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Posted: 7/24/2002 4:46:32 PM EDT
Guys, the Milwaukee Journal has removed the story. This has been out for a few weeks now, sory I am so late in posting it. Anyway, one suicidal knife wielding suspect. Three cops, one of them a guy with just a couple or three years under his belt. The second a 5 year cop, and the third a Sergeant/ supervisor. They shot the guy from 120 feet with a 12ga. beanbag and it did not have any effect. The suspect moves toward the officers, and the young cop, wuth an AR15, shoots him dead. The 5 year cop stated in the interview that she did not fire, because she was giving the supervisor room to shoot him again with another beanbag from a more effective, closer range (like 50 ft). Waukesha County DA Paul Bucher and Grand Jury say it's a good shoot! They talked about training, even referenced the old "see how fast the knife wielder can close on you from 21 ft." exercise. The best part of a fucked up deal: The dead suspects sister is a veteran Milwaukee cop. She says this is a bad shoot, made her claim known in the paper, and is going to sue, sue, sue. Why, oh why, do they get away with this? 120ft. is a long, long way, especially when you already have a long arm trained on the suspect! If anyone else from WI that follows the Journal has this story saved, please post it. Thanks. LEO's, what is your take? Do you agree that 120ft. is too far away, especially when your supervisor is getting ready to hit them with a bean bag when they get closer?
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 4:49:45 PM EDT
damn i didn't even notice this not a peep about it on the radio shows is this going to cause rioting?
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 4:51:12 PM EDT
Not enough information to rule it a good or bad shoot from what you provided, though 120' is a long way off.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 4:54:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By anti-gov-tinfoil-man: damn i didn't even notice this not a peep about it on the radio shows is this going to cause rioting?
View Quote
Nah. This was in Waukesha County. I had been reading the stories on jsonline.com earlier in the week, then the thread about cops getting AR's reminded me of it. I went back to look....it's gone. No archives that I can see.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:15:20 PM EDT
I don't know the circumstances of that incident, but it makes me wonder how off this senario would be. You're out in the woods behind your friends house chopping firewood. It's pretty far and you can't see the house from where you are at. Your friend loads up the wood on the four wheeler and heads back to the house. You walk back with your ax, idly swinging it, listening to your walkman. His neighbor get's home, doesn't see him but sees you and calls the cops. They arrive seconds later (don't they always when it helps to advance a contrived story). They don't see anyone but you swinging an ax. They get nervous grap their brand new AR-15 and shout stop, put down the weapon from 250 meters away. You don't stop. They shoot. You die. I'm not a cop hater. I want them/ you to have the best equipment possible to do a job that frankly I don't want to do. The bad guys have a lot of money and are more than willing to spend it in new a creative ways to end your interferance in their business (usually meaning your death). I can't imagine the damage that it does to your personality to deal with the bad guys day in and day out. I've seen a disturbing trend where the regular police departments have become enamored with SWAT tactics. Every swingin' pecker wants to be a bad @ss delta force ranger force recon recondo machine gun firin tango bustin mad max rambo terminator. What is up with you people??? But, you are not the army, marines, rangers, special forces, force recon, or pick your own favorite Oh-Aa team. Otherwise, thank you for doing a difficult job under impossible circumstances all the while being constantly harrassed by people who know better than you how to do your job.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:30:38 PM EDT
An incident nearly identical to this occurred 15 miles from my home just a few months ago in Douglas County, WI., at a place called the "Manitou Bar". Three officers tried to subdue a knife wielding man who had entered with a handgun and told the bartender to clear everyone out because he was going to kill himself. The bartender called 911 on his cell phone. They officers entered and tried talking him out. They shot him twice with bean bags but he continued to charge at them with a knife and a Sheriff's deputy had to shoot him. The found the handgun resting on top of a pay phone, apparently the man had tried calling his ex. It was later revealed that the man was on numerous medications for depression and had attempted suicide before. After an investigation the authorities ruled it as a clean shoot. Most people who knew him feel that he intentionally tried to make the police kill him (suicide by cop) and do what he couldn't bring himself to do.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:33:22 PM EDT
The full story was posted on TFL: [url]http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121240&highlight=120+feet+knife[/url]
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 4:28:36 AM EDT
OK, that thread at The Firing Line was really enlightening. Like the fact that the other officers were in much more immediate danger. I am glad some of the LEO's over there spoke up. The Journal really spun that story, and I got taken! Given the facts AS REPORTED, it seemed fishy, but was not at all. I had never heard it called "The Urinal" before either.....how appropriate.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:13:11 AM EDT
The suspect even after being shot could have advanced with the knife and stabbed or cut someone.. Dont you try this at home however...at least at that distance
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:34:00 AM EDT
I am not a police officer but I have been a few scuffles in my day, yes some against weapons. I think, unless the guy had a knife threatening to kill a hostage or something along that line, shooting him from any distance over 20 feet is over kill. So what if he didn't respond to bean bag at distance? I am of the oppinion, that if you have someone out gunned ie a knife at 100+ feet versus any fire arm, the firearm should be used as a last resort. Most of the police officers I know are trained in less than lethal methods of disarming individuals, busting the pumpkin with a AR-15 is not less than lethal.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:42:26 AM EDT
21 ft. is the distance that most people are told. Because a knife wielding person of avg. skill can close and hit, or nearly hit the avg person trying to draw a firearm. I have no knowledge of this incident. One of the posters on the link says that most bean bag rounds are only effective to about 60 ft, and rubber ball is only effective to 30 ft. I don't have any first hand knowledge about that either. If those ranges are true, than the rifle officer was providing cover for the officer(s) deploying the bean bags/rubber ball. If they shot the guy with L-T-L, and had time to determine it was not effective, and he was continuing to close in. How far was he from THOSE officers when the cover officer fired?
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:51:14 AM EDT
The perp was clearly insane. Who the hell continnues to threaten witha knife after being bean bagged by the cops, particularly when there are three of them, one armed with a rifle? Just gene pool enhancement IMHO.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:52:33 AM EDT
Why is it that the family only expresses concern after the person is dead? They knew about his condition and did nothing or not enough about it. When the police finally confront a person in this position they are not given a lot of options. Now the "very caring and concerned" family will sue. [:|]
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:07:36 AM EDT
That's what the guy gets for bringing a knife to a gunfight...
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:34:16 AM EDT
HUMPH! T.J.Hooker would have shot the knife out of the bad guys hand, then rescued a puppy from a burning building, and then stop a mugger!
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:50:30 AM EDT
Life is cheap until its yours or your family members, then it doesn't seem so cheap.
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