But it was not created in an instant.  To say that is to say that everything was static at the moment of creation and then only was the mechanisms of change instituted. If so, account for the diversity of life that existed before modern man.  If not then we have a paradox where a static universe existed but the dynamics of creation were engaged?  The only theory that would even come close to this is the one of a singularity that says basically nothing can be predicted beyond the singularity.  At that point all space and time break down.  But in that there is some theoretical dynamic.  Now if true then why so hard to acknowledge that god is THE master physicist?  This debate goes way beyond human origin or even life's origin.  It goes right to the instant the universe began and how it happened.  We have pretty solid evidence on what happened shortly after the beginning but the instant cannot be seen because like I said it really didn't exist yet, for us, I think?  Well now we are getting into an area better left to someone like Stephen Hawking.  Oh well, at least I tried to make some sense before this gets locked.  I know, I know, I'm going to hell.  Well at least I'll have a lot of questions!

P.S.  Virus' do have genetic material and do mutate.  Genetic mutation is the mechanism of evolution.  Evolution is not only a macrocosm.  As for new species arising, you can be sure that a random mutation made it viable for HIV to be able to jump from other species to live in humans which would make it a very different virus as far as that goes.  I'm not a virologist but a simple virus does evolve into different "strains" not species.

I love the way this thread started out as kinda a joke, and everyone got so serious.  It's better than TV, watching everyone get scientific and/or biblical and being so serious.  Most of you take yourselves so seriously!  Your self imortance is so high, I bet you have trouble ever coming in second in a "talking battle".  You must prove to yourself over and over that you are important and that you do have a big whanger!  I guess you have "issues".  Maybe mommy didn't love you enough?

Of course, I know the truth (about man), but I'm not telling.  It's a secret.  If I tell, they'll kill me.  Oh! I said too much already!

BTW, you're all wrong!  he, he

ARADDICT,
Thanks for the tread.  I saw the bait you put out and all the little fishies swallowed it hook line and sinker.  You're a trouble maker!  I like your style!

[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/AR%5FRifle%2Fapes%2Egif[/img]

Yep!

This is a perpetual multi-page topic generator, along with abortion and homosexuality.  At least it used to be until Israel became a more topical subject because of recent events.

Its REAL simple folks ....

People who think they evolved from apes prolly did. AT least, they show no more intelligence than a common ape.

The rest of us who see order, and specificity, and intelligent design also (something greater than random mutation, and survival of the fittest) demonstrate  that intelligent design it in our theory of origins.

ba-BOOM!!!!!!!!!

[}:D]

Evolutionary progression and regression.


[img]chem.lapeer.org/Bio1Docs/Images/Evolution.jpg[/img]  [img]http://more.abcnews.go.com/media/Politics/images/rt_jail_sharpton_010817_nv.jpg[/img]

Cute.  You gonna say the same things about this man?

[img]http://www.ala.org/events/ac99/images/powell.jpeg[/img]

Colin Powell




Or this one?

[img]http://conservativechronicle.com/images/sowell.jpg[/img]

Thomas Sowell

Powell is COMPLETELY a political animal. His place on the evolutionary timeline wavers based on who is in power.

Sowell, Walter Williams, Alan Keyes, and to a lesser extent J.C. Watts are all among my heroes.

I can add little to what Valkyrie has said.  I just wanted to let garandman know that this ape man was watching. [smash]

DP -

Think of yourself as an ape man if you want - its OK with me.

Cuz I KNOW you were specially created. By God.

[}:D]

Many years ago when I was about 7, I asked in Sunday school where God came from.  

Many years later I ask again.

Where did GOD come from?

Ahhh, Dr. Weed -

Where did air come from???

You can't SEE it, yet you beleive in its existence because you see its effects / benefits, even tho you don't know its origins.

Same is true for me of God.

Yes, I am a descendant of monkeys.
But they're super-intelligent space/time travelling monkeys, not the garden-variety tree swingers the rest of you came from.

See??? Now THAT is the way to craft a theory of origins!!!!!!

A thory that can make ya feel GOOD about yerself.

[:D]

Well, I have hairy palms and think it's funny to fling my poop at people that irritate me, so for me the answer is pretty clear.  I can't speak for the rest of you though.

Garandman, I like your answer better. I just wish I had your faith.

Yup.  I [i]believe[/i] in air because there's physical evidence for it.  What are its origins?  Well, science says all atoms are the result of the origin of the Universe, and that's unknowable.  But the processes that followed the origin of the universe can be deduced from evidence and experimentation.  

There is no physical evidence of a god, creator of all, nor can his existence be tested for experimentally.  So, I can choose to believe in a god that there is no evidence for as the creator and shaper of the universe, or I can choose to believe that the universe happened, somehow, and that everything since that time can be understood through study and experimentation.  

I choose the latter.  If there is a god, I'm sure he'll understand.  After all, he would have been responsible for my creation, would he not?

KBaker, I wish I had your faith also.

That is my dilemma.  I just don't know.

It isn't faith - I [i]don't[/i] "know."  But I'm not hypocritical enough to act like I "believe" when I don't.  I figure if there's a god, he'd know I was faking it.

Nor does it prove that God didn't.

I've never fully understood why religious people have so much animosity against the Theory of Evolution. To me Creationism and Darwinism are perfectly compatible.

1) Okay, so people evolved from a common ancestor. Big woop. Who am I to tell God how to bring about his creations?

2) The universe and everything in it is entirely too complex yet orderly to have just ocurred at random. In my opinion, only fools believe this.

I reiterate: I've never understood the hostility...

Is not your belief in "not knowing" your faith?  

"Faith" as in "I'm absolutely positive that I don't know?"

You want to try that again?

Natural Selection practised over a long enough time line results in evolution.

Faith: "something that is believed especially with strong conviction"

Belief: "something believed"

So, Is not your belief in "not knowing" your faith?

Well, shoot, that's an easy one to answer.

The "theory of evolution" is in DIRECT conflict with how God tells us in His Word He created the earth.

In short, if evolutionary theory were true, the Bible would be completely invalidated, and God rendered a liar.

Having cleared up this HUGE mystery for you, I'll be sending you my bill.  [:D]

I'm a damned dirty ape!

Yes indeed that is exactly what happened.....and why there is no god.

What remains a mystery is why folks who are convinced there is no God work SO HARD to convince themselves therre is no God.

To wit:

1. YOu can't prove a negative. This is axiomatically true. Yet they persists in butting their heads against the wall, and in trying to prove the non-existence of GOd (i,e, proving a negative).

2. I'm quite sure there are no martians. Yet whole communities of people beleieve there are.

Still, I don't waste my time trying to convince the Roswell crowd they are wrong. I just leave them to their belief system.

But apparently, this isn't good enuf for the anti God crowd. They MUST persist in trying to prove the negative.

Seeems to me the ones they are trying to convince is the person they see in the mirror each morning.



My $0.02.

GAH!  You stole my post, you hoser.  Glad to see I'm not the only spud here.

[img]http://ladywildlife.com/animal/barbaryape.jpg[/img]

This was me before I evolved.

Actually it does not take very much "work" at all.  It is self evident as far as I am concerned.  Even if there were some Divine creator out there I am certain that the last one I would buy would be a christian version....

The onus is NOT on us to prove the non-existance of a creator for as you said it is axiomatically impossible.  If you want to worship something don't you think it would be a good idea to get some proof first?  As it is you have as much or less proof of your god as did the ancient Greeks or Romans or Grog the caveman.......oh ya thats right you do not believe that cavemen existed....care to prove that one?

So I figure when we blow ourselves up...the Snake Head fish will be the next to evolve. That's if we don't take them out before we are blown up. I understand Anthrax and West Nile don't affect them.

See page two. Or is that scientific stuff over your head?

Um, no.

My "faith" would be in believing that science can answer the questions.  There's no evidence that it can answer everything, or that it will.  I have "faith" that it eventually can, should we live long enough.  I have "faith" that the scientific system is a self-correcting one that will weed out the bad ideas or the slightly wrong ideas and reach the right ones.  Basically, I have "faith" that we're bright enough to live up to the challenge the vastness of the universe presents.  I've got nothing to support those beliefs, so they must be "faith."

OK?

OK, I'm good to go on that.

Unfortunately we "humans" are too smart for our own good. I yearn for the good ole day’s 40,000 years ago.[:D]  

ar10er..thats called selective reasoning. NOT science.  The most it could show is all that we do not yet know.  I for one have NO problem with that what so ever.

It does NOT in any way prove the existance of a god of any form....

OR ARE YOU DO DENSE TO UNDERSTAND THAT!!!

I must be. Because nothing has ever turned up that has been proven to be a missing link.

If there were missing links, how come they can not find one?

DNA.....DNA.....DNA!!!!!

When I look at a fossil of Archaeopteryx my mind says "transitional between dinosaur and bird."  Apparently yours doesn't.  When I see the progression from australopithicus through homo habilis through homo erectus through homo neanderthalensis to homo sapiens, I see a progression, not necessarily a broken chain.  You do not.  More power to you.

KBaker, as we sit here typing, there are scientist playing with DNA models.

One of the things they are finding is, if you try to "evolve" the differences between man and ape you get a non living thing.

And we've been playing with DNA for 40 years, while Nature has been manipulating it for 4 billion.

Give us a chance, AR10er.  We're new at it.

Ahhhh, you are correct. There is a difference now. We have computers that can make calculations in one second that would have taken a life time just 20 years ago.

As I said earlier, the more intelligent we become, the more God becomes real.

I think it's funny. When I was in school I had instructors who ask me, "knowing what you know, how can you believe in God", and my response was  "knowing what you know, how can you not believe in God"

Evolutionary theory holds that humans had a shared ancestor with apes, not monkeys.

Creationist theory holds that people were created by God.

Evolution and Creationist theory do not have to be mutually exclusive explanations.  Who said God was not an evolutionist?

Um you expect them to find every single step?  Thats asking a little bit considering the exacting conditions required to create a fossil not to mention the vast size of the planet....  The trick is to understand that it is explainable.....where as you only have "faith" to fall back on and not a SINGLE shred of evidence....pretty thin.

Anyway...I am off for a two day trip with my kids up to Ottawa......be good.

No, and I didn't crawl out of a swamp either. Though I must admit I do enjoy fishing, and think banannas are tasty on my cereal....

Hmmmmm....people get married with NO PROOF their marriage partner will be faithful to them, or be everything they claim to be thruout the marriage.

They take the evidence they have, and place FAITH in the other person.

I see evidences of God (Just say the word, and I'll give an extensive, detailed in-depth listing of them) and based on those evidences place FAITH in the Creator.



Not only do y'all persist in trying to prove a negative (prove God DOESN'T exist) now yer asking ME to prove a negative (that "Grog" never existed)

This kind of insipid logic ALWAYS ensues when people reject the obvious.

Yer a good fella, Storm, I'm sure. But yer twisting yerself in knots re: God.

If you walked on the beach and saw two names written in the sand...and footprints would you assume some human made them or that the random action of the waves created the writing...
The odds that the organization and diversity of life...the order of the planets and stars the complicated nueral systems of the most simple life forms...the odds of mutations being successful even once are so astronomical that they are  mathematically impossible..
And as ususal the followers of Huxley and Darwin...have to inflate claims and decieve in order to make a case...no wonder communism femanism the third way and atheism cling so tightly to junk science
Take a peak at reality
[url]http://www.discovery.org/[/url]

[b]Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?[/b] Psalms 2:1

[b]Psalms 46[/b]

1   God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

2   Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;

3   Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

4   There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.

5   God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.

[b]6   The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.[/b]

7   The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

8   Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.

9   He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

[b]10   Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.[/b]

11   The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

[b]Amen.[/b]

Eric The(Biblical)Hun[>]:)]

What ETH and divdoc said....

I concur. Wholeheartedly.