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Posted: 8/11/2002 3:47:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 3:50:42 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Tonight (Sunday) on the History Channel. 10:00 PM Eastern, 9:00 Central.... [b]"Cover up: Attack on the USS Liberty"[/b] Maybe you folks can watch your fav IDF kill American sailors ??
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 3:58:00 PM EDT
Where's ETH? PONY_DRIVER
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:03:52 PM EDT
I am an America firster. I also support the right of the Israeli nation to exist. I am not anti-semetic, so I guess I really don't fit in with a lot of members of this board. I guess the question is, if you are anti Israeli, are you pro-arab? I seem to recall that 11 months ago, the arabs killed one helluva lot more Americans than the Israeli's did. Of course, that makes no difference to the anti-semite types anyway.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:09:06 PM EDT
Hey Juan, isn't there some way that you can build an "Idiot Filter" into the board software, that way those of us who don't tolerate morons well, can filter out their spewage? Just an idea.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:10:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: Hey Juan, isn't there some way that you can build an "Idiot Filter" into the board software, that way those of us who don't tolerate morons well, can filter out their spewage? Just an idea.
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If you want to watch censored programming, go watch television. Support your kind.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:14:20 PM EDT
, this isn't TV, this is someones private compound, you have no rights here, other than what Juan gives you. I for one would appreciate a filter to remove you, it would be neat and clean and just remove any trace of you. No muss, no fuss. Much like we don't need to hear the opinions of the insane, well, I guess it's the same thing. Carry on.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:17:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 4:17:54 PM EDT by McUZI]
Originally Posted By hielo: I for one would appreciate a filter to remove you, it would be neat and clean and just remove any trace of you. No muss, no fuss.
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Ironic. That's exactly what the SS said as they were loading the boxcars.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:20:40 PM EDT
, yes, how nice. On to the filter idea.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:21:32 PM EDT
Just as an aside, but do you actually have a name of the SS that said that, or, was it just...more...Mcuzi'isms? Uh, thought so.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:23:27 PM EDT
User profile --> Add to ignore list There you go. Now you only have to listen to what you want to hear.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:24:17 PM EDT
You too good, Badseed. THanks for opening my eyes. (never needed the filters before).
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:28:19 PM EDT
Wow, Badseed, I must jsut be the typical person of Jewish descent, but I can't find any filters anywhere in the profile area. Are you maybe thinking about the Instant Messenger?
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:32:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: Wow, Badseed, I must jsut be the typical person of Jewish descent, but I can't find any filters anywhere in the profile area. Are you maybe thinking about the Instant Messenger?
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Umm, ok. You got me - that was meant to be a rip on Jewish people. (I was so clever about it, that I missed it myself.) Look at the IM button, then count 1 icon to the right and then 1 more to the right; there it is. Don't get pissy with me, ok? You asked a question and I answered it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:35:02 PM EDT
Hielo, the epitome of tolerance. *LOL* I'm an Israel seconder (and other allied countries) but I think we need to see them through this present crisis. After that we should reevaluate our aid to them (as we have other moments in history - like the end of the cold war, and subsequent budget rethink). I would like to cut off Egypt's funding almost completely. We could then cut the aid to Israel by a similar amount (still leaving them with a billion a year) without truly weakening them versus potential adversaries. We are basically supplying two cold war rivals (camp david peace accords three decades ago) with tanks and planes to face off each other. Stupid! I'm pretty sure I've seen the program "attack on the liberty" before. Perhaps hielo should watch it and give us his review; critiquing the claims or "evidence." If you think truly anti-semitic programming is allowed on the air in the United States... then you are woefully ignorant.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:36:25 PM EDT
[img]http://www.onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/springer.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:39:14 PM EDT
IBTL! [:D]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:43:22 PM EDT
IBTL? They wouldn't DARE lock a... . [img]http://www.jewishpost.com/jwnnews.gif[/img] .
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:54:32 PM EDT
Wasn't at all getting pissy with you Badseed, I was trying to be self depracating as I expressed my inability to see what you plainly see. No where on my screen (IM or main) gives me that option. YMMV. Thanks for the info though, I really do appreciate it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:56:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stg44: I am an America firster. I also support the right of the Israeli nation to exist. I am not anti-semetic, so I guess I really don't fit in with a lot of members of this board. I guess the question is, if you are anti Israeli, are you pro-arab? I seem to recall that 11 months ago, the arabs killed one helluva lot more Americans than the Israeli's did. Of course, that makes no difference to the anti-semite types anyway.
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Just so you know, in case you don't have a clue. If you hate Arabs, you're an "Anti-semite" too. Arabs are Semites.....
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:59:15 PM EDT
I agree with your assesment of Israel, and what the US shoudl do. I think tha tit is time for Israel to stand on it's own, if need be, let them roll into Saudi Arabia or Iraq themselves and take the oil fields, they would then have a ready supply of cash. As to the USS Liberty, what was done was a crime, heads shoudl ahve been put on pikes because of it. I do beleive that things happen in war that no one would be proud of, and that most would not admit to. The USS Liberty should make every man and woman in the Israeli service at the time hang their heads in shame. The nazis here should expend as much venom against our our government over incidents like the TOnkin Bay debacle and Pearl Harbor...
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 4:59:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 5:05:38 PM EDT by shamayim]
You know, if subsailor was even half as pissed off about the Marines murdered by Arab terrorists in Beirut as he is about sailors killed by the Israelis, I wouldn't find him quite such a pain in the backside. Apparently, he doesn't think anybody but sailors are worth anything. Marines don't count, US Embassy people don't count, US students don't count, US passengers on airliners don't count. Nobody counts but that one ship attacked by the Israelis 35 years ago. Wonder why that is???? Oh yeah, almost forgot; helpless old men in wheelchairs don't count, and hey, wasn't that a NAVY SEAL who got his throat cut in the airplane hijacking some years back. Oh well, don't guess SEALS count either. [;D]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:05:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:11:38 PM EDT
Typical Goldberg distractionary propaganda... Yes, Other people have killer Americans. And those people are bad. No one said that Jews were the only ones to wrong America. But just because they aren't alone in the club in no way gets them a free pas for what they [b]DID[/b] do.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:11:44 PM EDT
In before the lock...anything for attention, huh? Save America...eliminate Muslims. [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:14:33 PM EDT
While I'd love to watch, the new season of THE MAN SHOW starts at that time on com central. Let me know how it ends. :) TXLEWIS
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:16:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:16:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 7:16:35 PM EDT by Badseed]
[img]http://12.230.188.231/images/ignore.JPG[/img] If you don't see these options, you may want to shoot off an e-mail or check your user settings. You made me fire up the www server, I hope this works [:D]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:17:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shamayim: You know, if subsailor was even half as pissed off about the Marines murdered by Arab terrorists in Beirut as he is about sailors killed by the Israelis, I wouldn't find him quite such a pain in the backside. Apparently, he doesn't think anybody but sailors are worth anything. Marines don't count, US Embassy people don't count, US students don't count, US passengers on airliners don't count. Nobody counts but that one ship attacked by the Israelis 35 years ago. Wonder why that is???? [;D]
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I think his hatred is primarily directed towards 'who' is killing Americans (Israel) as opposed to which specific Americans are being killed (USN et al.). P.S. IBTL...
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:17:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: I agree with your assesment of Israel, and what the US shoudl do. I think tha tit is time for Israel to stand on it's own, if need be, let them roll into Saudi Arabia or Iraq themselves and take the oil fields, they would then have a ready supply of cash. As to the USS Liberty, what was done was a crime, heads shoudl ahve been put on pikes because of it. I do beleive that things happen in war that no one would be proud of, and that most would not admit to. The USS Liberty should make every man and woman in the Israeli service at the time hang their heads in shame. The nazis here should expend as much venom against our our government over incidents like the TOnkin Bay debacle and Pearl Harbor...
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I appreciate your thoughtful and reasoned reply ([i]sans[/i] the typical hysterics of some on these questions). Your last point is certainly a fair one; people do tend to ignore our own flawed policies and actions in favor of "the other." I think that's probably the natural human condition.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:24:02 PM EDT
Ah but McUzi, Jews are the only ones you and subsailor ever post about. Oh no, forgive me; you hate blacks too. Oh man, you bring that attitude to that federal job you're trying to get and you won'r make it past the probationary period. But if my suspisions are correct, you'll suck up to any Black or Jew you happen to get as a supervisor, and take your hate out over here. That's typical for people like you; sweetness and light outside---eaten up with sickness and hate inside.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:27:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 5:29:08 PM EDT by McUZI]
Originally Posted By shamayim: That's typical for people like you; sweetness and light outside---eaten up with sickness and hate inside.
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LOL! A lot of people seem to think that when discussing individuals over the internet..
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:28:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PONY_DRIVER: Where's ETH? PONY_DRIVER
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Thanks, [b]PONY_DRIVER[/b], but I'm going to sit this one out, unless something 'new' that is 'true' is developed by these 'Israel bashers.' And trust me, they have nothing 'new' and even less that is 'true.' [:D] Eric The(When'sTheLastThreadOnTheUSSStark?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:35:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: Hey Juan, isn't there some way that you can build an "Idiot Filter" into the board software, that way those of us who don't tolerate morons well, can filter out their spewage? Just an idea.
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I'm sorry I just have to [;D] Because if it was in place the vast majority of the posts would be filtered out, even to the people that posted them....... With some exceptions, Tatjana and Brouhaha's post about ballistics, 9Divdoc, and E-T-H's post-links, I guess except for Israel related posts. General stuff about the military. Equipment issues, but not T-F-B fantasies related to SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, B-O-B etc. I'm also pretty sure that Imbroglio wouldn't be filterd, but he'd have much less to comment on. And forget about any posts from Mcuzi, or B-O-G, or a few more.............
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:43:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: I agree with your assesment of Israel, and what the US shoudl do. I think tha tit is time for Israel to stand on it's own, if need be, let them roll into Saudi Arabia or Iraq themselves and take the oil fields, they would then have a ready supply of cash. As to the USS Liberty, what was done was a crime, heads shoudl ahve been put on pikes because of it. I do beleive that things happen in war that no one would be proud of, and that most would not admit to. The USS Liberty should make every man and woman in the Israeli service at the time hang their heads in shame. The nazis here should expend as much venom against our our government over incidents like the TOnkin Bay debacle and Pearl Harbor...
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I agree with you on most of that, and I think that you may have touched on a point there. The US support of Israel also keeps Israel from declaring war on it's neighbors, since if they REALLY needed something that one of thier nieghbors had, they could take it. I disagree on Pearl Harbor, that was a Japanese sneak attack, they are at fault. But "remember the Maine!" is what got us into the Spanish-American War. Because the USS Maine had to have been attacked by the forces of Spain. Nope it was a tragic accident, a boiler expolosion. But it was easier to blame someone else.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 5:48:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By PONY_DRIVER: Where's ETH? PONY_DRIVER
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Thanks, [b]PONY_DRIVER[/b], but I'm going to sit this one out, unless something 'new' that is 'true' is developed by these 'Israel bashers.' And trust me, they have nothing 'new' and even less that is 'true.' [:D] Eric The(When'sTheLastThreadOnTheUSSStark?)Hun[>]:)]
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Guess those 'rotters' at the History Channel are now "Israel bashers"............???? [b]Maybe there'll be video of the IDF strafing the Liberty's lifeboats - maybe a couple of still shots as an Israeli fighter rolls in to deliver napalm.............[/b] Lots of entertainment for the Israel Firster !! What the hell, only a few American sailors and it all happened so long ago..............who could possibly care ?? Well, I still care and will until the day I die or until Israel admits the attack and issues an apology and adequate compensation for those they murdered. [b]The life of an American was worth $100,000 to the Israelis and a wounded American was paid $20,000 - 13 years after the attack. Those guys probably didn't need both legs or two arms or a spleen.................[/b]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:04:43 PM EDT
[b]I know all you 'Israel Firsters' are getting your popcorn, party hats and beers to enjoy the coming entertainment.[/b] Here's a little something to whet your appetites !! ------------------------------------------------ "...and I was running as fast as I could and I remember my feet were going through blood that was running down the deck like a small river........my life raft was blown to smithereens, there just wasn't anything left of it...........you could hear the incoming shells.........there was a guy beside me and the next thing I knew he wasn't there.......I looked down and I was standing on what was left of his thigh." The firing continued, now from the (Israeli) torpedo boats. "We were laying there, he recalled, and if I was to summarize what it sounded like, [b]we were all praying. It sounded almost like a chant, like mum-mum-mum-mum, that's the way it sounded because all these guys were wounded, and we were all praying[/b] and almost in the same tone." (Excerpted from "Body of Secrets" page 218.)
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:07:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 6:11:50 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Let's see, what was the Liberty doing? Delivering medical supplies?? - Nope Delivering spare parts for Israeli jet - Nope Evacuating refugees - Nope Spying on an ally - Bingo, jackpot, woo hoo. Israel, that's right we were spying on them. I suppose that if the US caught Isreali's spying on the US we would just ignore it, after all they are an ally. Not to mention the fact that the US is partially responsible for the incident too. Why send a ship into a war zone? Before someone shows up and says it was a US Navy blah, blah, blah, remember the US Navy mistook a 747 for an F-14 flying out of Iran not so long ago, that was done by an Aegis class cruiser, and the US killed every person on that passenger plane when it was shot down. If you wanna play James Bond, you take certain risks. Guess they met Dr. No. They knew the risks going in. If the US is not ready for the consequences of being caught spying, maybe we shouldn't spy on other people. EDIT- I meant Iran and originally posted Iraq.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:28:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: [b]Maybe there'll be video of the IDF strafing the Liberty's lifeboats.........[/b]
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That'll be the day! It would take a monumental effort of creative technology to present or show something that NEVER happened, now wouldn't it? Read the transcript of the Naval Court of Inquiry - such BULLSHIT [u]NEVER[/u] HAPPENED! And if members of the crew are saying NOW that it did, the question then becomes, were you lying THEN, or are you lying NOW?
Well, I still care and will until the day I die [u]or until Israel admits the attack and issues an apology and adequate compensation for those they murdered[/u].
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So [u]your[/u] anger can be assuaged by a simple apology and a payment of some bucks? [u]That[/u] doesn't seem like real anger to me, [b]subdude[/b], that sounds like a vendetta. I'd be damned if I would forgive murderers of my family members so easily! And just how much is 'adequate compensation' for a US sailor? I would hate to be given that responsibility! From the Official Transcript of the Court of Inquiry of 10 JUNE 1967: (Examination of Commander William L. McGonagle, U.S.N, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5), beginning on [b]Page 38[/b] of transcript, and continuing) [Commander McGonagle, speaking] "When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, the center boat of the formation was [b]signaling to us[/b]. Also, at this range, it appeared that they were [b]flying an Israeli flag[/b]. This was later verified. It was not possible to read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke and flames. At this time, I yelled to machine gun 51 to tell him to hold fire. [b]I realized that there was a possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli and the attack had been conducted in error[/b]. I wanted to hold fire to see if we could read the signal from the torpedo boat and perhaps avoid additional damage and personnel injuries. The man on machine gun 51 fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand what I was attempting to have him do. Instantly, on machine gun 51 opening fire machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat. [b]From the starboard wing of the bridge, 03 level, I observed that the fire from machine gun 53 was extremely effective and blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat[/b]. It was not possible to get to mount 53 from the starboard wing of the bridge. I sent Mr. LUCAS around the port side of the bridge, around to the skylights, to see if he could tell QUINTERO, whom I believed to be the gunner on Machine gun 53, to hold fire until we were able to clarify the situation. He reported back in a few minutes in effect that he saw no one at mount 53. [b]As far as the torpedo boats are concerned, I am sure that they felt that they [39] were under fire from USS LIBERTY[/b]. At this time, they opened fire with their gun mounts and in a matter of seconds, one torpedo was noted crossing astern of the ship at about 25 yards. The time that this torpedo crossed the stern in believed to be about 1426. About 1427, without advance warning, the ship sustained a torpedo hit starboard side forward, immediately below the waterline in the vicinity of the coordination center. * * * "Immediately after the ship was struck by the torpedo, [b]the torpedo boats stopped dead in the water and milled around astern of the ship at a range of approximately 500 to 8?0 yards[/b]. [b]One of the boats signaled by flashing light, in English, "do you require assistance"? [/b] We had no means to communicate with the boat by light but hoisted code lima india. The signal intended to convey the fact that the ship was maneuvering with difficulty and that they should keep clear." There you have it, [b]subdude[/b], from the CO of the USS Liberty, in sworn testimony given to his superior officers just two days after the event of which he was a major player and the only credible witness as to orders he gave and the reports of others to him. And yet, he doesn't appear to blame the Israelis in the least but says that he understands that the attack may have been conducted by mistake! Now he was there, and we weren't. He was topside and in the thick of it, and the others weren't. His testimony, BTW, was not contradicted by any of the other crew that testified in that Court of Inquiry! Were they all LYING [b]subdude[/b]? Was this future Medal of Honor recipient LYING to save the JEWS? I would rather that you would just come out and say what you really mean. That this CO was LYING to the COURT of Naval Inquiry and that he was doing it to...save the Jews with the promise of a CMOH if he 'did good'? Is THAT what you believe? That's friggin CRAZY!!!!! BTW, I surely didn't see [u]any[/u] testimony about 'machinegunning the lifeboats' - are you sure you didn't dream that up from some U-Boat movie from WWII? I seem to recall a few Nazis in naval uniforms shouting that in some old movies. Eric The(SeeHowReasonableICanBe?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:29:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 6:34:31 PM EDT by Gunner1X]
This thread = [:K] & [img]http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/8514/hakencr1_small.gif[/img] Shouldn't you guys be out burning a cross or something? There's bound to be a Jew or an Isreal supporter that needs a good butt kicking. Your lives must be very sad. G1X
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:32:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Badseed: [url]http://12.230.188.231/image/ignore.JPG[/url] If you don't see these options, you may want to shoot off an e-mail or check your user settings. You made me fire up the www server, I hope this works [:D]
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Got a red x, tried to copy and paste url, got "The page cannot be displayed"... is it me???
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:35:17 PM EDT
Here's the link to the Official Transcript of the Court of Naval Inquiry concerning the attack on the USS Liberty. I would think that anyone who wants to make an intelligent post on this subject should at least make a stab at reading the entrety of this transcript. Unless, of course, you simply think that the Commanding Officer of the USS Liberty and his crew were busy getting Israel's butt outta a sling, only two days after the attack! [url]http://www.ussliberty.org/nci.txt[/url] Please read the transcript and become conversant over what these 'Israel bashers' are asking us to believe! Eric The(ReasonableAsHell)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:36:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 6:39:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: I agree with your assesment of Israel, and what the US shoudl do. I think tha tit is time for Israel to stand on it's own, if need be, let them roll into Saudi Arabia or Iraq themselves and take the oil fields, they would then have a ready supply of cash. As to the USS Liberty, what was done was a crime, heads shoudl ahve been put on pikes because of it. I do beleive that things happen in war that no one would be proud of, and that most would not admit to. The USS Liberty should make every man and woman in the Israeli service at the time hang their heads in shame.
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Excellent statement. Excellent. I agree wholeheartedly.
The nazis here should expend as much venom against our our government over incidents like the TOnkin Bay debacle and Pearl Harbor...
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Crap. You were doin' so well. The use of the "nazis" label pretty much puts you in the "hysterical " column, when I know you are not. And the reason Tonkin and Pearl don't apply here is because in NEITHER of those cases is anyone here "ignoring the pink elephant in teh living room" re' Tonkin or Pearl. We all agree those were ACTS OF WAR and agree with Americas response of engaging in war (Or that America SHOULD have responded with war) But ya knowm that "excellent" statement above? Most of the "Israel firsters" DO NOT agree with your statement, adn ARE "ignoring the pink elephant in their living room." The USS Liberty is teh subject matter here. Other nations that committed ACTS OF WAR is NOT an acceptable distraction, and should NOT be included in a relevant discussion of teh facts of the USS Liberty.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:19:01 PM EDT
Well, show's over. [b]The IDF is most proud of its' attack on the USS Liberty and the murder or wounding of 69% of the ship's crew. Next time you 'Israel Firsters' are in Israel, stop by the Israeli Naval Museum and see the wheel and ship's bell from Israeli Motor Torpedo 203.[/b] (Maybe you folks can get some autographs from your brave IDF.................???) Although five torpedos were launched at the USS Liberty, only the torpedo launched from Israeli Motor Torpedo Boat 203 hit its' target. That 'success' is memorialized in the Israeli Naval Museum.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:19:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see, what was the Liberty doing? Delivering medical supplies?? - Nope Delivering spare parts for Israeli jet - Nope Evacuating refugees - Nope Spying on an ally - Bingo, jackpot, woo hoo. Israel, that's right we were spying on them.
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You got that right. And here's the part most defenders tend to overlook: The Israelis KNEW the Liberty was coming and WARNED our ambassador in the week before against bringing it any closer. Their motives are their own and do not have to be supplied to prove anything. They knew it was coming; they didn't want it there. That's enough of a motive for me. It WAS NOT as if they had no idea it was in the area. When attacked it was just off the coast of Gaza in international waters. Pilots conducting naval operations TRAIN and STUDY ship outlines of friend and foe alike - especially back then without today's amazing technology. Pass upon pass continuing to misidentify it (as an Egyptian ship, not even a warship) 1/4 it's size. After the multiple recons they attacked it with two mirage jets from the air. Then three unmarked Super-Mysteres with napalm and rockets (hardly normal, but effective against the delicate spying equipment on the outside). Then mirages again. A bit much for a supposed horse carrier. The israelis then acknowledged their mistake to the US government and navy. THEN they sent in torpedo boats which torpedoed the Liberty, fired their cannons at it and destroyed two of the three life boats with survivors on board (Illegal even if it was an Egyptian ship!).
I suppose that if the US caught Isreali's spying on the US we would just ignore it, after all they are an ally.
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No, what we do is hush it up as much as possible. That's what happened when an employee at General Dynamics tank division here in Michigan - with other loyalties - spied for Israel, sending them our armor secrets. What do you think we've done in the past that supports the ridiculous statement you just made. Have we ever done as badly to our arch-enemy the soviet union when we caught them spying close to our shores (or even in the united states)??? WTF are you talking about!!! [pissed]
Not to mention the fact that the US is partially responsible for the incident too. Why send a ship into a war zone? Before someone shows up and says it was a US Navy blah, blah, blah, remember the US Navy mistook a 747 for an F-14 flying out of Iran not so long ago, that was done by an Aegis class cruiser, and the US killed every person on that passenger plane when it was shot down.
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The united states was engaged in combat with Iran at the time. We got the side right. We attempted to contact them and warn them off. The same is not true back in '67. (Unless you are agreeing that they had already done so and it was deliberate...) It is United States policy (through any administration or party) to send our navy wherever the hell we please as long as it is in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Only countries like Libya (good company to keep!) have challenged us on that.
If you wanna play James Bond, you take certain risks. Guess they met Dr. No. They knew the risks going in. If the US is not ready for the consequences of being caught spying, maybe we shouldn't spy on other people.
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We were ready for the consequences. Our six fleet sent a dozen f-4's from the CV 'Saratoga'. The Israelis then acknowledged their mistake and promised to render aid to the liberty - and so the jets were recalled. They did no such thing and over the next two hours the torpedo boats went into action. Yeah, it was all just a misunderstanding. [rolleyes] The Israelis had no idea the ship was in the area; and if it was they didn't mind it being there; and after the identication mistakes and attacks were really going to render aid. [whacko]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:20:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2002 7:23:05 PM EDT by bountyhunter]
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see, what was the Liberty doing? Delivering medical supplies?? - Nope Delivering spare parts for Israeli jet - Nope Evacuating refugees - Nope Spying on an ally - Bingo, jackpot, woo hoo. Israel, that's right we were spying on them. I suppose that if the US caught Isreali's spying on the US we would just ignore it, after all they are an ally. Not to mention the fact that the US is partially responsible for the incident too. Why send a ship into a war zone? Before someone shows up and says it was a US Navy blah, blah, blah, remember the US Navy mistook a 747 for an F-14 flying out of Iran not so long ago, that was done by an Aegis class cruiser, and the US killed every person on that passenger plane when it was shot down. If you wanna play James Bond, you take certain risks. Guess they met Dr. No. They knew the risks going in. If the US is not ready for the consequences of being caught spying, maybe we shouldn't spy on other people. EDIT- I meant Iran and originally posted Iraq.
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Sorry, but got to say you got the best take on this thing so far, you are right on the mark, and it may hurt to hear it but, it is correct as far as the show on tv showed it. We may have been were we should not have been, international waters, bullshit, a lot can be done from there, and we all know how wishy washy, the US policy can be. Sorry but we got a bloody nose, and probably deserved it. Our country deserved it, not those poor sailors. But you go where they send you, so who is at fault , the USA.
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:30:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: We may have been were we should not have been, international waters, bullshit, a lot can be done from there, and we all know how wishy washy, the US policy can be. Sorry but we got a bloody nose, and probably deserved it. Our country deserved it, not those poor sailors. But you go where they send you, so who is at fault , the USA.
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[b]That's the spirit of an 'Israel Firster' !! It was the fault of the USA !! Bet those rotten guys from CIA were flying those Israeli jets and manning those Israeli Motor Torpedos.[/b]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:39:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:43:34 PM EDT
Post from shooter69 -
And here's the part most defenders tend to overlook: The Israelis KNEW the Liberty was coming and WARNED our ambassador in the week before against bringing it any closer. Their motives are their own and do not have to be supplied to prove anything. They knew it was coming; they didn't want it there. That's enough of a motive for me.
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That is the first time that I have ever heard the story that you just related. Do you have any citation for that story, or is it just something that you'd heard? I am interested in every story being told about the USS Liberty, and I need to find where you got the info that Israel [u]knew[/u] that the USS Liberty (1) was coming, and (2) was going to be spying on them. You see, we know precisely WHY the USS Liberty was in the general location in which it was on June 8, 1967. It was sent there to monitor air traffic from some Egyptian Air Force bombers (which were Soviet-built) to see if actual Egyptians were flying them, or if they were being flown by actual Soviet military pilots! The latter proved to be the case, of course. The USS Liberty was not in the vicinity of the Six Day War for any reason other than to spy on the Soviets and their Egyptian allies. This is confirmed by the fact that several days prior to June 8, 1967, the USS Liberty made an unscheduled stop in Gibraltar to pick up some Arabic-speaking intelligence officers to be used for interpreting Arabic language air traffic communications. Again, [b]shooter69[/b], look at the transcript of the Court of Naval Inquiry of Jun 10, 1967. The first part of the hearing concerned the misdirected signal that was supposed to be sent to the USS Liberty, advising it to leave the area and remain no closer than 100 nautical miles to the UAR and Israel. The message was only delivered to the USS Liberty after the attack! So when the US Naval attache, as well as the US's UN ambassador, told the Israelis that there were no US ships within 100 miles of the Egyptian coast, the Israelis were certain that the USS Liberty could not have been a US ship! Here is the citation to the transcript: [url]http://www.ussliberty.org/nci.txt[/url] From the site: [Testimony of Captain Leonard Robert Raish, Assistant Chief of Staff for Communications, U. S. Naval Forces, Europe.] [4] Q. From the information in the exhibits, was USS LIBERTY at the time of the attack, at the position that she was ordered to proceed to? A. [b]Yes, however, she did not receive two key messages which in effect canceled the orders under which she was operating.[/b] Q. Which are the two key messages you are referring to. A. JCS 080110Z and COMSIXTHFLT 080917Z. Q. Will you please explain to the Court, in a narrative manner, the substance of these messages and the applicability of the messages to USS LIBERTY ? A. LIBERTY was operating pursuant to a JCS message, 011545Z, June 67, which directed her to proceed to position 32o North, 33 East. These orders were later modified by JCS 072230Z, which specified that the operating area specified in JCS 011545Z was for guidance only and may be varied as local conditions dictate. This message also indicated "change the CPA to UAR to 20 NM and Israel 15 NM. The next message, JCS 080110Z, [b]a Top Secret message directed USCINCEUR to change the operating area of LIBERTY such that she remained [u]at least 100 miles off the coast of Syria, Israel, and UAR[/u], and at least 25 miles off the coast of Cyprus[/b]. This message was also info to several addees including CINCUSNAVEUR, COMSIXTHFLT, and USS LIBERTY. Action on this message was directed to CONSIXTHFLT. Q. Is there any information available that LIBERTY received the JCS message 080110Z? A. [b]The LIBERTY did not receive that message.[/b] Q. On what basis do you form that opinion? A. I form that opinion on the information received from COMSIXTHFLT, who had queried the Captain of the LIBERTY, COMMSIXTHFLT 101205Z. Q. [b]In other words, it is clear and certain that USS LIBERTY did not receive the message directing it to stay outside of 100 miles of the coast?[/b] A. Yes. Additionally, COMSIXFLT, by his 080917Z repeated the substance [5] of the JCS 080110Z when he directed the LIBERTY to comply with the later message. Q. What response to indicated from the LIBERTY? A. [b]The LIBERTY did not receive that message either.[/b] Q. As a communications specialist, will you please advise the Court of your opinion predicated on the exhibits in evidence, why these two messages were not received by LIBERTY? A. Yes. The analysis reveals that the JCS message, 080110Z, was erroneously routed by the communications center serving the JCS to NAVCOMSTAPHIL for delivery to USS LIBERTY. At 080449 NAVCOMSTAPHIL took the correct action and re-routed JCS 080110Z to NAVCOMSTA MOROCCO for delivery to LIBERTY. [b]Up to the current time this message has not arrived at NAVCOMSTA MOROCCO, and we are still attempting to trace the reason for non-delivery to NAVCOMSTA MOROCCO.[/b] COMSIXTHFLT's 080917Z which directed LIBERTY to comply with JCS 080110Z and essentially repeated its text as well, was sent from the LITTLE ROCK at 081058. The elapsed time in getting this message off the ship was about one hour and 45 minutes. NAVCOMSTA MOROCCO routed COMSIXTHFLT's message to Asmara via San Pablo Spain Defense Communication System - USAF major relay. At 081200, COMSIXTHFLT's message was received by the U. S. Army Communications Center at Asmara for further relay to NAVCOMMSTA ASMARA for placing on the broadcast to USS LIBERTY. At 081215Z the U. S. Army Communications Canter Asmara relayed the COMSIXTHTFLT message erroneously to NAVCOMMSTA GREECE for relay to LIBERTY. At 081506, and there is some question about the preciseness of this time, NAVCOMMSTA GREECE returned the COMSIXTHFLT message back to the U. S. Army Communications Center Asmara. At 081510 U. S. Army Communications Center Asmara then relayed the COMSIXTHFLT message correctly to NAVCOMMSTA Asmara and it was placed on the broadcast at 081525. [b]Clearly, LIBERTY had not received this message as she was hit at least three hours before.[/b] Q. In recapitulation, the official records from CINCUSNAVEUR, which you have read into these proceedings, indicate that at the time USS LIBERTY [6] was under attack, she had not received either of these two messages, COMSIXTHFLT 080817Z and JCS 080110Z? A. Yes, that is correct." There you have it. The USS Liberty was not even supposed to be where it was located at the time that the first IDF fighter aircraft arrived. Eric The(Historical)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:45:59 PM EDT
[b]Now I know you 'Israel Firsters' are a little disappointed that the USS Liberty survived with 'only' 34 dead and 171 wounded so here's a little something to make you feel extra warm and fuzzy about 'your' IDF !![/b] "Earlier that day the Israelis had massacred civilians and prisoners in the desert; now they were prepared to ensure that no American survived the sinking of the Liberty." "As soon as the lifeboats hit the water they were sunk. They (the Israelis) would shoot at us for target practice, it seemed like. They (the Israelis)wanted to kill and maim and murder anyone they could........" Excerpted from "Body of Secrets", Doubleday, 2001, Page 219. [b]Got to make an 'Israel Firster' PROUD !![/b]
Link Posted: 8/11/2002 7:50:52 PM EDT
Sorry, [b]shooter69[/b], but I got to reading the rest of your post and found this:
We were ready for the consequences. Our six fleet sent a dozen f-4's from the CV 'Saratoga'. The Israelis then acknowledged their mistake and promised to render aid to the liberty - and so the jets were recalled. They did no such thing and over the next two hours the torpedo boats went into action.
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What BULLSHIT place on the Internet did you find this piece of shit? I'mAFrigginIdiot.com? [:D] The squadrons were recalled upon orders from Washington 'at the highest levels.' And, according to CO McGonagle's testimony, the Israeli motor boats offered assistance to the stricken vessel! BTW, how were the F-4s supposed to render aid to the ship? Land on its deck? Please cite you sources for this dreck. Eric The(Incredible)Hun[>]:)]
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