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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:33:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Damn. 
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250 It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh
This is why we have lights on our longarms...
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:35:02 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification. I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making. Hey, but M4carbine is for the elite, serious shooter. Ar15.com is fore airsoft. Right? |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:36:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Hey, but M4carbine is for the elite, serious shooter. Ar15.com is fore airsoft. Right? Dont forget dudes who set up real fighting carbines properly, and not just for looks.....................  |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:37:17 AM EDT
[#4]
I don't think this automatically invalidates any of Sonny's expertise, but I think it does show how silly and 'overly tactical' all these courses are becoming for regular joes who will never have need of these kind of skills. It's like paying for a 3 day course on Brazilian Jujitsu and being taught techniques that require months or years of experience.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:38:16 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: Hey, but M4carbine is for the elite, serious shooter. Ar15.com is fore airsoft. Right? Dont forget dudes who set up real fighting carbines properly, and not just for looks..................... M4 has more beautiful firearms than this site. That's where I go for Glock custom ideas. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:38:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey, but M4carbine is for the elite, serious shooter. Ar15.com is fore airsoft. Right? Dont forget dudes who set up real fighting carbines properly, and not just for looks..................... talk like that and they will make your account disappear. 
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:39:13 AM EDT
[#7]
Why are we talking about Grant and M4C? I don't see where they were involved.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:39:22 AM EDT
[#8]
There are a lot of idiots in the training business, and even some decent practitioners who have no business being instructors.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:41:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Dude. Matching FDE totally gets you +2 accuracy. Quoted: Hey, but M4carbine is for the elite, serious shooter. Ar15.com is fore airsoft. Right? Dont forget dudes who set up real fighting carbines properly, and not just for looks..................... |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:41:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Damn.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250 It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh
Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses. I've never taken a CQB/HD class without it. Every instructor that I have trained with requires it. This is beyond fucked up!!! |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:43:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.
I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making. Any links to the original posts? Inquiring minds want to know. I'm working on additional intel... |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:43:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Dang. Prayers for his recovery.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:44:14 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Its happened before, once at the NTI. Stressed out student/practitioners are very dangerous in a live fire shoot house. The RO needs to be trained and ready at all times to physically restrain a shooter in those situations, I have had to. A shoot house may exacerbate the stress level and require "extra, extra" attention, but in my experience instructors and RO's have to be "tuned in" and ready to physically take control of the firearm (keep the student from completing a turn with a loaded gun, etc) in almost any situation. You'd be amazed at some of the stupid shit I've seen people try to do during even more basic classes than running a shoothouse. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:45:37 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Whats the point in this? Why train to shoot targets you cant see? I don't know shit about this kind of training, and I'm just some random person on an internet forum. But if I had to guess, it's because it makes the students feel like badasses when they shoot targets they can't see, and so there's a lot of money to be made from the Watler Mitty crowd if you provide this kind of training. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:46:28 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses. Would have still hit him. What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them? Keeping in mind that this is a guy who bad mouthes American TTP's and then this happens. You will find him tucking, rolling, diving, shooting while standing on students and doing pushups on AK's.  Ray Charles could have seen this coming! In all of my life I have never heard of shooting in the fucking dark with no way of ID'ing your target. It's called low-light for a fucking reason.
This is disgraceful! |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:47:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
He took responsibility, but didn't necessarily pull the trigger. I'm assuming the other student did the shooting? NO HE DID THE SHOOTING! not once, not twice but three fucking times! |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:48:36 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its happened before, once at the NTI. Stressed out student/practitioners are very dangerous in a live fire shoot house. The RO needs to be trained and ready at all times to physically restrain a shooter in those situations, I have had to. A shoot house may exacerbate the stress level and require "extra, extra" attention, but in my experience instructors and RO's have to be "tuned in" and ready to physically take control of the firearm (keep the student from completing a turn with a loaded gun, etc) in almost any situation. You'd be amazed at some of the stupid shit I've seen people try to do during even more basic classes than running a shoothouse. And I very much agree. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:58:48 AM EDT
[#18]
Derp all around. I feel bad for the guy who got hit.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:59:51 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them? This x87. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:04:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them? This x87. Death Blossom Level 2: Indoor |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:14:40 AM EDT
[#21]
the fuck up here is not that he fired with no light. thousands of shootings every year occur in low or little light without a white light.
the fuck up is: 1. not accounting for the where abouts of the students and the other instructor 2. lack of communication between instructors. remember what assume means? 3. lack of immediate and direct communication between the instructor who was shot and the shooters at the start of the shooting. at the sound of the 1st bang the other instructor and student should have been screaming cease fire at the top of their lungs. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:18:56 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
the fuck up here is not that he fired with no light. thousands of shootings every year occur in low or little light without a white light. the fuck up is: 1. not accounting for the where abouts of the students and the other instructor 2. lack of communication between instructors. remember what assume means? 3. lack of immediate and direct communication between the instructor who was shot and the shooters at the start of the shooting. at the sound of the 1st bang the other instructor and student should have been screaming cease fire at the top of their lungs. Most "shooters" are running .9 -.13 splits, so in other words the shooting is faster than you can possibly speak/shout/scream. The incident was probably over before anyone knew what the fuck had happened. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:22:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
. Most "shooters" are running .9 -.13 splits, so in other words the shooting is faster than you can possibly speak/shout/scream. The incident was probably over before anyone knew what the fuck had happened. Perhaps they could have hit the deck as soon as the door blew open. Not trying to MMQB, but damn, this just sucks all around.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:35:44 AM EDT
[#24]
There is no excuse. IDing target is paramount, though I do understand practicing target ID and aquisition in a darkened, not blacked out, environs without additional light, these things do fail sometimes, regardless, you do not run a shoot house that has uncontrolled access and you do not run thru any live fire course without someone verifying that the course is clear, if the lights are out that safety person should be wielding a serious light source, regardless of conditions every inch should be looked over. It's no different than walking up to a firing line at any range and blazing away because the line was empty which has happened to me, and countless others no doubt. People turn up in the damnedest places, even if the class is acounted for, doesn't mean no body is "downrange".
Not removing any blame from the shooter as they are ultimately accountable for every round they fire but what good is an AAR walk thru in a darkened facility with no light? Activities involving firearms are full of egos, instructors and "professionals" can be some of the worst. How many people here have seen or heard an individual brag or demonstrate their amazing speed on a course that they've shot hundreds of times, disregarding pretty much every rule because they know where things should be. Its sorry training, its not how things work in the real world, and reality will catch you if you think it is. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:40:40 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yup. Larry "uncertified" him during the shitstorm then added him back later.
 ... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!WTF? I saw Grant's public apology and Larry's public "dismissal" of Grant but never realized he took him back into the fold (quietly, no doubt).  Sigh.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:41:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: He took responsibility, but didn't necessarily pull the trigger. I'm assuming the other student did the shooting? NO HE DID THE SHOOTING! not once, not twice but three fucking times! Ah. Well, you can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs! |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:46:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
. Most "shooters" are running .9 -.13 splits, so in other words the shooting is faster than you can possibly speak/shout/scream. The incident was probably over before anyone knew what the fuck had happened. Perhaps they could have hit the deck as soon as the door blew open. Not trying to MMQB, but damn, this just sucks all around. The fuck does split times have to do with this? They were in the second room. Here is a drawing for you 
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:48:21 AM EDT
[#28]
I really need to pick up some soft armor for the public shooting range I visit occasionally.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:48:51 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Always wear body armor when training. Yep. Having a set of plates for training classes was some of the rationale behind getting my first set. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:49:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Perhaps they could have hit the deck as soon as the door blew open. Not trying to MMQB, but damn, this just sucks all around. Action is faster than reaction. In all likelihood, both student and the instructor had a momentary vapor-lock, where their brain is struggling to process the data and the delay in implementing that data into a decision to act. In all the entries I have done, the suspects are usually still caught in that loop, with a dumb-founded look on their face. It takes a metric fuckton of training to speed up the OODA loop and even then the best guys can still get caught flat-footed. From what I read initially, at least Sonny is owning the fuck-up. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:49:59 AM EDT
[#31]
"Its happened before, once at the NTI. "
Year? Links? Info? |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:53:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
The fuck does split times have to do with this? They were in the second room. Here is a drawing for you http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h270/dreadMullets/2012-11-09_12-43-51_702.jpg Assuming adjacent or cross-hall rooms, entry and engagement into room 1 with 2 targets, 2-3 seconds. 3 seconds would be a sloooow shooter. The victims are still struggling to catch up to what is happening by the time the shooter has made entry into room 2 and engaged. Shit happens, especially when you don't follow safety protocols. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:56:10 AM EDT
[#33]
Prayers for that guy.
But damn. Unless you are getting paid to take these risks or CQB is part of your daily job, its stupid as a civilian to play these games. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:59:53 AM EDT
[#34]
The Drama Llama demands that your produce this discussion!
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification. I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:04:51 AM EDT
[#35]
Idiots playing games. Will happen again.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:08:09 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: . Most "shooters" are running .9 -.13 splits, so in other words the shooting is faster than you can possibly speak/shout/scream. The incident was probably over before anyone knew what the fuck had happened. Perhaps they could have hit the deck as soon as the door blew open. Not trying to MMQB, but damn, this just sucks all around. The fuck does split times have to do with this? They were in the second room. Here is a drawing for you http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h270/dreadMullets/2012-11-09_12-43-51_702.jpg I really feel sorry for the guy that got shot, what a horrible thing to have happen to you. I also feel bad for LMAOing in a thread about it. That drawing is classic. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:08:24 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses. Would have still hit him. What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them? Art of the tactical UTFL (Use the Force Luke)
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:10:40 AM EDT
[#38]
What do you really expect from this guy? Anybody see the stupid shit he teaches? Like every other Russian selling shit in the US, zero verifiable background.
"but he was really cool, and, ... and at the bar after class he told really bad ass stories about killing people..." |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:16:24 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
But damn. Unless you are getting paid to take these risks or CQB is part of your daily job, its stupid as a civilian to play these games. I don't know about that. I'd like to take a shoothouse class, not because I want to be a CQB super badass ninja, but rather to apply the concepts learned to using my AR in a self-defense setting. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:38:11 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
. Any links to the original posts? Inquiring minds want to know. He (Grant Timberlake) owns the site where it all took place. What would you guess happened to the evidence/links?  Didn't realize it went down there. Of course its long gone by now How long ago was this?
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules" Is there a story here i missed out on? Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.
I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making. Any links to the original posts? Inquiring minds want to know. I'm working on additional intel... That would be great. I'm sure someone took screencaps or something. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:40:34 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
. Didn't realize it went down there. Of course its long gone by now How long ago was this?
<snip> I'd guess a year and a half or so. Aimless would know, as he's buddies with Timberlake. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:40:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
"Its happened before, once at the NTI. " Year? Links? Info? I remember this. Maybe 2002/2003? I know guys who were down there at the time. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:43:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Why are we talking about Grant and M4C? I don't see where they were involved. Completely unrelated, but some people here can't help themselves. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:50:34 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Always wear body armor when training. ESPECIALLY CQB. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:54:20 AM EDT
[#45]
TAGscribe
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:56:10 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Why are we talking about Grant and M4C? I don't see where they were involved. Completely unrelated, but some people here can't help themselves. The title says "vetting instructors" I pointed out the danger of failing to do so. Hard to believe you could not see the connection. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:56:27 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
. Most "shooters" are running .9 -.13 splits, so in other words the shooting is faster than you can possibly speak/shout/scream. The incident was probably over before anyone knew what the fuck had happened. Perhaps they could have hit the deck as soon as the door blew open. Not trying to MMQB, but damn, this just sucks all around. Even moreso the shooting began in ROOM 1 the Injuries occurred in ROOM 2... . |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 11:03:19 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why are we talking about Grant and M4C? I don't see where they were involved. Completely unrelated, but some people here can't help themselves. The title says "vetting instructors" I pointed out the danger of failing to do so. Hard to believe you could not see the connection. I see the connection just perfectly. The connection is that you never miss an opportunity to continue what's now been an 8 year old "feud" between the two forums, especially if it involves mentioning Grant or Vickers. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 11:04:31 AM EDT
[#49]
Idiots playing games. WILL happen again.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 11:07:23 AM EDT
[#50]
Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second. http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp |
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