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Posted: 8/1/2002 9:58:18 AM EDT
Bunghole's [url=www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=137022]post[/url] on GG&G was locked, and I went to the [url=www.ar15.com/forums/announcement.html?id=25]Forum Conduct Code[/url] to see which rule he had broken. I didn't see any rule that directly had to do with Bunghole's thread. Can anyone point out exactly which rule he broke? If this is an informal, unspoken rule, please let me know.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 10:11:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 10:19:35 AM EDT
[<]:)][violet][size=5]IN BEFORE THE 'OL LOCK![/violet][/size=5] [<]:)]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 10:41:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 11:06:50 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Right or wrong, only [one] side of the story is presented.
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So the policy is that you're not allowed to post regarding [b]any[/b] vendor, advertiser or not, unless you have comm from them and present their side as well? And in Bunghole's case, where he said that he emailed them, but that in a little over a month they couldn't find the time to email him back? If the vendor just [b]doesn't[/b] respond to the customer, what then? You just can't post it? [cough]I disagree strongly with this[/cough]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 10:51:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 10:58:56 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 10:51:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 11:25:40 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 11:08:23 AM EDT
Dude check your IM right quick.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 11:11:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: As I said in the original post, while I do not dispute Bunghole's version of the facts, it is still only [i]his[/i] version. What if the e-mail failed to arrive, or was lost within the company? What if the building burned down? Maybe a major computer crash? Or maybe GG&G is totally at fault. Point is, we [b]don't know[/b] from what was posted.
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How can we [b]ever[/b] know? Is the solution then to gag everyone who has an experience with a business to relate? What if I want to post about a company that went above and beyond the call and really hooked me up? Can I do that on my own hook, or do I have to wait until I have their permission? I understand that you're in the unenviable position of having to defend the policy as laid down by someone else, but I'd like some clarification.
Now, maybe I'm all wrong here, so tell you what I'll do. I'm gonna refer this to the first Staff/Admin that I can find for review. Will that help? Maybe the "B.S." remark at the end of your post is out of line, Jarhead. Would you please edit it?
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Done.
Added: referred to Steve-in-VA for review. Let's all give him a little time to review this thread and the original and give us his findings.
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Sure.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 11:16:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lordtrader: Dude check your IM right quick.
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Right back atcha, brother.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 1:09:06 PM EDT
Let me make sure I'm clear on this policy. If a guy comes onto this site and advertises a bunch of stuff, lets say things like magazines and magazine refinishing just as an example, and this guy takes a bunch of money from list members, takes several hundred dollars worth of pre-ban magazines and then just disappears, nobody is allowed to post anything to the list about it unless he first shows back up to defend himself?
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 1:27:19 PM EDT
If a business is not going to answer e-mail then they should not post their e-mail address or offer online ordering. I order online to avoid the hassles of telephone orders. I can't tell you how many times I've placed an order over the phone only to check on the order and find out that they have no record of it. With an online order there has to be a record stored on their server somewhere.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 1:48:58 PM EDT
I reread my original post and I don't see anything wrong with it. I didn't call them names or say they cheated me or stole from me. Now that I have the product, I am happy with it as I still needed it. I'm not going to ask for a refund and I'm glad they didn't actually ship it Next Day like I had originally requested. This new "policy" needs to have some well defined "borders". Will it be limited to firearms related businesses only? General Discussion is open to any subject. If I am unhappy with the service I receive from an auto dealership will it be verboten to post my experience here. If someone posts any message about any subject that involved more than one party will we first have to get the opinion of all other parties involved so that the actual events can be verified before the message will be acceptable? I'm not trying to stir the pot but this new policy seems like it will be open to widely varied interpretations.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 1:53:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hoplophile: Let me make sure I'm clear on this policy. If a guy comes onto this site and advertises a bunch of stuff, lets say things like magazines and magazine refinishing just as an example, and this guy takes a bunch of money from list members, takes several hundred dollars worth of pre-ban magazines and then just disappears, nobody is allowed to post anything to the list about it unless he first shows back up to defend himself?
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I am with Hoplophile on this one. We are the group of people communicating on this board, while there may be a few vendors who are also here, this is our community, I have to know what is happening, vis-a-vis deal wise with everyone else, good and bad, otherwise this place holds very little for me. I understand (and am slightly disgusted) with the hands-off attitude of the vendors here, just because they also plunk down some money, doesn't mean that they are sacrosanct. Not in my book anyway. I give Juan *wide* latitude in this kind of stuff, but to muzzle people that have had bad business dealings because there is only their side is wrong. We are not going to hear from Paul Podhorn about our magazine debacle as was noted, I think this rule sucks - and needs to be changed.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 2:07:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 2:24:41 PM EDT
Is everyone going to have to start recommending Wolf Ammo now? They are sposors here and get no slack! If we follow the example that is being set we won't be able to comment on [i]lemon[/i] guns or shitty ammo again unless the manufacturer or dealer is here to make a statement on their behalf. Jake
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 2:35:06 PM EDT
You think Todd from Special Weapons would come on here and give the honest truth? I just don't see a future in censoring complain posts. If people get screwed they bitch, if a company doesn't want to get bitched out on the boards, they better bend-the-hell-over to make us, the customers happy. Nothing else is satisfactory.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 2:36:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GSG9: Is everyone going to have to start recommending Wolf Ammo now? They are sposors here and get no slack! If we follow the example that is being set we won't be able to comment on [i]lemon[/i] guns or shitty ammo again unless the manufacturer or dealer is here to make a statement on their behalf. Jake
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From what I have seen, you can comment on any shitty gun that you own unless it was manufactured by Armalite. Bash away at the rest.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 3:47:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 3:56:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Well, let me say this about that... Looks like I was in error in locking the original Bunghole post that spawned this one. Won't be the first screw-up I've made, nor the last, I'm sure. I did what I thought the policy called for me to do, nothing nore or less, and nothing personal. If I've inadverdantly pissed anybody off, I apologize. RAF
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raf, I am quite sure no one is pissed at you(at least about this anyway)[;)]. I think most of us in this thread have a problem with the policy itself. Especially, as it unwritten and vague. If you, as a moderator, can't understand it then it needs to be changed. I should also comment that although the policy is well meaning, it is not very well thought out and prone to abuse.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:00:58 PM EDT
raf, that was nice of you to say. It was a level of discourse not seen here enough. I also think the policy is misguided. The day of something being screwed up by a company with the good track record, fine.....one month of of said company ignoring emails, not fine, that info need to be got out.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 5:00:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hoplophile: Let me make sure I'm clear on this policy. If a guy comes onto this site and advertises a bunch of stuff, lets say things like magazines and magazine refinishing just as an example, and this guy takes a bunch of money from list members, takes several hundred dollars worth of pre-ban magazines and then just disappears, nobody is allowed to post anything to the list about it unless he first shows back up to defend himself?
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No that's not the policy. And NO, we are not trying to chill bona fide complaints. The gravaman of the policy is FAIRNESS. If the vendor never shows up, after a reasonable amount of time, to share his/her side of the story, then the complaint should stand. Raf's call at this stage was the correct one. With that said, I appreciate ALL of the concerns about the policy (less the rhetoric) and we are working on fine tuning a clear rule.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:04:19 PM EDT
Look, there are some gray areas regarding this subject that's why the thread was UNLOCKED very early on. The debate in this thread won't be taken lightly either, what has to be taken into consideration with this 'policy' is what's fair and what's not. When I looked at the post I realized bunghole's tone and made the call to unlock it. However, if it had been somebody just trashing somebody else I mostly likely would've locked it until there was a clearer picture of what the WHOLE story was before whoever was burned at the stake.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 11:30:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 11:46:35 PM EDT by The-Immortal]
for consideration, here's an idea, with openness and fairness as the objective: 1a) Members are allowed (no locks) to report factually about businesses. 1b) Advertisers are allowed (no locks) to report their side of the story. 2) If members lie, they accept AR15.com consequences (conduct code #5: no fraud) and legal consequences. 3) Pissing matches and one-way pissing are prohibited (conduct code #4: no pissing matches). 4a) Members agree to these rules as a requirement for posting here. 4b) Advertisers agree to these rules as a requirement for advertising here. just an idea; if it's bad, my appologies.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 3:27:31 AM EDT
TI, Not bad, actually, some great ideas.
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