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Posted: 12/17/2012 5:01:50 AM EDT

[#1]

Also, I suspect the officer could have stopped the diver with force.

Haven't we seen instances in the past?

Failure to obey direction of a police officer?

Then it becomes an arrest situation.

Which could lead to resisting arrest.

How far would you escalate a situation?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:02:55 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Clark, who is a certified rescue diver with experience in icy water, said he understands the danger in attempting a rescue in a situation like the one he encountered right outside his front door.

“I have a lot of respect for police and firefighters and for those divers,” he said. “Someone could drown attempting a rescue like that.

Yet being trained, he was willing to accept the risk himself.

He assessed the situation and thought it was safe enough for him.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:04:28 AM EDT

[#3]

Most LE aren't trained in Rescue, they are trained in "Law Enforcement" so just because they have a boat doesn't necessarily mean they know what to do with a submerged vehicle. Usually, a resue boat is for picking up people stranded in trees or floating. Those boats aren't set up for a submerged/underwater rescue.

I'm on a Rescue Team where I work and as hard as it is for some to understand, we don't trade a life for a life.

As a 1st Responder, you do a site/scene assessment when you get on scene to find out what the (potentially) hazardous conditions are. If you can remove the Hazard(s), then you approach and render aid. If you can't remove the Hazard(s) (such as a current) or don't have sufficient equipment/personnel to facilitate a safe rescue then it's "too bad, so sad" (and these are our Friends and Co-Workers, not somebody we don't even know). As much as you want to help, you don't rush in and turn 1 victim into 2 victims.

It may sound cold hearted but:
1st comes your own safety (again, we don't trade 1 for 1)
2nd comes your Rescue Team
and last comes the Victim-They got themselves into the situation, not you.

You do hear Headlines about people jumping in and pulling someone out of a submerged vehicle but more often than not, its a "boat capsizes, Father jumps in to save son and drowns" on the 2nd or 3rd page of the local paper.

You learn to think with your head, not your heart.

Like it or not, that's the way it is and has to be with all Rescue Teams or they'll end up going through alot of Members.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:04:38 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

He had his gear, was 10 feet away and the car was near shore and mostly out of the water. The police officer assumed because there was no plate that it was stolen and no one was in it so he ordered the diver to stay away. Oops. Oh well.

So, best info is that the car is unnoccupied, and the officer doesn't want anyone risking thier life to check it.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:04:46 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I swear to you I saw a Border Patrol agent on an official Border Patrol bike with the whole bike cop outfit on pedalling along the Oswego Canal this fall

Ok, is it unusual to see BP guys in your area?

Or is it the bike patrol aspect of it?

Maybe they've found that bikes have some utility in their patrol work.

On another note, are you recovered yet?

Yeah we have a little squadron of BP guys. Nice guys but they don't do shit other than maybe once a year they chase the Mexicans around the muck farms. I have not noticed any illegals paddling up and down the canal. They assist local PD on arrests because they are bored as poop. I had a client charged with check kiting who had two BP cars show up with a local patrol car. Probably a awesome gig if you are a BP cop and I am oozing less than I was a week ago,

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:05:14 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The day after the accident, Deputy Fire Chief Ike Sederstrom was asked that question.

“It’s pretty much a self-rescue situation,” he said. “Even if the fire station is a block away, the chances of getting down there, getting to a person in the vehicle, in 40-degree water, in those conditions, is pretty slim.”

He described conditions on the river early Monday as cold, windy, choppy and dangerous.

Even the firefighters are in on it.

So it was dark and adverse weather conditions.

At least the fire fighters didnt stop a master diver from helping when they wouldnt

The master diver even admits he likely would have died in the process.

Also unless the officer cuffed him up he could have went in. Nothing stopped him but mere words.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:05:29 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

He had his gear, was 10 feet away and the car was near shore and mostly out of the water. The police officer assumed because there was no plate that it was stolen and no one was in it so he ordered the diver to stay away. Oops. Oh well.

So, best info is that the car is unnoccupied, and the officer doesn't want anyone risking thier life to check it.

"best info" being a wild assed and wrong guess.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:05:33 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
The day after the accident, Deputy Fire Chief Ike Sederstrom was asked that question.

“It’s pretty much a self-rescue situation,” he said. “Even if the fire station is a block away, the chances of getting down there, getting to a person in the vehicle, in 40-degree water, in those conditions, is pretty slim.”

He described conditions on the river early Monday as cold, windy, choppy and dangerous.

Even the firefighters are in on it.

So it was dark and adverse weather conditions.

Once you are a couple feet below the surface, a diver in the Mississippi can't tell day from night anyway.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:07:43 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

The master diver even admits he likely would have died in the process.

Also unless the officer cuffed him up he could have went in. Nothing stopped him but mere words.

He did not say that, he said "I could easily have gotten hurt" and I think he was trying to at that point avoid throwing the FD and PD under the bus completely. "Um well you know any rescue involves risk so I can understand why nothing was done, errr even though I was completely willing to take care of it myself, ahem cough cough"

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:09:05 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.

Well then call me stupid.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:09:11 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Clark, who is a certified rescue diver with experience in icy water, said he understands the danger in attempting a rescue in a situation like the one he encountered right outside his front door.

“I have a lot of respect for police and firefighters and for those divers,” he said. “Someone could drown attempting a rescue like that.

Yet being trained, he was willing to accept the risk himself.

He assessed the situation and thought it was safe enough for him.

There’s a chance I would have been sucked through the window from the flow of the water going in,

If he really wanted to go nothing would have stopped him.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:10:09 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Once you are a couple feet below the surface, a diver in the Mississippi can't tell day from night anyway.

Some officers suffer from the same fate due to retinal damage from high glucose levels. .

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:11:03 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Clark, who is a certified rescue diver with experience in icy water, said he understands the danger in attempting a rescue in a situation like the one he encountered right outside his front door.

“I have a lot of respect for police and firefighters and for those divers,” he said. “Someone could drown attempting a rescue like that.

Yet being trained, he was willing to accept the risk himself.

He assessed the situation and thought it was safe enough for him.

There’s a chance I would have been sucked through the window from the flow of the water going in,

If he really wanted to go nothing would have stopped him.

Disobeying a police order isn't an arrestable offense?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:11:08 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
I am oozing less than I was a week ago,

Thats good to know. Want you back in fighting form for your cage match with Zhukov.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:11:59 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Most LE aren't trained in Rescue, they are trained in "Law Enforcement" so just because they have a boat doesn't necessarily mean they know what to do with a submerged vehicle. Usually, a resue boat is for picking up people stranded in trees or floating. Those boats aren't set up for a submerged/underwater rescue.

I'm on a Rescue Team where I work and as hard as it is for some to understand, we don't trade a life for a life.

As a 1st Responder, you do a site/scene assessment when you get on scene to find out what the (potentially) hazardous conditions are. If you can remove the Hazard(s), then you approach and render aid. If you can't remove the Hazard(s) (such as a current) or don't have sufficient equipment/personnel to facilitate a safe rescue then it's "too bad, so sad" (and these are our Friends and Co-Workers, not somebody we don't even know). As much as you want to help, you don't rush in and turn 1 victim into 2 victims.

It may sound cold hearted but:
1st comes your own safety (again, we don't trade 1 for 1)
2nd comes your Rescue Team
and last comes the Victim-They got themselves into the situation, not you.

You do hear Headlines about people jumping in and pulling someone out of a submerged vehicle but more often than not, its a "boat capsizes, Father jumps in to save son and drowns" on the 2nd or 3rd page of the local paper.

You learn to think with your head, not your heart.

Like it or not, that's the way it is and has to be with all Rescue Teams or they'll end up going through alot of Members.

What is that? More common sense from somone actually in the business.

Get your fancy knowledge out of here. No place for it in GD cop bash thread.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:12:37 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

He had his gear, was 10 feet away and the car was near shore and mostly out of the water. The police officer assumed because there was no plate that it was stolen and no one was in it so he ordered the diver to stay away. Oops. Oh well.

So, best info is that the car is unnoccupied, and the officer doesn't want anyone risking thier life to check it.

"best info" being a wild assed and wrong guess.

So you would ignore the best available info, and go with hypotheticals instead?

The officer, acording to you, could see well enough to determine the car didn't have a plate on it.

But didn't see anyone in the car.

So based on that, you think it would be a good idea to send someone into 40 degree water, that acording to that diver could very possibly kill him, based on the possibility that there might be someone in the car, that wasn't seen.

Really?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:14:06 AM EDT

[#17]

It was the Law of the Sea, they said. Civilization ends at the waterline. Beyond that, we all enter the food chain, and not always right at the top.---- Hunter S Thompson

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:14:22 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

The master diver even admits he likely would have died in the process.

Also unless the officer cuffed him up he could have went in. Nothing stopped him but mere words.

He did not say that, he said "I could easily have gotten hurt" and I think he was trying to at that point avoid throwing the FD and PD under the bus completely. "Um well you know any rescue involves risk so I can understand why nothing was done, errr even though I was completely willing to take care of it myself, ahem cough cough"

Ehhh, he knows it would be bone headed move to go in that water under those conditions with no backup.

If he really wanted to go he would have went.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:15:41 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.

That river was in my backyard for the first 22 years of my life. It is just water. There are unsafe places on the river to swim for sure, same goes for ponds, oceans, rivers, and creeks everywhere, but a blanket statement like that is just wrong.

Yes, because most ponds and creeks are just like the Mississippi river. If you spent that much time near that river you know it is stupid to go in the water. To say otherwise is just stirring the pot.

OK, to be serious, Bama is right. I cannot attest to the upper Mississippi but at times the hydraulics of that river are downright scary. I have seen some crazy things in the 20 yrs I spent on or around that river.

I lived in Davenport, IA for the first part of my life. Swam in the Miss more then once. There are safe areas, and there are bad areas.

It's really hard to sit here and couch commando this situation. The conditions at the moment, and the location of the crash are very important in this situation. Without knowing those, why even comment.

If possible, I'd have attempted a rescue. Wouldn't we all like to think we would have. Reality is, that master diver didn't force the situation, probably for good reason.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:16:44 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There’s a chance I would have been sucked through the window from the flow of the water going in,

If he really wanted to go nothing would have stopped him.

Disobeying a police order isn't an arrestable offense?

So the thought of a possible misdemeanor arrest would prevent you from achieving hero status by jumping into the river?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:17:41 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Most LE aren't trained in Rescue, they are trained in "Law Enforcement" so just because they have a boat doesn't necessarily mean they know what to do with a submerged vehicle. Usually, a resue boat is for picking up people stranded in trees or floating. Those boats aren't set up for a submerged/underwater rescue.

I'm on a Rescue Team where I work and as hard as it is for some to understand, we don't trade a life for a life.

As a 1st Responder, you do a site/scene assessment when you get on scene to find out what the (potentially) hazardous conditions are. If you can remove the Hazard(s), then you approach and render aid. If you can't remove the Hazard(s) (such as a current) or don't have sufficient equipment/personnel to facilitate a safe rescue then it's "too bad, so sad" (and these are our Friends and Co-Workers, not somebody we don't even know). As much as you want to help, you don't rush in and turn 1 victim into 2 victims.

It may sound cold hearted but:
1st comes your own safety (again, we don't trade 1 for 1)
2nd comes your Rescue Team
and last comes the Victim-They got themselves into the situation, not you.

You do hear Headlines about people jumping in and pulling someone out of a submerged vehicle but more often than not, its a "boat capsizes, Father jumps in to save son and drowns" on the 2nd or 3rd page of the local paper.

You learn to think with your head, not your heart.

Like it or not, that's the way it is and has to be with all Rescue Teams or they'll end up going through alot of Members.

What is that? More common sense from somone actually in the business.

Get your fancy knowledge out of here. No place for it in GD cop bash thread.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:19:04 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I lived in Davenport, IA for the first part of my life. Swam in the Miss more then once. There are safe areas, and there are bad areas.

It's really hard to sit here and couch commando this situation. The conditions at the moment, and the location of the crash are very important in this situation. Without knowing those, why even comment.

If possible, I'd have attempted a rescue. Wouldn't we all like to think we would have. Reality is, that master diver didn't force the situation, probably for good reason.

“It’s pretty much a self-rescue situation,” he said. “Even if the fire station is a block away, the chances of getting down there, getting to a person in the vehicle, in 40-degree water, in those conditions, is pretty slim.”

He described conditions on the river early Monday as cold, windy, choppy and dangerous.

And it was dark.

I swam in that river when I was younger and too stupid to realize how dangerous it was.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:20:51 AM EDT

[#23]

I am a Police Diver (and an EMS Diver). I am an ERDI Instructor- and have many more instructor quals..

Anywho, Sgt. Mike Berry of the VA State Police (pretty much the end all be all for PSD diving) has rolled many cars in the water to observe how they behave. I have seen some of these demonstrations.

Cars float way longer than people think. 2-4 minutes usually. However, they can sink in the blink of an eye. they are unpredictable.
A person should be able to self rescue... however, if the person was having a medical event that led to the driving in the water in the first place, a self rescue would be out of the question.

Should an untrained Master Diver attempt a rescue?

First of all, what is a "Master Diver"? If you are a recreational diver, Master Diver is one "rank" above Advanced Diver (which is one above Open Water). What does it take to become a Master? Well, in SSI for example (my Master is SSI) it means 4 specialty courses (could be deep diving, night diving, photography, animal identification, who knows??) 50+ dives, and a recreational Stress Rescue course.

As a recreational Stress Rescue instructor, I can tell you rescue attempts of floating/sinking vehicles are NOT addressed in the curriculum. This was not the place for a recreation Master Diver to go.

Even if they were a Dive Master (one step below Instructor) this scenario is never addressed in recreation diving training. (There are three main areas of diving, Recreational, Public Safety, and Commercial. Recreational dive training does NOT make public safety divers)

As for the police on scene, I cannot speak. Did they have the right gear on the boat? The right/experienced divers? A sinking car is a extremely dangerous and unpredictable scenario. No teams that I know of have ever trained on a sinking car. It is too dynamic. Too dangerous.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:21:19 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

The master diver even admits he likely would have died in the process.

Also unless the officer cuffed him up he could have went in. Nothing stopped him but mere words.

He did not say that, he said "I could easily have gotten hurt" and I think he was trying to at that point avoid throwing the FD and PD under the bus completely. "Um well you know any rescue involves risk so I can understand why nothing was done, errr even though I was completely willing to take care of it myself, ahem cough cough"

Ehhh, he knows it would be bone headed move to go in that water under those conditions with no backup.

If he really wanted to go he would have went.

Sounds like he wanted to go [shrug] the cop told him not to go and normal people say "Er ok" not "Ha fuck you copper, you can't do shit to me!!" he probably did not want to get arrested for Obstruction of Governmental Administration or Sassin' the Man as it is probably called down there.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:26:21 AM EDT

[#25]

Surprised to hear there is enough water in the Mississippi to drown in.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:28:52 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There’s a chance I would have been sucked through the window from the flow of the water going in,

If he really wanted to go nothing would have stopped him.

Disobeying a police order isn't an arrestable offense?

So the thought of a possible misdemeanor arrest would prevent you from achieving hero status by jumping into the river?

You were the one that said nothing would have stopped him. I'm just pointing out that the officer was within his power to use force to do so.

Would the officer have used force? It has happened before.

One example I'm familiar with:
A local guy wanted to return to his house after a flood.
Officer said no.
Guy said yes.
Officer said no.
Guy gets in his truck and attempts to drive around the road block and the cop.
Cop steps in front of vehicle.
Guy decides to run the cop over.
Cop shoots the guy.

Cop could have just let the guy return to his home.

Stuff can escalate quick. I'm not going to disobey a cop.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:29:06 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There’s a chance I would have been sucked through the window from the flow of the water going in,

If he really wanted to go nothing would have stopped him.

Disobeying a police order isn't an arrestable offense?

So the thought of a possible misdemeanor arrest would prevent you from achieving hero status by jumping into the river?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:32:45 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Just a reminder, the Supreme Court ruled (2005?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect individuals.
This is the first instance I've seen of it. And it is down right disgusting.
LINK
Car runs off the road and into the Mississippi River.
Police and bystanders were on the scene almost instantly.
A master diver (who is also a certified rescue diver) who lives across the street from the incident was on the scene.
The car was still floating in the water, but sinking.
The officer called for other responders, but had zero interest in a rescue attempt.

Neither would I.

Wait until you see the canals we have down here. They're not full of water. They're full of black hole. When somebody goes in one, it may be twenty years before the water level drops enough that part of the car sticks out and they say, "That's what happened to that guy!"

No training in any kind of water rescue stuff so there's no way I'm going in.

That always mystified me about NYC. The place is surrounded by water, much of which can easily drown an adult who can swim. Yet water rescue training is negligible.

That's for the special guys with "hooks" in ESU, Scuba, and Harbor Unit.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:32:53 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I am a Police Diver (and an EMS Diver). I am an ERDI Instructor- and have many more instructor quals..

Anywho, Sgt. Mike Berry of the VA State Police (pretty much the end all be all for PSD diving) has rolled many cars in the water to observe how they behave. I have seen some of these demonstrations.

Cars float way longer than people think. 2-4 minutes usually. However, they can sink in the blink of an eye. they are unpredictable.
A person should be able to self rescue... however, if the person was having a medical event that led to the driving in the water in the first place, a self rescue would be out of the question.

Should an untrained Master Diver attempt a rescue?

First of all, what is a "Master Diver"? If you are a recreational diver, Master Diver is one "rank" above Advanced Diver (which is one above Open Water). What does it take to become a Master? Well, in SSI for example (my Master is SSI) it means 4 specialty courses (could be deep diving, night diving, photography, animal identification, who knows??) 50+ dives, and a recreational Stress Rescue course.

As a recreational Stress Rescue instructor, I can tell you rescue attempts of floating/sinking vehicles are NOT addressed in the curriculum. This was not the place for a recreation Master Diver to go.

Even if they were a Dive Master (one step below Instructor) this scenario is never addressed in recreation diving training. (There are three main areas of diving, Recreational, Public Safety, and Commercial. Recreational dive training does NOT make public safety divers)

As for the police on scene, I cannot speak. Did they have the right gear on the boat? The right/experienced divers? A sinking car is a extremely dangerous and unpredictable scenario. No teams that I know of have ever trained on a sinking car. It is too dynamic. Too dangerous.

The master diver was also a certified rescue diver, and the article says he had his gear with him.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:35:17 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

The master diver even admits he likely would have died in the process.

Also unless the officer cuffed him up he could have went in. Nothing stopped him but mere words.

He did not say that, he said "I could easily have gotten hurt" and I think he was trying to at that point avoid throwing the FD and PD under the bus completely. "Um well you know any rescue involves risk so I can understand why nothing was done, errr even though I was completely willing to take care of it myself, ahem cough cough"

Ehhh, he knows it would be bone headed move to go in that water under those conditions with no backup.

If he really wanted to go he would have went.

Sounds like he wanted to go [shrug] the cop told him not to go and normal people say "Er ok" not "Ha fuck you copper, you can't do shit to me!!" he probably did not want to get arrested for Obstruction of Governmental Administration or Sassin' the Man as it is probably called down there.

Sassin' the man is double the fine of Obstruction of Justice.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:39:25 AM EDT

[#31]

Being 100% serious -

How many steps are there between not attempting a rescue because water is wet, and not responding to your house when you call 911 about a burglar with a gun?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:42:48 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I am a Police Diver (and an EMS Diver). I am an ERDI Instructor- and have many more instructor quals..

Anywho, Sgt. Mike Berry of the VA State Police (pretty much the end all be all for PSD diving) has rolled many cars in the water to observe how they behave. I have seen some of these demonstrations.

Cars float way longer than people think. 2-4 minutes usually. However, they can sink in the blink of an eye. they are unpredictable.
A person should be able to self rescue... however, if the person was having a medical event that led to the driving in the water in the first place, a self rescue would be out of the question.

Should an untrained Master Diver attempt a rescue?

First of all, what is a "Master Diver"? If you are a recreational diver, Master Diver is one "rank" above Advanced Diver (which is one above Open Water). What does it take to become a Master? Well, in SSI for example (my Master is SSI) it means 4 specialty courses (could be deep diving, night diving, photography, animal identification, who knows??) 50+ dives, and a recreational Stress Rescue course.

As a recreational Stress Rescue instructor, I can tell you rescue attempts of floating/sinking vehicles are NOT addressed in the curriculum. This was not the place for a recreation Master Diver to go.

Even if they were a Dive Master (one step below Instructor) this scenario is never addressed in recreation diving training. (There are three main areas of diving, Recreational, Public Safety, and Commercial. Recreational dive training does NOT make public safety divers)

As for the police on scene, I cannot speak. Did they have the right gear on the boat? The right/experienced divers? A sinking car is a extremely dangerous and unpredictable scenario. No teams that I know of have ever trained on a sinking car. It is too dynamic. Too dangerous.

More logic. We don't want your kind here.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:44:39 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Being 100% serious -
How many steps are there between not attempting a rescue because water is wet, and not responding to your house when you call 911 about a burglar with a gun?

I was somewhat trained in handling a burglar with a gun.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:45:53 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
If it had been a marked patrol car in the river that rescue diver would have been told "Fuck it, go for i!!"

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:45:57 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am a Police Diver (and an EMS Diver). I am an ERDI Instructor- and have many more instructor quals..

Anywho, Sgt. Mike Berry of the VA State Police (pretty much the end all be all for PSD diving) has rolled many cars in the water to observe how they behave. I have seen some of these demonstrations.

Cars float way longer than people think. 2-4 minutes usually. However, they can sink in the blink of an eye. they are unpredictable.
A person should be able to self rescue... however, if the person was having a medical event that led to the driving in the water in the first place, a self rescue would be out of the question.

Should an untrained Master Diver attempt a rescue?

First of all, what is a "Master Diver"? If you are a recreational diver, Master Diver is one "rank" above Advanced Diver (which is one above Open Water). What does it take to become a Master? Well, in SSI for example (my Master is SSI) it means 4 specialty courses (could be deep diving, night diving, photography, animal identification, who knows??) 50+ dives, and a recreational Stress Rescue course.

As a recreational Stress Rescue instructor, I can tell you rescue attempts of floating/sinking vehicles are NOT addressed in the curriculum. This was not the place for a recreation Master Diver to go.

Even if they were a Dive Master (one step below Instructor) this scenario is never addressed in recreation diving training. (There are three main areas of diving, Recreational, Public Safety, and Commercial. Recreational dive training does NOT make public safety divers)

As for the police on scene, I cannot speak. Did they have the right gear on the boat? The right/experienced divers? A sinking car is a extremely dangerous and unpredictable scenario. No teams that I know of have ever trained on a sinking car. It is too dynamic. Too dangerous.

More logic. We don't want your kind here.

Ask a firefighter if every structural fire is like the last.
Yet they keep running in to burning buildings.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:46:52 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
...
All I'm getting from this story is that we can't count on the police to attempt a rescue.
In fact, we should count on them preventing real heros from helping.

People who wanted to rescue them could have rushed the cop - some would have got past him. I doubt the cop would have used deadly force to stop them.

Don't be too sure - remember the thread recently where a guy was tazed for trying to hose down his fence to keep it from catching fire?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:47:01 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am a Police Diver (and an EMS Diver). I am an ERDI Instructor- and have many more instructor quals..

Anywho, Sgt. Mike Berry of the VA State Police (pretty much the end all be all for PSD diving) has rolled many cars in the water to observe how they behave. I have seen some of these demonstrations.

Cars float way longer than people think. 2-4 minutes usually. However, they can sink in the blink of an eye. they are unpredictable.
A person should be able to self rescue... however, if the person was having a medical event that led to the driving in the water in the first place, a self rescue would be out of the question.

Should an untrained Master Diver attempt a rescue?

First of all, what is a "Master Diver"? If you are a recreational diver, Master Diver is one "rank" above Advanced Diver (which is one above Open Water). What does it take to become a Master? Well, in SSI for example (my Master is SSI) it means 4 specialty courses (could be deep diving, night diving, photography, animal identification, who knows??) 50+ dives, and a recreational Stress Rescue course.

As a recreational Stress Rescue instructor, I can tell you rescue attempts of floating/sinking vehicles are NOT addressed in the curriculum. This was not the place for a recreation Master Diver to go.

Even if they were a Dive Master (one step below Instructor) this scenario is never addressed in recreation diving training. (There are three main areas of diving, Recreational, Public Safety, and Commercial. Recreational dive training does NOT make public safety divers)

As for the police on scene, I cannot speak. Did they have the right gear on the boat? The right/experienced divers? A sinking car is a extremely dangerous and unpredictable scenario. No teams that I know of have ever trained on a sinking car. It is too dynamic. Too dangerous.

More logic. We don't want your kind here.

Ask a firefighter if every structural fire is like the last.
Yet they keep running in to burning buildings.

That is why they are called Firemen, Not Mer-Men.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:47:08 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Being 100% serious -

How many steps are there between not attempting a rescue because water is wet, and not responding to your house when you call 911 about a burglar with a gun?

Burglar with a gun. First unit sets up and waits for backup units, you flood the scene with cops, then you may or may not make entry.

Trying to do a one person water rescue of a sinking car in the conditions mentioned in the article is exactly the same.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:48:54 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Ask a firefighter if every structural fire is like the last.
Yet they keep running in to burning buildings.

I know of at least a couple FD's local to me that will not enter an involved structure fire by policy.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:49:34 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am a Police Diver (and an EMS Diver). I am an ERDI Instructor- and have many more instructor quals..

Anywho, Sgt. Mike Berry of the VA State Police (pretty much the end all be all for PSD diving) has rolled many cars in the water to observe how they behave. I have seen some of these demonstrations.

Cars float way longer than people think. 2-4 minutes usually. However, they can sink in the blink of an eye. they are unpredictable.
A person should be able to self rescue... however, if the person was having a medical event that led to the driving in the water in the first place, a self rescue would be out of the question.

Should an untrained Master Diver attempt a rescue?

First of all, what is a "Master Diver"? If you are a recreational diver, Master Diver is one "rank" above Advanced Diver (which is one above Open Water). What does it take to become a Master? Well, in SSI for example (my Master is SSI) it means 4 specialty courses (could be deep diving, night diving, photography, animal identification, who knows??) 50+ dives, and a recreational Stress Rescue course.

As a recreational Stress Rescue instructor, I can tell you rescue attempts of floating/sinking vehicles are NOT addressed in the curriculum. This was not the place for a recreation Master Diver to go.

Even if they were a Dive Master (one step below Instructor) this scenario is never addressed in recreation diving training. (There are three main areas of diving, Recreational, Public Safety, and Commercial. Recreational dive training does NOT make public safety divers)

As for the police on scene, I cannot speak. Did they have the right gear on the boat? The right/experienced divers? A sinking car is a extremely dangerous and unpredictable scenario. No teams that I know of have ever trained on a sinking car. It is too dynamic. Too dangerous.

More logic. We don't want your kind here.

Ask a firefighter if every structural fire is like the last.
Yet they keep running in to burning buildings.

They only go into burning buildings they think they can save or attempt to save a life, otherwise sit outside and dump water on it to prevent the spreading of the fire.

Exactly the same as a single person waterborne rescue in the dark in adverse conditions.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:49:55 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

The master diver was also a certified rescue diver, and the article says he had his gear with him.

Yes, I know. To be a Master diver, you must take the Rescue diving course (see above). I teach the Rescue diving course. It is a recreational level course. There is NO part of the curriculum where sinking car rescues are addressed.

Having gear with you and being geared up are to very different things. Our team requires a maximum of 10 minutes to dress out (wetsuit season). It can be done in 5-6 minutes with a tender and staged gear. Did he have either?

Assuming the car sank (as it probably would have in the time it takes to dress) does he have a tether? A tender? A back up diver? Heck, I assume the Mississippi is dark water... does he know how to do an underwater dark water search?

And of course, this is now a HAZMAT dive. Does he have proper PPE?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:50:11 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.

so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?

They answered that in the article. To pull people out of the water who are on the surface

Quoted:
Around here the boat guys are often the least fit and able to do any kind of strenuous rescue. It's a "treat" assignment for old cops to get on seniority so they can put around on the river. But then we have a hugely obese bike cop around here too. Maybe it's not that bad in other states.

We don't have a "rescue boat".
We have a lake patrol thats on the water to enforce navigation laws.
Occasionally theres a service call for stranded boaters, but we don't portray our boat as a "rescue boat"...and with funding cut backs these last few years, its only on the water for major holidays anymore.

And we have a winner.

This is why we all need unrestricted rights to carry firearms in any manner we choose at any time or place we choose.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:50:29 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There’s a chance I would have been sucked through the window from the flow of the water going in,

If he really wanted to go nothing would have stopped him.

Disobeying a police order isn't an arrestable offense?

So the thought of a possible misdemeanor arrest would prevent you from achieving hero status by jumping into the river?

You were the one that said nothing would have stopped him. I'm just pointing out that the officer was within his power to use force to do so.

Would the officer have used force? It has happened before.

One example I'm familiar with:
A local guy wanted to return to his house after a flood.
Officer said no.
Guy said yes.
Officer said no.
Guy gets in his truck and attempts to drive around the road block and the cop.
Cop steps in front of vehicle.
Guy decides to run the cop over.
Cop shoots the guy.

Cop could have just let the guy return to his home.

Stuff can escalate quick. I'm not going to disobey a cop.

So this diver tried to run over the cop now?

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:51:57 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Being 100% serious -

How many steps are there between not attempting a rescue because water is wet, and not responding to your house when you call 911 about a burglar with a gun?

Burglar with a gun. First unit sets up and waits for backup units, you flood the scene with cops, then you may or may not make entry.

Trying to do a one person water rescue of a sinking car in the conditions mentioned in the article is exactly the same.

I admit, that is a good response.

EDIT: But I was extrapolating a hypothetical from an actual event. Not comparing the two. Hence the "how many steps are there between" question.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:53:55 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Being 100% serious -

How many steps are there between not attempting a rescue because water is wet, and not responding to your house when you call 911 about a burglar with a gun?

Burglar with a gun. First unit sets up and waits for backup units, you flood the scene with cops, then you may or may not make entry.
Trying to do a one person water rescue of a sinking car in the conditions mentioned in the article is exactly the same.

But in this case the police "decided" no one was in the car. It's not that the first officer didn't strip off his gun belt and jump into the Mississippi, it's that he was wrong in assuming no one was in the car so he stopped the rescue diver and they just never bothered to do anything at all.

Would they have assumed no one was in the burlgarized house and then just waited for volunteers to go in and fetch the bodies the next day?

The long and short of it is taking a public safety job involves taking some risk to keep taxpayers from croaking. We could save a lot of money and just have volunteers push around one of those Monty Python wagons filled with corpses. This super anal risk averse "I ain't on the crew what saves people but I will keep others away while you die" is the same kind of goofiness that they used to do when they sealed off buildings with active shooters until swat eventually got the bread truck running.

If you have a giant fucking river in your town, have a rescue boat that can rescue people. If it's too dangerous when you get there, then yeah don't send people to their deaths, but wrongly assuming there is no one in a partially submerged car and then just fishing the corpse out later with a shrug is bumbling incompetence.

Posted: 12/17/2012 5:54:35 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There’s a chance I would have been sucked through the window from the flow of the water going in,

If he really wanted to go nothing would have stopped him.

Disobeying a police order isn't an arrestable offense?

So the thought of a possible misdemeanor arrest would prevent you from achieving hero status by jumping into the river?

You were the one that said nothing would have stopped him. I'm just pointing out that the officer was within his power to use force to do so.

Would the officer have used force? It has happened before.

One example I'm familiar with:
A local guy wanted to return to his house after a flood.
Officer said no.
Guy said yes.
Officer said no.
Guy gets in his truck and attempts to drive around the road block and the cop.
Cop steps in front of vehicle.
Guy decides to run the cop over.
Cop shoots the guy.

Cop could have just let the guy return to his home.

Stuff can escalate quick. I'm not going to disobey a cop.

So this diver tried to run over the cop now?

wait, wut? :)

Posted: 12/17/2012 6:00:21 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

But in this case the police "decided" no one was in the car. It's not that the first officer didn't strip off his gun belt and jump into the Mississippi, it's that he was wrong in assuming no one was in the car so he stopped the rescue diver and they just never bothered to do anything at all.

Would they have assumed no one was in the burlgarized house and then just waited for volunteers to go in and fetch the bodies the next day?

The long and short of it is taking a public safety job involves taking some risk to keep taxpayers from croaking. We could save a lot of money and just have volunteers push around one of those Monty Python wagons filled with corpses. This super anal risk averse "I ain't on the crew what saves people but I will keep others away while you die" is the same kind of goofiness that they used to do when they sealed off buildings with active shooters until swat eventually got the bread truck running.

If you have a giant fucking river in your town, have a rescue boat that can rescue people. If it's too dangerous when you get there, then yeah don't send people to their deaths, but wrongly assuming there is no one in a partially submerged car and then just fishing the corpse out later with a shrug is bumbling incompetence.

Before you go risking people's lives trying to "rescue" someone, you need to be positive there is actually a person in need of rescue.

Posted: 12/17/2012 6:01:37 AM EDT

[#48]

Stupid f'ing troll thread.

Posted: 12/17/2012 6:04:15 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Being 100% serious -

How many steps are there between not attempting a rescue because water is wet, and not responding to your house when you call 911 about a burglar with a gun?

Burglar with a gun. First unit sets up and waits for backup units, you flood the scene with cops, then you may or may not make entry.

Trying to do a one person water rescue of a sinking car in the conditions mentioned in the article is exactly the same.

But in this case the police "decided" no one was in the car. It's not that the first officer didn't strip off his gun belt and jump into the Mississippi, it's that he was wrong in assuming no one was in the car so he stopped the rescue diver and they just never bothered to do anything at all.

Would they have assumed no one was in the burlgarized house and then just waited for volunteers to go in and fetch the bodies the next day?

The long and short of it is taking a public safety job involves taking some risk to keep taxpayers from croaking. We could save a lot of money and just have volunteers push around one of those Monty Python wagons filled with corpses. This super anal risk averse "I ain't on the crew what saves people but I will keep others away while you die" is the same kind of goofiness that they used to do when they sealed off buildings with active shooters until swat eventually got the bread truck running.

If you have a giant fucking river in your town, have a rescue boat that can rescue people. If it's too dangerous when you get there, then yeah don't send people to their deaths, but wrongly assuming there is no one in a partially submerged car and then just fishing the corpse out later with a shrug is bumbling incompetence.

Then spend the money to have a fully capable rescue dive team on duty at all times. What does that cost?

No expert but from what I've seen even during a recovery dive involves 6 to 10 people.

Posted: 12/17/2012 6:05:41 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Stupid f'ing troll thread.

Discussing a real event? How so?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Law Enforcement has no duty to protect individuals - in action (Page 2 of 4)

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