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Posted: 8/5/2002 11:38:43 AM EDT
In my experience, most non Jews have developed a totally inaccurate definition of what the phrase "chosen people" means when used to describe the Jews of the world. I've just seen it happen again on another thread; so I'm writing this, so as not to hijack the other thread. First, what the label does NOT mean: It does NOT mean "chosen for special benefits in the world" It does NOT mean "chosen for a special place in Heaven" It does NOT mean "chosen for special favor in the eye of the Almighty" It DOES mean "chosen for the responsibility of bringing the concept of ONE G-D to the world". And that's all it means. We don't seek converts because we don't believe that we have any exclusive path to Heaven. If there is a Heaven (and we don't even preach that there is for sure one), we believe that any rightous individual, no matter what his or her belief, will attain It. An Israeli friend of mine was once heard to utter the prayer, "Next time G-d, please choose somebody else. We've caught enough hell over being chosen the first time." There are days when I totally agree with him.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 11:47:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2002 11:54:10 AM EDT by garandman]
Interesting. And informative. Biblically, "Chosen" means ALL the things you say it doesn't mean. Today, God's ONLY messasge to the world is in Christ Jesus. Any message outside that message is not of God, according to Biblical doctrine. garand(TheInformative)man
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:03:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Interesting. And informative. Biblically, "Chosen" means ALL the things you say it doesn't mean. Today, God's ONLY messasge to the world is in Christ Jesus. Any message outside that message is not of God, according to Biblical doctrine. garand(TheInformative)man
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Garandman, you have very often some very good/informative things to say, but when it comes to this Israeli thing you got to get off the meth.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:06:52 PM EDT
bounty - Sham wanted a discussion. I offer a unique perspective. In fact, I'm the fella he refers to as opening the question in another thread. So, I figger I owe him a response. Beyond that, a Biblical understanding of this issue goes to the very heart of Christianity.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:28:07 PM EDT
I think I'll just sit over here and quietly watch for a while. You know...duck, cover and take an occasional peek.[:D]
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:38:45 PM EDT
I ask the mods to please delete this topic, for if you can allow topics about "Jews" from this perspective, you have to allow topics of a differing viewpoint- Or, about other cultures and races. So, unless this is deleted or locked, expect to see a topic called "Negroes: Why Does God Seem To Hate Them So Much?"
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:44:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:46:23 PM EDT
in before the Armageddon
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:47:27 PM EDT
Taking up on McQueasy's point - How about a thread entitled: How does God feel about Sammy Davis, Jr????? [}:D] THAT's evil!!!!!!!!!!!1
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:48:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McUZI: So, unless this is deleted or locked, expect to see a topic called "Negroes: Why Does God Seem To Hate Them So Much?"
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In advance of your thread, He does seem to keep smiting Sub-Sahara Africa somn' fierce! [BD]
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:49:07 PM EDT
How about a topic on how many marbles Garandman can shove up his arse?
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:49:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
Originally Posted By McUZI: "Negroes: Why Does God Seem To Hate Them So Much?"
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I dare you to make the thread ! [;)]
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I really can't. I promised a friend of mine (Who also happens to be in Texas) that I would stay away from that shit. But you know as well as I do that if I posted that thread, it would cause the chicks-with-dicks on this site to shriek like 6 year old girls. After all. Espousing the virtues of Jews is OK, but pointing out stone cold facts about Negroes is verboten... Eggshells everyone... Walk on eggshells...
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:52:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: How does God feel about Sammy Davis, Jr?????
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Sammy keeps watching God out of the corner of his eye. And I do mean [b][i]EYE[/b][/i] [:p][:D]
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:53:36 PM EDT
Looks like a thread for FULL-AUTO!
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 1:12:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2002 1:13:04 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Chaingun: How about a topic on how many marbles Garandman can shove up his arse?
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Its kinda fun to watch y'all with these fixations about "my arse" or me being someone's concubine. In a twisted sort of way. [:D] garand(NotGoingIntoTheLockerRoomShowerWithYou­Guys-NOWAY!!!)man
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 1:21:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2002 1:22:21 PM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 1:28:46 PM EDT
Just say it, g-o-d. GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD! There is no such thing at G-d! (or GOD for that matter)
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 1:30:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: Just say it, g-o-d. GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD! There is no such thing at G-d! (or GOD for that matter)
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Y-s th-re is s-ch a th-ng as g-d. He rea-ly ex-sts.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 1:41:26 PM EDT
Has this thread gone the way you intended, shamayim?
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 1:46:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter69: Has this thread gone the way you intended, shamayim?
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He's too busy counting his money to reply.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 2:16:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: Just say it, g-o-d. GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD! There is no such thing at G-d! (or GOD for that matter)
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G-d = God???? oh, no wonder im confused. i though he was saying God Damn!
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 2:35:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 2:42:27 PM EDT
while most Northern Europeans were painting themselves blue and howling at the moon while reading the word of their deities in chicken bones.
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In fact, it now looks like the the Church of England has decided to return to that activity in place of the true faith. (the new arch bishop is a druid, like life is some fricking D&D game)
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 2:47:28 PM EDT
I see the show has begun!
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 2:56:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shamayim: In my experience, most non Jews have developed a totally inaccurate definition of what the phrase "chosen people" means when used to describe the Jews of the world. I've just seen it happen again on another thread; so I'm writing this, so as not to hijack the other thread. First, what the label does NOT mean: It does NOT mean "chosen for special favor in the eye of the Almighty"
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Do you accept Strongs dictionary as giving accurate definitions from the original language? It would appear to me, that "chosen does mean "for special favor". [b]Deuteronamy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. 11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. 12 ¶ Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: 13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. 14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. 15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee. 16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.[/b] The Hebrews were chosen as the people from which the messiah would spring. That made them "special". However, they did not acknowledge messiah when He came, so the gentiles were grafted in. The "Christians" are now "G*ds chosen people". You are correct in saying many christians have "a totally inaccurate definition of what the phrase "chosen people" means when used to describe the Jews of the world." Many Christians say the "jews" are still G*ds chosen. NOT! They rejected his son. They also "followed after false gods", just as verse 16 says. They broke the covenant, (read contract). They lost their place....
An Israeli friend of mine was once heard to utter the prayer, "Next time G-d, please choose somebody else. We've caught enough hell over being chosen the first time." There are days when I totally agree with him.
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That IS a good one.....
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 3:01:18 PM EDT
BTW, good post Shamayim, I hope the jerks don't get it locked....
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 3:34:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2002 3:35:56 PM EDT by LWilde]
Liberty Old Boy...I think you have something there... This topic is too hot. I remember what my dear departed mother used to tell me: When in good company, don't discuss sex, politics or religion. Words to live by. This thread is headed for for oblivion. Somebody call an exorcist quick! In before the lock! WADR, LWilde... (Now where is that beer...? I know I set it down around here somewhere!) (Edited 'cause when I swill brews I can't spell worth a damn!)
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 3:49:30 PM EDT
The Jews were God's chosen people, but are no longer. Matt. 23:37,38: " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and the stoner of those sent forth to her,--how often I wanted to gather her chicks together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you." Acts 4:11,12:"[Regarding Jesus Christ, the apostle Peter was moved by holy spirit to say to the Jewish rulers and older men in Jerusalem:] This is 'the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.' Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 3:50:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2002 3:51:53 PM EDT by The-Immortal]
Originally posted by liberty86: I hope the jerks don't get it locked....
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like The_Macallan suggested, if people here want to discuss this on a virtually uncensored board, [url]www.full-auto.com[/url] might be the place -- my one suggestion being: keep it to [b]1[/b] thread out of respect for the owner's need to keep organization.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 4:00:39 PM EDT
In before the lock! [:D] C4
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 4:01:39 PM EDT
[red]It does NOT mean "chosen for special benefits in the world"[/red]No, but God likes to think they are. [red]It does NOT mean "chosen for a special place in Heaven" [/red]Oh really? How about the 144,000 from the 12 tribes? Everyone else getting into heaven is listed as Gentile. [red]Does NOT mean "chosen for special favor in the eye of the Almighty"[/red]God loves you guys a whole lot, why do you think he chilled with ya for so long? Sheesh. [red]It DOES mean "chosen for the responsibility of bringing the concept of ONE G-D to the world".[/red] That is about the most untrue thing I have ever read. That all ended about 2002 years ago. Hey, they added a whole new Testament since that time! You should read it =) [red]We don't seek converts because we don't believe that we have any exclusive path to Heaven. If there is a Heaven (and we don't even preach that there is for sure one), we believe that any rightous individual, no matter what his or her belief, will attain It.[/red] It must REALLY suck to belong to a religion that doesn't answer the questions you might need to know, huh? Bummer. Im only posting in a sarcastic manner because Ive never seen a (supposed) Jew go out that far on a limb and have my doubts about the thread. The world has four major Jewish groups. 1. Religious Jews 2. Atheist Jews 3. Christian Jews 4. Agnostic Jews Which group are you in?
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 4:04:29 PM EDT
You forgot Orange Jews [:D]
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 4:05:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McUZI: He's too busy counting his money to reply.
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Dude, I almost choked. Don't pull any punches!
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 4:06:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: You forgot Orange Jews [:D]
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Is that anything like Orange-Irish?
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 4:12:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter69:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: You forgot Orange Jews [:D]
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Is that anything like Orange-Irish?
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LOL...I'll take that to mean Catholic Jews? Nope, I've never known an observant Jew to convert to being Catholic...But then again, I haven't met every Jew on the face of the Earth. I'm sure there are a few Agnostics who married into a Catholic family, but thats probably about it. Messianic (Christian) Jews are pretty well set =)
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 6:11:51 PM EDT
Sorry I didn't respond to the smart asses sooner, but I've been busy the last few hours, living life with my wife and son. 1) I opened this thread solely because two writers on another thread were talking about the Chosen People thing, and I didn't want to hijack the other thread by getting into it over there. Yes, Garand Man was one of them; I can't recall who the other was. For myself, I don't really care what y'all think about us; just so long as you treat us fairly. 2) McUzi, it takes me about 5 minutes to "count my money". I'm a security officer at a federal agency, I own no stocks or bonds, and my Gentile ex-wife stole all my savings in a divorce 10 years ago. Think I've managed to acquire about two weeks pay in my savings account. But it's OK if you want to think all Jews are rich. You're entitled to be the biggest anal pore around. After all this is America.
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 7:34:08 PM EDT
The Tanakh says that that the Jews were to be a "peculiar people" unto God. Deut. 7:6 26:18 Ps. 135:4 says that Israel will be a "peculiar treasure" The Christian New Testament states in Titus 2:14 and 1Peter 2:9 that the Church is a "peculiar people" to Him. Seems to me that both groups are special and chosen by, for and to God. The Jews were chosen by God and promised certain rewards that are different from the promises he gave to the church. To the Jews he promised an earthly kingdom which would be in the special land he gave to them and that they would be saved and ruled by Him. To the church he promises a heavenly kingdom and that they will be saved by their faith in his son's sacrifice, which was available for all mankind, if they accepted His gift of eternal life through His son Jesus. The way I see it is that the Jews and the church are both God's chosen people. A Jew who chooses to be a part of the body of Christ(Church)will receive the inheritance of "the first son", a double blessing, according to Jewish tradition and custom. To those that claim that the church replaced the Jews as God's chosen people will do themselves a great favor to re-read Paul's definitive statement concerning the church and the Jews. Pauls wrote that yes, they (the Jews) stumbled and "some of the branches" were broken off, but they, if they continue NOT in their unbelief will regrafted into the good olive tree and shall obtain mercy even though "God had committed to disobedience,that he may have mercy on ALL" (Romans 11:32)
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:22:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ELEFTARIA: To those that claim that the church replaced the Jews as God's chosen people will do themselves a great favor to re-read Paul's definitive statement concerning the church and the Jews. Pauls wrote that yes, they (the Jews) stumbled and "some of the branches" were broken off, but they, if they continue NOT in their unbelief will regrafted into the good olive tree and shall obtain mercy even though "God had committed to disobedience,that he may have mercy on ALL" (Romans 11:32)
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Quite right about the church "replacing" Israel. In essence, then "church" was grafted into Israel, becamse part of Israel. Israel continues to exists, and is NOT replaced. (same text you cite, Romans 9-11) The REAL question is in the defintion of "Jew / Israel." re: who is a Jew - [i]Rom 2: 28 - 29 28 For he is [b]not[/b] a Jew, which is one [b]outwardly;[/b] neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/i] (A study of NT circumcision would be profitable in fleshing out your understanding) Jewishness Scripturally is established via relationship to God thru Jesus Chrsit. re: who is Israel. Scripturally, Israel is defined as the descendants of Abraham. [i]Galaltians 3: 16 & 29 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/i] (For you OT buffs, see Psalm 73:1. I have others if you want them) Relationship to Christ gives us relationship as a child of Abraham. Conversely, those NOT in Chrsit are NOT in Abraham.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:48:27 AM EDT
Which basically means, those who have not accepted Jesus as messiah, are not "G*ds chosen. Ergo, the "hebrews" are NOT the "chosen" just for being hebrew. A discussion about "Isreal", "Jew", and "Hebrew", sounds like some REAL entertainment......[:D]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:57:09 AM EDT
It appears to be a good day to be an athiest!
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:58:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Which basically means, those who have not accepted Jesus as messiah, are not "G*ds chosen. Ergo, the "hebrews" are NOT the "chosen" just for being hebrew. A discussion about "Isreal", "Jew", and "Hebrew", sounds like some REAL entertainment......[:D]
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And on the political front, its means were about to go to war for "God's chosen people" when they aren't even God's chosen people. And, spiritually speaking, the ones who ARE God's chosen people are DISPISING their birthright, like Esau of the Old Testament .
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 6:59:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: It appears to be a good day to be an athiest!
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Well, sure TODAY its is. Won't ALWAYS be that way. [:D]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 8:40:34 AM EDT
There is good and evil, Heaven and Hell. One can only come to the Father through the Son. Works, or rightousness will not get you there.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 8:46:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Interesting. And informative. Biblically, "Chosen" means ALL the things you say it doesn't mean.
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This is because you are utterly ignorant of Jewish things... I remind you that Bible was written by Jews...
Today, God's ONLY messasge to the world is in Christ Jesus. Any message outside that message is not of God, according to Biblical doctrine. garand(TheInformative)man
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Bullshit...
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 10:35:14 AM EDT
inb4lock... BTW... shotar, my brother, you have insulted me. You must learn to be more sensitive to us blue bodypainting, moon howlers who DIVINE THE FUTURE from chicken bones. and I quote from the 1st Book of Femur... [i] 1) Hear ye, hear ye if you think it up it must certainly somehow or another be true. 2) Wherin truth is truth even if only one person believeth it it, verily I say unto thee to take up with others who believe the same truth as yourself to fashion a deity from whatever fantastic and terrible mental machinations thou mayest, regardless of alternate belief. [/i] I could go on but I am afraid I would get booted from the The Society of Blue-bodied, Moon howling, Chicken Bone Readers.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 10:53:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: Bullshit...
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Ahhh, you eloquence persuades me. I am converting to Judaism. [}:D] (When "unclean animals" fly!!!!!!!!!) [:D]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 11:35:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2002 11:41:43 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Originally Posted By garandman: [Ahhh, you eloquence persuades me.
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Keep in mind that the guy is Italian. But then, that would be asking you to evaluate the world outside your sphere. [shock] Frankly, I don't see how stories of great floods that wipe out the unholy differ much from foretelling the future with chicken bones.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 11:45:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar: One might be humbled to remember that the Jews were praying to the one true God while most Northern Europeans were painting themselves blue and howling at the moon while reading the word of their deities in chicken bones.
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Ok shotar, Now why do you have to start picking on my religion? [BD]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 12:14:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Originally Posted By garandman: [Ahhh, you eloquence persuades me.
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Keep in mind that the guy is Italian. But then, that would be asking you to evaluate the world outside your sphere. [shock] .
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Paolo made a SINGLE WORD rsponse to my long, thoughtful deatiled post. He responded "Bullshit." Which translates quite well in English AND Italian. As does your insinuation that I'm not "European" enuf. To which I say "Thank God."
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 12:19:44 PM EDT
Awww, come'on be a sport. I was looking forward to a response on the Ark comment. [:D] As for Paolo, I was just making sure you knew...
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 12:22:21 PM EDT
You know, it's perfectly OK with me if some or all Christians want to believe that, through their religious beliefs, they have become "The Chosen People", and while I would make no claim to speak for the majority of Jews I strongly suspect that the majority of Jews would feel the same. Why? Because to us it really doesn't matter. What does matter is what kind of life we live, and how we treat our fellow man. Most Christians express the Golden Rule as; "Love thy neighbor as thyself" Jews don't say it that way. What we do say is; "Do not unto thy neighbor that which is hateful unto thee" That, my friends, is the major difference between Christianity and Judaism. The Christian strives for an ideal which is often impossible to attain in the real world. The Jew is commanded to do something that is attainable. You can hate your neighbor, and still not do him harm, but you may find it impossible to love him. Of course, the unspoken corallary to the Jewish command is that, if you do unto your neighbor that hateful to you thing, you have no complaints if it does come back onto your head. I wish the Palestinians would get that message.
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