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Posted: 8/6/2002 4:00:13 AM EDT
[size=4]Briefing Depicted Saudis as Enemies[/size=4] [b]Ultimatum Urged To Pentagon Board[/b] By Thomas E. Ricks Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, August 6, 2002; Page A01 A briefing given last month to a top Pentagon advisory board described Saudi Arabia as an enemy of the United States, and recommended that U.S. officials give it an ultimatum to stop backing terrorism or face seizure of its oil fields and its financial assets invested in the United States. [b]"The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot-soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader,"[/b] stated the explosive briefing. It was presented on July 10 to the Defense Policy Board, a group of prominent intellectuals and former senior officials that advises the Pentagon on defense policy. [b]"Saudi Arabia supports our enemies and attacks our allies,"[/b] said the briefing prepared by Laurent Murawiec, a Rand Corp. analyst. A talking point attached to the last of 24 briefing slides went even further, describing Saudi Arabia as [b]"the kernel of evil, the prime mover, the most dangerous opponent" in the Middle East.[/b] The briefing did not represent the views of the board or official government policy, and in fact runs counter to the present stance of the U.S. government that Saudi Arabia is a major ally in the region. [b]Yet it also represents a point of view that has growing currency within the Bush administration -- especially on the staff of Vice President Cheney and in the Pentagon''s civilian leadership -- and among neoconservative writers and thinkers closely allied with administration policymakers.[/b] One administration official said opinion about Saudi Arabia is changing rapidly within the U.S. government. "People used to rationalize Saudi behavior," he said. "You don''t hear that anymore. There''s no doubt that people are recognizing reality and recognizing that Saudi Arabia is a problem." The decision to bring the anti-Saudi analysis before the Defense Policy Board also appears tied to the growing debate over whether to launch a U.S. military attack to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. The chairman of the board is former Pentagon official Richard N. Perle, one of the most prominent advocates in Washington of just such an invasion. The briefing argued that removing Hussein would spur change in Saudi Arabia -- which, it maintained, is the larger problem because of its role in financing and supporting radical Islamic movements. Perle did not return calls to comment. A Rand spokesman said Murawiec, a former adviser to the French Ministry of Defense who now analyzes international security affairs for Rand, would not be available to comment. "Neither the presentations nor the Defense Policy Board members'' comments reflect the official views of the Department of Defense," Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke said in a written statement issued last night. "Saudi Arabia is a long-standing friend and ally of the United States. The Saudis cooperate fully in the global war on terrorism and have the Department''s and the Administration''s deep appreciation." Murawiec said in his briefing that the United States should demand that Riyadh stop funding fundamentalist Islamic outlets around the world, stop all anti-U.S. and anti-Israeli statements in the country, and "prosecute or isolate those involved in the terror chain, including in the Saudi intelligence services." [b]If the Saudis refused to comply, the briefing continued, Saudi oil fields and overseas financial assets should be "targeted," although exactly how was not specified.[/b] The report concludes by linking regime change in Iraq to altering Saudi behavior. This view, popular among some neoconservative thinkers, is that once a U.S. invasion has removed Hussein from power, a friendly successor regime would become a major exporter of oil to the West. That oil would diminish U.S. dependence on Saudi energy exports, and so -- in this view -- permit the U.S. government finally to confront the House of Saud for supporting terrorism. "The road to the entire Middle East goes through Baghdad," said the administration official, who is hawkish on Iraq. "Once you have a democratic regime in Iraq, like the ones we helped establish in Germany and Japan after World War II, there are a lot of possibilities." Of the two dozen people who attended the Defense Policy Board meeting, only one, former secretary of state Henry A. Kissinger, spoke up to object to the anti-Saudi conclusions of the briefing, according to sources who were there. Some members of the board clearly agreed with Kissinger''s dismissal of the briefing and others did not. One source summarized Kissinger''s remarks as, "The Saudis are pro-American, they have to operate in a difficult region, and ultimately we can manage them." Kissinger declined to comment on the meeting. He said his consulting business does not advise the Saudi government and has no clients that do large amounts of business in Saudi Arabia. "I don''t consider Saudi Arabia to be a strategic adversary of the United States," Kissinger said. "They are doing some things I don''t approve of, but I don''t consider them a strategic adversary." See remainder of article at:[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html[/url] Eric The(CheckingItOut)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:16:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:22:51 AM EDT
Who gives a rat's rear if the general population loves us or not? A generation of listening to American rock and dressing like Britney Spears will defang even the most vile serpent! It's what their government does that causes so much problems in the area. Eric The(CivilizationComesAtAPrice)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:22:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: "I don''t consider Saudi Arabia to be a strategic adversary of the United States," Kissinger said. "They are doing some things I don''t approve of, but I don''t consider them a strategic adversary." Eric The(CheckingItOut)Hun[>]:)]
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Idiot...This from the same guy that brought us the foreign policy "victories" of the '70s..These CFR clowns are almost without exception all alike.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:26:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: A generation of listening to American rock and dressing like Britney Spears will defang even the most vile serpent! Eric The(CivilizationComesAtAPrice)Hun[>]:)]
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Heh,heh our secret weapon...."Culture" USA style!! Yep, we got class when it comes to culture......
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:34:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 4:36:44 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:35:08 AM EDT
Glad the idiots are waking up! I have railed against the Saudi assholes for years. They are not now nor ever have been our allies. In 91 they were just letting us save their worthless assses, a mistake! We should let Sadman have SA AND Kuwait, then bomb the whole mess to glass! Who gives a flying F*** what Kissinger thinks? He has mostly been wrong about everything and thinks his own crap doesn't stink. What a jackass! I still think he is an enemy agent.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:40:32 AM EDT
You know, [b]liberty86[/b], that the Soviets began importing certain 'decadent' American movies in the 1970s in an effort to show how rotten the West had become. These movies were usually the typical gangsta- type movies, such as 'Shaft' and others. The Soviet authorities thought it would show the Americans and their culture in a very bad light. Unfortunately for them, what the audiences often saw was a poor man going to his refrigerator for a beer, and when opened, the poor man's refrigerator was stocked with such food and drink as would make a Commissar red with envy. [b]So it backfired![/b] 'Even the poorest of black Americans live better than we do!' was the typical moviegoer's response. And the [u]cars[/u] that those hoodlums drove.... Eric The(YouGetThePicture)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:50:54 AM EDT
I'm not real sure using the soviets as an example is such a good comparison to the current situation. After all, it was US bankers that helped set lenin up in business to begin with.... Kinda funny when you think about it. You create external "threats" to control your own population. Bankers did the same with Hitler....
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:27:59 AM EDT
The Saudis are our enemies. All 20 hijackers were Saudi. The Palys are Israels enemies. A Paly has never committed any overt action against American interests (with the exception of Hebrew University, where those students PLACED THEMSELVES in a war zone. Knowingly. Intentionally.) And the beauty of being America is we get to kill ALL of them. Even if they aren't really our enemies.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:29:47 AM EDT
About those photographs of ten year old boys with Kalashnikovs... It will take only a few years and a dose of Britney Spears to change most of those boys' minds. The old men with guns and hate don't stand a chance against testosterone and a bare midriff. Our best weapon is western culture. That's why the power-mad mullahs hate us so much. It's co-opting their power. Look at what makes middle-eastern crazies foam at the mouth. Freedom, women and Hollywood. Isreal is the local focus of western civilization. The religion thing (as we define it) comes second.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:29:51 AM EDT
I for one ..would find it most amusing if Saudi were an 11th hour substitution in place of Iraq... [b]Surrrrpriiiisssse[/b]hehehehe
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:39:32 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
(with the exception of Hebrew University, where those students PLACED THEMSELVES in a war zone. Knowingly. Intentionally.)
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[b]Sweet Jesus![/b] (and I mean that devotionally) [b]garandman[/b], are you never gonna feel the least bit of remorse over the murder of your countrymen, [u]however[/u] it occurred? Surely you must feel remorse over the deaths of United States servicemen in Afghanistan, and they placed themselves 'knowingly' and 'intentionally' in a war zone. So it's only young Jewish American civilians that you feel no remorse over? But these young Jewish Americans went to an area of Jerusalem that prided itself on never having sustained a terrorist attack. Where the university had purposefully asked Israeli Police to stay away from in order not to make its Arab students feel the least bit oppressed. So tell us, when your sister-in-law was living in Israel, attempting to spread the Gospel of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, had she been gunned down or blown up by these POS terrorists, would you: (1.) Feel any remorse, since she knowingly and intentionally placed herself in a war zone for the sake of the Gospel? (2.) Expect your fellow citizens to mourn and grieve for the senseless murder of your sister-in-law, since she knowingly and intentionally placed hereself in a war zone? If the loss of loved ones by American families doesn't cause you to switch sides, then what will it take? Another Sept 11th? Eric The(YouLive,YouLearn,Hopefully)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:46:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:56:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: [b]Sweet Jesus![/b] (and I mean that devotionally)
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Even the Torah PROHIBITS "taking the name of the Lord thy God in vain. You owe someone an apology, and it ain't me. Or does your rabbi tell you its OK when its "just Jesus" that you profane the name of????
[b]garandman[/b], are you never gonna feel the least bit of remorse over the murder of your countrymen, [u]however[/u] it occurred? Surely you must feel remorse over the deaths of United States servicemen in Afghanistan, and they placed themselves 'knowingly' and 'intentionally' in a war zone.?
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Illegitimate comparison. Only Bill Clinton could equate going to school with serving in the armed forces. And you sir, are no Bill Clinton. The better comparison is journalists in a war zone. Did you laugh at Gerkraldo when the bullets whizzed past his head??
So it's only young Jewish American civilians that you feel no remorse over?
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I won't dignify that with a response. Its beneath you as a human being, AND your position as a Mod. Not to mention false.
But these young Jewish Americans went to an area of Jerusalem that prided itself on never having sustained a terrorist attack. Where the university had purposefully asked Israeli Police to stay away from in order not to make its Arab students feel the least bit oppressed.
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gee - they went into a gun free zone, in a nation smaller than MOST US states, and expected terrorists NOT to attack there, when terrorists had already attacked prolly not more than 50 miles away? I'm leaning back toward "stupid" as far as what they were. (se my earlier posts, yesterday) Apparently, they thought it important to get an education in a war zone. Far be it from me to deny them that. But it WILL mitigate my outrage. Thru history, Christians have died for their beliefs. NOWHERE in Scripture does the Bible command us to feel outrage. We are to WILLINGLY give our lives for our Saviour. If they willing gave their lives for an education, apparently they found that education worth trading their life for.
So tell us, when your sister-in-law was living in Israel, attempting to spread the Gospel of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, had she been gunned down or blown up by these POS terrorists, would you: (1.) Feel any remorse, since she knowingly and intentionally placed herself in a war zone for the sake of the Gospel? (2.) Expect your fellow citizens to mourn and grieve for the senseless murder of your sister-in-law, since she knowingly and intentionally placed hereself in a war zone?
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My sister-in-law was only there on a mission trip. She is no better than Paul the Apostle, or Peter, or Jesus Christ Himself. They all died for the Gospel. She and I are no better than they. Tell me Eric, if I'm supposed to feel outrage at these things, should I feel outrage at the Jews who killed my Saviour, who said "Chrsit's blood be on us, and on our children??" Should I????
If the loss of loved ones by American families doesn't cause you to switch sides, then what will it take? Another Sept 11th? Eric The(YouLive,YouLearn,Hopefully)Hun[>]:)]
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You keep trying to put me on the Arabs side. I'm not. Tho you try it a million times, it still won't be true.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:57:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: If the loss of loved ones by American families doesn't cause you to switch sides, then what will it take? Another Sept 11th? Eric The(YouLive,YouLearn,Hopefully)Hun[>]:)]
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And THAT's the whole point - Palys were NOT responsible for Sept 11. Yet you want them dead, as if they were responsible for it.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 5:59:49 AM EDT
Strategically Iraq needs to be compromised first to give us the mid-east oil reserves that will allow Saudi Arabia's fields to be shut down temporarily. Iraq is the softer target, easier diplomatically and easier to restore energy production. Of course if Iraq's energy production becomes American controlled, Saudi Arabia may see the writing on the wall and become our great friend again. Kissinger was WRONG in 1972 and he's WRONG again today for the same damn reason. In 1972 with VietNam winding down, petroleum demand falling and Iran's oil producing less revenue, the Pahlavi's wanted to buy F-14's and more M60 tanks but found themselves short of cash. The "oil crisis" of 1973 was about raising the price of oil since so much less was being used. Wars are expensive. But some industries enjoy them. Kissinger's plan to nationalize the American-developed oilfields gave the Shah funds to bankroll the products of Kissinger's power base (military hardware menufacturers).
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:02:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 6:04:48 AM EDT by redray]
ETH, although i do feel for the American (as well as Israeli) victims that got killed in the latest bombing, to compare them to American military members, is hardly fair. the kids had a choice. the military members [b]do not.[/b] like garandman said, they knowingly went there. they knew the situation in the country.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:08:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Palys were NOT responsible for Sept 11. Yet you want them dead, as if they were responsible for it.
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Originally posted by liberty86: See how easy it was for Hitler to paint a whole group of people with the broad brush? We see the same thing right here in our forums....
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Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:12:02 AM EDT
Won't happen unless the govt of Saudi itself declared war on us. Same reason why support for Israel won't go away. Follow me here. The US likes to keep "an interest" in most parts of the world. In this particularly volatile part of the world, the US has to keep TWO opposing interests. Saudi, however much they hate us, fund, train, and reward terror, however many people they execute for reasons of state established religion - are the most like a real nation and least like a gang of thugs that happens to be the strongest at the moment, as all the other nations in the region have for a government. We can not support only Israel, or the whole region would engulfed in unrestrained biochemical warfare, and we'd be the target of some of it. We can't support only Saudi, because the whole region would be engulfed in unrestrained biochemical warfare (once Israel was gone, they'd be killing each other again), and once again, the Great Satan would be the target of some of it. Since we have to support one arab nation (pick one) - Saudi is still the least offensive horse to back.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:12:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The-Immortal:
Originally Posted By garandman: Palys were NOT responsible for Sept 11. Yet you want them dead, as if they were responsible for it.
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Originally posted by liberty86: See how easy it was for Hitler to paint a whole group of people with the broad brush? We see the same thing right here in our forums....
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By Moderators and Staff Members, no less. Its shameful. I'm ashamed FOR them.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:14:40 AM EDT
Gman I guess if your sister had been killed when she visited Israel it would have been her fault for being there?...this imo is a bit like blaming Sharon Tate for her own murder by being at home the night the Manson family came calling... The Romans crucified Christ why dont you pick on Italians for a while... The Palys are most certainly responsible for 9-11 in the way that all Islam is responsible Hamas , PLO, the PA, Islamic Jihad ,Al-Qaeda ,Black Sept... Lybia, Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, etc etc etc...anyone who gives aid comfort or support to the enemy is the enemy...in every war...therefore the Palestinians are our enemies...and the enemies of our staunchiest ally in the middle east...Israel... You fought in Vietnam?...I'v often wonderd on whose side...?
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:22:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 6:25:01 AM EDT by sesat_ram]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Murawiec said in his briefing that the United States should demand that Riyadh stop funding fundamentalist Islamic outlets around the world, [b]STOP ALL ANTI-U.S. AND ANTI-ISRAELI STATEMENTS IN THE COUNTRY[/b], and "prosecute or isolate those involved in the terror chain, including in the Saudi intelligence services."
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I'm good with this until this point. At a personal level, I don't like people who don't like me, but was good personal policy until... the end of high school? Do we really want to be asking other governments to silence their people? We should be slamming, say, China for silencing students and their anti-government protests; we lose the moral high ground by demanding that the Saudi government silence citizens and their anti-American protests. If we actively advocate the suppression of free speech overseas, how are we going to act at home? Hey guys, think with blood in your veins that isn't boiling... sure they hate us and and we may be justified in hating them, but wouldn't we give them the right to express their hatred for us? As long, of course, they're expressing their hatred (or dislike, pick your degree) verbally and not with violence. To bring it a little closer to home, we hate anti-RKBAers, but do we want the MMM silenced by the national guard and doused with CS gas? Okay, I suppose some of you dream of this but this is a free country and I will fight, yes FIGHT for peoples rights to air their views, even if it is against my views, or against me as a person. To extend this, I think I would fight for freedom for the people the worlds over. We participated in two world wars for this, I'm not going to forget the people who "humped their garands across Europe". Jeez what a rant, an off topic one at that. Next time, decaf. Edited to capitalize words since I couldn't get the bold tags to work.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:23:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Gman I guess if your sister had been killed when she visited Israel it would have been her fault for being there?...this imo is a bit like blaming Sharon Tate for her own murder by being at home the night the Manson family came calling... The Romans crucified Christ why dont you pick on Italians for a while... The Palys are most certainly responsible for 9-11 in the way that all Islam is responsible Hamas , PLO, the PA, Islamic Jihad ,Al-Qaeda ,Black Sept... Lybia, Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, etc etc etc...anyone who gives aid comfort or support to the enemy is the enemy...in every war...therefore the Palestinians are our enemies...and the enemies of our staunchiest ally in the middle east...Israel... You fought in Vietnam?...I'v often wonderd on whose side...?
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kinda harsh dont you think 9divdoc? not that im defending g-man, but if my sister had been there, yes, id say it was her fault. and again your comparison has cracks and fissures. apples and oranges buddy. Sharon Tate didnt know that her house was a danger to her at that point in time. the kids knew there was a war going on in Israel. see my point? and that Vietnam quip? drop it.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:25:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:28:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: The Palys are most certainly responsible for 9-11 in the way that all Islam is responsible Hamas , PLO, the PA, Islamic Jihad ,Al-Qaeda ,Black Sept... Lybia, Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, etc etc etc...anyone who gives aid comfort or support to the enemy is the enemy...in every war...therefore the Palestinians are our enemies...and the enemies of our staunchiest ally in the middle east...Israel...
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I think I've misinterpreted what you said, could you clarify this for me? It seems like you're saying that Palys are our enemies because they share the same religion as our enemies. Whoa.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:29:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: The Romans crucified Christ why dont you pick on Italians for a while...
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Historically, that is untrue. The Roman Prelate Pilate wished to release Chrsit. The Jewish attendees threatened Pilate that if he did that, they would tell Caesar Pilate was unloyal to teh emperor - a death sentence. They blackmailed him. Further, the Jewish leadership SPECIFICALLY accepted responsibility for Christ'smurder - "His blood be on us, and on our children. But you miss the whole point. I have no desire to assign blame and conjure up outrage for Christs death. My point was to Eric, that he wants me to feel outrage about 5 young Americans whose CHOICES cost them their lives. If I am to feel outrage over that, then logically I must ALSO feel outrage over the Jews who murdered Christ. I am being logically consistent in feeling outrage at neither. Eric however picks and chooses who is worth of his outrage. Appraently its only those who, feeling outrage for, will lead to more dead Paelstinians.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:36:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: The Romans crucified Christ why dont you pick on Italians for a while...
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Historically, that is untrue. The Roman Prelate Pilate wished to release Chrsit. The Jewish attendees threatened Pilate that if he did that, they would tell Caesar Pilate was unloyal to teh emperor - a death sentence. They blackmailed him. Pilate then washed his hands of the murder. Further, the Jewish leadership SPECIFICALLY accepted responsibility for Christ'smurder - "His blood be on us, and on our children. Both peter and Paul in the New testament SPECIFICALLY assigned blame to the Jews for Chrsit's murder. Their word is good enuf for me. But you miss the whole point. I have no desire to assign blame and conjure up outrage for Christs death. My point was to Eric, that he wants me to feel outrage about 5 young Americans whose CHOICES cost them their lives. If I am to feel outrage over that, then logically I must ALSO feel outrage over the Jews who murdered Christ, because Christ CHOSE to lay His life down. Christs CHOICES put Him on that cross.. I am being logically consistent in feeling outrage at neither. Eric however picks and chooses who is worthy of his outrage. Appraently its only those who, feeling outrage for, will lead to more dead Paelstinians.
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Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:36:09 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
Even the Torah PROHIBITS "taking the name of the Lord thy God in vain. You owe someone an apology, and it ain't me. Or does your rabbi tell you its OK when its "just Jesus" that you profane the name of????
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The Rabbis took this admonition to the extremes, which was not required by the Law. And, I dispute your interpretation of 'taking the Lord's name in vain.' I owe no one an apology, and surely not you.
Illegitimate comparison. Only Bill Clinton could equate going to school with serving in the armed forces. And you sir, are no Bill Clinton.
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Stupid response. Only Bill Clinton could argue that these [b]young American citizens[/b] were knowingly and intentionally going into a war zone! They were going to a school that was, by all accounts, immune from terrorist attacks. Besides which, your anger should be directed more at these bastards that killed your fellow countrymen, then at those fellow countrymen. You are a US citizen, are you not? Well, let's hear you say for the first time that you mourn and grieve for these American citizens, without any equivocation! Is that so blessed hard to do for you?
The better comparison is journalists in a war zone. Did you laugh at Gerkraldo when the bullets whizzed past his head??
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Nope, because p.o.s. that he is, he is still an American citizen doing his job to inform his fellow citizens what is happening on the other side of the earth.
I won't dignify that with a response. Its beneath you as a human being, AND your position as a Mod. Not to mention false.
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Well, well, well, that is the very first time that you've even hinted a bit of remorse, simply by saying it is 'false.' Now that you've been cornered, as it were. You're holding your tongue rather awkwardly in this situation, don't you think?
gee - they went into a gun free zone, in a nation smaller than MOST US states, and expected terrorists NOT to attack there, when terrorists had already attacked prolly not more than 50 miles away?
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They had never attacked the University before. Not during the first Intifadah, not during this second Intifadah. They had been led to believe that they were safe.
I'm leaning back toward "stupid" as far as what they were. (se my earlier posts, yesterday)
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Yes, it's quite the gentleman that you are to call [b]FIVE DEAD AMERICAN CITIZENS[/b] stupid. Would you call them stupid to their parents' faces? To their loved ones' faces? You know, Marla Bennett's fiance was an IDF soldier, would you dare call her stupid to him? I thought not![:D]
Apparently, they thought it important to get an education in a war zone. Far be it from me to deny them that. But it WILL mitigate my outrage.
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Well, it's very obvious that your outrage has been mitigated to the very point of apparent nonexistence! I would rather think that such terrorism as now stalks Israel, should be dealt with in a very heavy handed manner, and that the Israelis should continue in their normal lives with the least amount of disruption, if for no other reason, than to deny the Palestinians their hoped for collapse of Israeli society.
Thru history, Christians have died for their beliefs.
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Yes, but how does that relate here?
NOWHERE in Scripture does the Bible command us to feel outrage.
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So??? How does that apply to the issues we are discussing?
We are to WILLINGLY give our lives for our Saviour.
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Again, how does that apply to the issues here?
If they willing gave their lives for an education, apparently they found that education worth trading their life for.
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No one said they were willing to give their lives for an education, are you smoking crack this morning? What in the Hell are you talking about? You said that these [b]FIVE DEAD AMERICAN CITIZENS[/b] 'knowingly' and 'intentionally' went into a 'war zone.' I say they did no such thing.
My sister-in-law was only there on a mission trip.
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What? Going 'knowingly' and 'intentionally' into a 'war zone.'
She is no better than Paul the Apostle, or Peter, or Jesus Christ Himself. They all died for the Gospel. She and I are no better than they.
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Of course not, who said you were?
Tell me Eric, if I'm supposed to feel outrage at these things, should I feel outrage at the Jews who killed my Saviour, who said "Chrsit's blood be on us, and on our children??" Should I????
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Sure you should. The unfortunate problem that you face is that the particular Jews who said that and who participated in His death are all dead and have been for almost 2000 years. There is no earthly, or heavenly, reason for you to be outraged against their descendants! They had no part in that crime, at all. Still, you didn't answer my question. Had your sister-in-law been murdered during her sojourn in Israel, by Palestinian terrorists, would you feel remorse, and would you expect that other Americans should feel remorse, as well? You answer can only be 'yes' to both questions, and yet, you fail to give that same answer to the parents and loved ones of the [b]FIVE DEAD AMERICAN CITIZENS![/b] And would rather chide them on their choice of schools for their children! How very 'christian' of you. Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:37:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 8:04:04 AM EDT by 9divdoc]
Whose who of Terror Groups [url]http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/whoswho.htm[/url] RAF:Fixed link thanks RAF....
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:40:18 AM EDT
Apparently the 35 billion charachter limit per post has been removed in the most recent update.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:42:16 AM EDT
Yo dude!...
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Whose who of Terror Groups [url]http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/whoswho.htm/url]
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Nice try at the url cite... In a hurry this morning?? [:D]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:50:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Still, you didn't answer my question. Had your sister-in-law been murdered during her sojourn in Israel, by Palestinian terrorists, would you feel remorse, and would you expect that other Americans should feel remorse, as well? You answer can only be 'yes' to both questions, and yet, you fail to give that same answer to the parents and loved ones of the [b]FIVE DEAD AMERICAN CITIZENS![/b] >]:)]
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Don't try to tell me what my answers "can only" be. Its arrogant. She went to Israel at a time of almost complete peace. No violence. So if she had gotten killed, its apples and oranges to what's going on now. If she went over there now, INTO A WAR ZONE, to "get an education" and got killed, my main sadness would be for her children, and her husband (my brother) of whom she WILLINGLY DEPRIVED of her love, care, and affection for some temporal goal (education) Frankly, I'd think her selfish. And short sighted to what REALLY matters in life. And stupid for going into a war zone when there's THOUSANDS of other palces she could have gotten that education. Your assertion that campus proper was NOT a war zone when the ENTIRE region around it WAS a war zone is ludicrous. If she went over there TODAY on a mission trip, I'd have to assume God commanded her to go for the salvation of some Israelis souls. AT her funeral, I'd praise God that His will was done, commend her willingness to serve Him, even unto death, and seek to comfort my brother and his children. Don't tell me what I "MUST" think. You haven't the right.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:51:42 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
And THAT's the whole point - Palys were NOT responsible for Sept 11.
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No, they certainly were not, and no one, to my knowledge, has accused them of such. They were, however, certainly cheering and dancing in the streets when the news came out! They ululated all over themselves, in front of God and everyone, much to their leadership's embarrassment. Embarrassment, not in that these strong anti-US feelings were so rudely displayed, but that the feelings were so meticulously captured by Western cameras! 'Well, enough of that!' Palestinian leadership finally decreed! Enough celebrations? Nope, enough taking pictures of celebrations!
Yet you want them dead, as if they were responsible for it.
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Uh-oh, [b]garandman[/b], I do believe that you have broken one of the Ten Commandments saying what you did! When and where did I ever say that I wanted Palestinians dead? Ever? The Palestinians have much to answer for, but the attack of Sept. 11th is not one of them. The 'cheerleading' for Sept 11th, is. Don't worry about the 'bearing false witness' charge against you, [b]garandman[/b], I know this excellent Jewish lawyer who can get the charges dropped without you even having a record! Eric The(I'llAskHimTonight)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:55:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from garandman -
Yet you want them dead, as if they were responsible for it.
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Uh-oh, [b]garandman[/b], I do believe that you have broken one of the Ten Commandments saying what you did! When and where did I ever say that I wanted Palestinians dead? Ever? [>]:)]
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You INSIST we must continus funding Israel in their war, as if Americas interests are at stake, and its a necessary part of exacting justice from those repsonsible for Sept.11. The ONLY war they are currently fighting is against the Palstinians. THAT war IS killing Palestinians. Ergo, you want the US to fund the killing of Palestinains. Your lawyers "legalese" notwithstanding.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:05:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:10:10 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
She went to Israel at a time of almost complete peace. No violence.
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And when would that have been, [b]garandman[/b], I need dates to see the level of violence that was occurring at the time of her visit.
So if she had gotten killed, its apples and oranges to what's going on now.
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Well, pending your response to the preceding request for dates, let's just assume that Isreal was a land of milk and honey, overflowing with peace and brotherhood. If your sister-in-law was the very first victim of a renewed intifadah, there are some who would say: 'Stupid! How could she not have known that such things are always occurring in that part of the world?' How would you react to such a cruel, wanton and complete lack of pity and compassion for the loss of your sister-in-law? You can dance all you wish around this issue, but you will never be able to convince me that your lack of compassion is generated by something less than your concern for where these [b]FIVE DEAD AMERICAN CITIZENS[/b] went to school. Back in May, 1904, in Morocco, a certain naturalized American citizen, Ian Pedicaris, was kidnapped and held for ransom by a Berber chieftan/bandit by the name of Raisuli. When President Teddy Roosevelt was informed of this development, and learned that Raisuli had issued a ransom demand to the US Consulate, he had the following message telegraphed back to the US Consulate for delivery to Raisuli: [b]Pedicaris alive, or Raisuli dead.[/b] Within 24 hours of the Presidential telegram's transmission, a dazed, but unhurt, Ian Pedicaris was found wandering in the Casbah! Now [u]that[/u] is how we used to deal with foreign assaults and insults against US citizens. Nowadays, we have [b[garandman[/b], basically telling us that Pedicaris should never have ventured into that awful North African place, full of bandits and what-not, in the first place! And if he was kidnapped, shame on him, and shame on whoever decided that he should go there! So much for United States History 101! Eric The(BringBackTeddy!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:15:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redray:
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Gman I guess if your sister had been killed when she visited Israel it would have been her fault for being there?...this imo is a bit like blaming Sharon Tate for her own murder by being at home the night the Manson family came calling... The Romans crucified Christ why dont you pick on Italians for a while... The Palys are most certainly responsible for 9-11 in the way that all Islam is responsible Hamas , PLO, the PA, Islamic Jihad ,Al-Qaeda ,Black Sept... Lybia, Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, etc etc etc...anyone who gives aid comfort or support to the enemy is the enemy...in every war...therefore the Palestinians are our enemies...and the enemies of our staunchiest ally in the middle east...Israel... You fought in Vietnam?...I'v often wonderd on whose side...?
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kinda harsh dont you think 9divdoc? not that im defending g-man, but if my sister had been there, yes, id say it was her fault. and again your comparison has cracks and fissures. apples and oranges buddy. Sharon Tate didnt know that her house was a danger to her at that point in time. the kids knew there was a war going on in Israel. see my point? and that Vietnam quip? drop it.
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9divdoc, I think you have g-man and I confused. I'M the 'Nam vet, 100% dis-abled, (PTSD). I know you are a 'Nam vet too, so you got the right to say what you will, (in my book anyway). Just say it to the right person, (check my profile). Remember this. The same brand of people who have made our foreign policy since ww2 are still doing it. In the 'Nam, did you go along with wasting the whole vill?? That's what some are saying we should do in this case.....
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:17:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from garandman -
She went to Israel at a time of almost complete peace. No violence.
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And when would that have been, [b]garandman[/b], I need dates to see the level of violence that was occurring at the time of her visit.
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I've already answered your incessant, pesky questions about your hypothetical about my sister in law. I'm not gonna be cross examined by you, counsellor. This ain't a court of law. Choose to beleive me, or choose NOT to beleive me, then have the cajones to stand by your choice. I'm done with you for this thread, in the interests of community unity, something you, in my judgment care little for.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:21:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kpel308: G-man: EFF the "ergo". I really don't like it when people say "What you really mean is." That, I believe, is unfair to the individual. I very much enjoy reading your posts, and DO want to receive your take on things, and I am NOT bashing you. I would just like you to take a minute and look at your last post and contemplate on if it was fair or not. With respect, Ken Little
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Fair enuf. I used "ergo" as a "therefore" Quite right, I shouldn't put words in his mouth. So I'll say "Ergo, IMO....." Thanks for the correction.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:28:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 7:37:15 AM EDT by liberty86]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from garandman -
Tell me Eric, if I'm supposed to feel outrage at these things, should I feel outrage at the Jews who killed my Saviour, who said "Chrsit's blood be on us, and on our children??" Should I????
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Sure you should. The unfortunate problem that you face is that the particular Jews who said that and who participated in His death are all dead and have been for almost 2000 years. There is no earthly, or heavenly, reason for you to be outraged against their descendants! They had no part in that crime, at all....................... How very 'christian' of you. Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
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Yet this same logic does not apply in our response to 9/11. "Kill 'em all" is the refrain I hear. If American citizens intentionally put themselves in harms way, (There has been a travel advisory out for the whole mid-east ), they, (and we), must be prepared for the consequences.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:39:49 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
You INSIST we must continus funding Israel in their war, as if Americas interests are at stake, and its a necessary part of exacting justice from those repsonsible for Sept.11.
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I insist that what the United States has been doing, and has been doing uninterruptedly since 1967, continue. That is all. If Israel has enemies in other Arab nations, well and good if the US money goes to assist them in opposing those nations. If the threat comes from the West Bank and Gaza, these same US funds may be used to help Israel defend itself. Simple and straightforward.
The ONLY war they are currently fighting is against the Palstinians.
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Nonsense. The 'war' they are fighting is being funded and encouraged by Israel's age-old enemies: Syria, Iraq, and Iran, and, to a lesser extent, by Saudi Arabia.
THAT war IS killing Palestinians.
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Purposefully killing Palestinians that are attacking its soldiers and civilians is exactly what Isarael should be doing. It is what the United States is doing in Afghanistan at this present moment! Are you in favor of killing Afghanis? If you support the US War on Terrorism, then by using your very own logic, you are in favor of killing Afghanis!
Ergo, you want the US to fund the killing of Palestinains.
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Nope. Not true. No more than the US Eighth Air Force was in favor of killing German civilians in WWII. If you asked Gen. LeMay if he wanted only Japanese soldiers and political leaders killed when the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, he would have said 'yes!' If we could have avoided any civilian casualties in WWII, or in any other war in which we have fought, what would the answer of the United States have been? What do you think Israel's answer would be? Do you think that they would have willfully and purposefully wanted the 14 civilans to perish along with the Hamas leader? Here is what Israel's answer has been, is, and always will be: [img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20020805/mdf83290.jpg[/img] Caption: A Palestinian who was injured during a shooting at Jerusalem's Damascus Gate receives first aid Aug. 4, 2002. A Palestinian opened fire at an Israeli telephone company truck in the market in East Jerusalem. Three people, including the gunman, were killed. (Oleg Popov/Reuters)
Your lawyers "legalese" notwithstanding.
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Yeah, whatever. Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:46:19 AM EDT
The Romans may have wished to release Jesus...the fact remains they did not... The most powerful govt the earth has ever seen could do as they pleased and it pleased them to crucify Jesus why? Because God ordained it...they had no choice...and neither did the Jews...and neither do the Palys they will all do as their father the devil does.....Islam is a satanic religion..it denys the deity of Christ..and calls him a liar.. it states he was not crucified and never rose from the dead and that he is equal to mohhamed..where is your righteous indignation at that?.... ...and as far as the Jews killing Christ..they didnt - He Lives...its a good thing they did...for We gained far more in Jesus Christ than we ever lost in Adam..so in essence both the Romans and the Jews did us the greatest favor the universe has ever seen...Thank God for the crucifiction of Jesus...for now is the hour of our salvation... I'm sure the Lord knew well in advance who was going to kill him and why...as he said to Peter...when Peter objected to his impending cruicifiction... Get Behind Me Satan... Jesus forgave the Jews...Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do The fact remains that the Jews belong in Israel and the Palestinans do not...yet the Israelis have offered them time and again a state with conditions they refuse as it is the imperative of Islam to kill all Jews and Christians... They dont want a state they do want to kill all theJews and when they are done with them they want to kill Christians.and Americans.. 9-11 was a declaration of their intent...your precious Palys included... Note to Gman THE JEWS DIDNT KILL JESUS...HE IS ALIVE..HE IS RISEN...HE IS GOD..AND HE IS THE ONLY WAY WHEREBY MAN MUST BE SAVED... So perk up and lets go kill us some terrorists....and let the Israelis do what they must do to perserve their lives and land...
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:53:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: If we could have avoided any civilian casualties in WWII, or in any other war in which we have fought, what would the answer of the United States have been? Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
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I believe there is adequate evidence to support the idea that NATO, (read USA), purposefully targeted civilians in Serbia.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:54:11 AM EDT
Post from liberty86 [
Yet this same logic does not apply in our response to 9/11. "Kill 'em all" is the refrain I hear.
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Then you are simply listening to the wrong folks, I would surmise, my friend.
If American citizens intentionally put themselves in harms way, (There has been a travel advisory out for the whole mid-east ), they, (and we), must be prepared for the consequences.
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Lord have mercy upon us all, [b]liberty86![/b] [u]You[/u], too? Maybe we Americans should just save the other folks on the planet the time and worry of having to hate us and just convert to whatever religion they want us to be. Or no religion. Or whatever they want us to be. And we can only go wherever they want us to go! I would have thought that you, [b]liberty86[/b], of all people would have insisted that we use the same response to Palestinians that President Roosevelt had used to Raisuli! I would have thought that [u]you[/u] would have wished that the United States carried such a big stick in this world that these Palestinian POS terrorists would have gone way out of their way to make absolutely certain that no Americans would be killed or hurt in their outrages! But I suppose I was wrong in believing that! You and Casper Milquetoast can have a fine old time scurrying around the world, genuflecting to our new masters, but I say, if you kill an American, 1,000 of your people will be dead by sundown the next day! And if the miscreants are not brought to the nearest American consulate in chains, we will go into your country to get them ourselves. And you do not want THAT to happen! The Caliph of Morocco understood that back in 1904, but the world has seemed to have lost the value of those old lessons. And it appears that Americans have lost the will to continue to teach those good old lessons! It's time to teach them again, that you do not hurt, harm, kidnap or kill American citizens without consequences in this world! Will you join us? Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:56:16 AM EDT
Post from liberty86 -
I believe there is adequate evidence to support the idea that NATO, (read USA), purposefully targeted civilians in Serbia.
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Please post your evidence for such a statement! I'd be very interested in seeing where that bit of disinformation was found. Eric The(Inquiring)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 7:57:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Because God ordained it...they had no choice...and neither did the Jews...and neither do the Palys they will all do as their father the devil does.....Islam is a satanic religion..it denys the deity of Christ..and calls him a liar.. it states he was not crucified and never rose from the dead and that he is equal to mohhamed..where is your righteous indignation at that?....
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"islam is a satanic religion... it denys the deity of Christ" You hate Palestinians because they believe in God in a different way than you do? 9divdoc, you're messing with the credibility of your previous statements on this and related issues.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 8:02:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By redray:
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Gman I guess if your sister had been killed when she visited Israel it would have been her fault for being there?...this imo is a bit like blaming Sharon Tate for her own murder by being at home the night the Manson family came calling... The Romans crucified Christ why dont you pick on Italians for a while... The Palys are most certainly responsible for 9-11 in the way that all Islam is responsible Hamas , PLO, the PA, Islamic Jihad ,Al-Qaeda ,Black Sept... Lybia, Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, etc etc etc...anyone who gives aid comfort or support to the enemy is the enemy...in every war...therefore the Palestinians are our enemies...and the enemies of our staunchiest ally in the middle east...Israel... You fought in Vietnam?...I'v often wonderd on whose side...?
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kinda harsh dont you think 9divdoc? not that im defending g-man, but if my sister had been there, yes, id say it was her fault. and again your comparison has cracks and fissures. apples and oranges buddy. Sharon Tate didnt know that her house was a danger to her at that point in time. the kids knew there was a war going on in Israel. see my point? and that Vietnam quip? drop it.
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9divdoc, I think you have g-man and I confused. I'M the 'Nam vet, 100% dis-abled, (PTSD). I know you are a 'Nam vet too, so you got the right to say what you will, (in my book anyway). Just say it to the right person, (check my profile). Remember this. The same brand of people who have made our foreign policy since ww2 are still doing it. In the 'Nam, did you go along with wasting the whole vill?? That's what some are saying we should do in this case.....
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This thread is becoming fast and furious...and a bit confusing for my limited mind... IMO the Sharon Tate analogy was spot on..as I consider the deliberated targeting of civilians..who arent masking military targets or being used by terrorists to hide behind not legitimate targets... As far as wasting the "whole ville"...when taking fire from a ville...we let tac air and arty do its thing..I know I did BDA...and as the "Doc" you know who got sent in to care for what was left.. I dont think that kids who go to school in Israel are responsible for their own murders..by terrorists...I blame the murderers in every case and not the victims The Palys have taken the VietCong playbook here..and are deliberately targeting civilians and setting up their positions in the midst of inncents... After seeing the tens of thousands of cheering partying palys passing out candy to their kids...celebrating the deaths of Israeli children...I am sick..of them...and Islam.. and any one who supports this terror and condems Israel in my opinon is an enemy of my country as they have taken up the cause of our enemies. Harsh you say...perhaps so ...but not nearly as harsh as what is to come..from these animals..no that is an insult to animals..these are two legged vermin..and as such need to be destroyed.The terrorists are much like the Manson family murdering in the name of their god..they share the same god..imo...
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 8:08:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 8:36:35 AM EDT by 9divdoc]
Originally Posted By sesat_ram:
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Because God ordained it...they had no choice...and neither did the Jews...and neither do the Palys they will all do as their father the devil does.....Islam is a satanic religion..it denys the deity of Christ..and calls him a liar.. it states he was not crucified and never rose from the dead and that he is equal to mohhamed..where is your righteous indignation at that?....
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"islam is a satanic religion... it denys the deity of Christ" You hate Palestinians because they believe in God in a different way than you do? 9divdoc, you're messing with the credibility of your previous statements on this and related issues.
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Im sure my credibilty has been strained to the limit as far as some will see it...and I screw up alot besides :)... But as far as Islam being a satanic religion I stand by that assessment...there are only two choices in this life..Jesus and death...even Gman knows this to be true... Do I hate Palestinians?...some of them? most of them?....I dont even know any..like Will Rogers all I know is what I read in the papers...And from what I've read..they are probably some of the most vicous people God ever created. I would hate anyone or any culture that murders their own children in order to kill other children..and calls it worshipping the one true god... The bible says those that love death hate God...so if death is your worship then the only god you worship is the anti god imo... I can relate to them as I related to the VC One of my buddies is going back to Vietnam in a month to stay with his VC girlfriend...of course back then we didnt know she was VC...and she isnt now..she was and still is a Buddist (another satanic religion..but no longer violent towards americans per se) The VC got screwed over by the NVA and no longer threaten us so I no longer hate them. Once upon a time I wanted to kill every one of them...as even their kids were killing my guys. They also had no problem murdering civilians including children...yet they had less malice toward life than the palys imo and experience. I imagine the Palys to be somewhat like all people everywhere..the young with nothing to lose make war..while the elderly who have everything to lose are more cautious..Yet they celebrate when their children blow themselves up to kill otthers? .I do know that Islam hates the west...and desires the death of the Jews and Christians ..meaning my kids grandkids neices and nephews. .I also know that the Palestinans take money from other muslims to wrap their children in explosives and send them out to daycares...schools...shopping centers to murder...other children...and then openly brag about it...and celebrate the deaths of innocents. .so what kind of religion would YOU call this...a religion of peace.? ..imo that is the pablam the muslims feed the rest of world to lull them into complacency... like the gang that comes to your house they always send the pleasant member to knock on your door to get you to open it... After 09-11 and the open terror threats including Nuke, BioWar, and Chem I no longer feel any compassion toward any terror groups or the culture that spawns them.. Killing is hard..its a hard thing to live with for some of us...even when that killing is justified.. It is either them or us.... And I vote US These are hard things to reconcile...the bible in the book of Ecclesiastes says there is a time to hate.. God said that he loved Jacob but hated Essau..God says he hates sin..God told the Hebrews on many occasions to wipe their enemies off the face of the earth...men women children and cattle... I would be happy to stop hating terrorists...and murderers and rapists and satanists if they would just stop what they are doing..they stop and I'll stop..
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 8:10:30 AM EDT
Note to self: "It's the Nation of Islam stupid" Can't parse reality, [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 8:21:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: But as far as Islam being a satanic religion I stand by that assessment...there are only two choices in this life..Jesus and death...even Gman knows this to be true...
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Your premise is true, your conclusion false. I no more seek the death of Islaamics for their choice of Islaam than I seek the death of Buddhists for choosing Buddha. Even tho Buddhism WILL lead to the same spiritual death that Islam will. Whether they be Biddhists or Islaamic, I require DIRECT proof of their malfeasance toward America before I can condone them being killed. My message to them is of salvation in Christ Jesus - whther they be Jewish, Buddhist, or Islammic. The death you speak of (as alternative to Christ) is the venue of God alone, and is spiritual in nature. Even if they don't choose Christ, I CANNOT condone their killing WITHOUT DIRECT proof of their SPECIFIC intent to kill Americans. SPECIFIC INTENT by SPECIFIC INDIVDUALS. SOmething more surgical than a nuke. Murdering people becasue they wouldn't accept your "religion" is the trick of the Islaamics of Mohammeds day (and to a MUCH lesser degree, today.) I think of ourselves as Americans as not that barbaric. Being able to exact surgically precise justice IN SPITE OF the "kill 'em all" attack launched against us on Sept 11 is teh ONLY thing that separates us from becoming like Usama himself.
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